Remark by Jaime's aunt Genna about Tyrion

[The Hammer of Justice]

I think not even Tywin knows the truth of it, whether Tyrion is his son or Aerys' son, and that is probably the source of his hostility towards him

And about Genna's quote, it is purely a comparison between personalities

[Makk]

35 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

And about Genna's quote, it is purely a comparison between personalities

Sure Genna's comment was. But what about Tywins reaction?

[Orphalesion]

4 hours ago, Makk said:

Sure Genna's comment was. But what about Tywins reaction?

He doesn't like Tyrion, so somebody telling him that Tyrion has more in common with him than Jaime does would make him angry.

[Dofs]

12 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Correct, and Jaime no longer cares. His desire for honour, to do the right thing is no longer about perception, it's simply for himself.

That's not true, Jaime cares and cares a lot. He also wants to be loves and accepted by people as Tyrion does but unlike Tyrion he keeps it strictly personal and does not allow it to affect his judgement. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice this wish for what he thinks needs to be done.

[ravenous reader]

12 hours ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

about Genna's quote, it is purely a comparison between personalities

No it's not; it's ambiguous.

If you like A+J=T, then you'll favor reading it as 'purely a comparison between personalities.'

If you don't like A+J=T, and perhaps prefer A+J=J+-C, then you'll tend to read it as a more literal insinuation, namely that only Tyrion is the biological son of Tywin, while Jaime isn't.

17 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

And personality traits are not genetic.

This is not true.  To date, there is mounting scientific evidence that estimates up to 50% of our personality traits are conferred genetically (so about the same as the environmental contribution).  Even if you argue about the magnitude of the relative nature vs. nurture contributions, to say there's no genetic contribution to personality is patently false.

19 hours ago, Makk said:

There is simply not enough information to make that statement. Not only is the world of ice and fire (which I presume is what you are talking about) imprecise and biased towards avoiding scandal to the Lannisters, it doesn't even say that. It says Joanna "seldom" visited Kings landing, not "never". Nor does it ever say Aerys never visited Casterly Rock, nor that they were never in some other place at the same time in that period. By your same logic Tywin couldn't have sired Jaime and Cersie because he was living in Kings Landing.

IMO both Aerys and Tywins reactions towards the twins and Tyrion make a lot more sense if the suspicion rests on Jaime and Cersei. 

Great logic.  And as you point out, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  It's fashionable to say that Aerys and Joanna could've never been in the same place in the timeframe necessary for the twins' conception and therefore that that theory is 'thoroughly debunked.'

But 'seldom' is not equal to 'never' -- so that's less than a thorough debunking!

[Orphalesion]

37 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

This is not true.  To date, there is mounting scientific evidence that estimates up to 50% of our personality traits are conferred genetically (so about the same as the environmental contribution).  Even if you argue about the magnitude of the relative nature vs. nurture contributions, to say there's no genetic contribution to personality is patently false.

 

At most I will concede to tendencies and some mental illnesses being genetic, but not to bullcrap like "Cersei and Jaime started their incest because they are secret Targaryens" or "The Boltons are genetically evil".

[Cridefea]

On 16/3/2017 at 5:45 PM, Greywater-Watch said:

Dear members, this question has probably already been discussed. Re-reading AFFC I stumbled over a remark by Genna Lannister (while she meets Jaime at the siege of Riverrun, the chapter right before "Cat of the Canals").

At the end of their discussion they talked about Tywin:

"Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son." "Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most in truth." That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?" "Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. [...] but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. [...]."

What to make of this? Does Genna refer to Tyrion's character or does she hint at something as deep as that someone else fathered Jaime and Cersei (King Aerys)?

I think the second part means that Tyrion is more similar to Tywin than Jaime. What I find more ambiguous is "That is what I fear the most in truth"  what does she mean? what does she fear the most? Why? I think she fears that Jaime, feeling the weight of being Tywin's son, will act like his father even if he is different, dooming himself to be someone else. Indeed, later, Jaime acts like his father with Edmure, even if for a good purpose (prevent a bloodbath). Funny thing is that he plays that role because of Genna's words.  But that is just my interpretation.

[Dofs]

28 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I think the second part means that Tyrion is more similar to Tywin than Jaime. What I find more ambiguous is "That is what I fear the most in truth"  what does she mean? what does she fear the most? Why? I think she fears that Jaime, feeling the weight of being Tywin's son, will act like his father even if he is different, dooming himself to be someone else. Indeed, later, Jaime acts like his father with Edmure, even if for a good purpose (prevent a bloodbath). Funny thing is that he plays that role because of Genna's words.  But that is just my interpretation.

I think she fears that there is no one who would protect Lannisters after Tywin's death. She thought that Tyrion would be able to do it and not Jaime who is according to her not politically savvy enough. 

[TheCarWolf]

2 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I think the second part means that Tyrion is more similar to Tywin than Jaime. What I find more ambiguous is "That is what I fear the most in truth"  what does she mean? what does she fear the most? Why? I think she fears that Jaime, feeling the weight of being Tywin's son, will act like his father even if he is different, dooming himself to be someone else. Indeed, later, Jaime acts like his father with Edmure, even if for a good purpose (prevent a bloodbath). Funny thing is that he plays that role because of Genna's words.  But that is just my interpretation.

I always thought she meant she feared Tyrion in general.  Due to how he was treated by his family.  That he would try to come back and destroy anyone that treated him unfairly, and do it in a very Tywin manner.

[Cridefea]

On 17/3/2017 at 8:30 PM, Dofs said:

I think she fears that there is no one who would protect Lannisters after Tywin's death. She thought that Tyrion would be able to do it and not Jaime who is according to her not politically savvy enough. 

 

On 17/3/2017 at 11:08 PM, TheCarWolf said:

I always thought she meant she feared Tyrion in general.  Due to how he was treated by his family.  That he would try to come back and destroy anyone that treated him unfairly, and do it in a very Tywin manner.

yes, these are other valid options of what she could fear....

[Aegon VII]

Perhaps it's been mentioned, but I always view this scene as evidence towards Tyrion actually being Tywin's when evaluating if A+J=T.

[BricksAndSparrows]

For all the talk about Tyrion being a secret Targaryen, I've always thought Jamie and Cersei were Aerys'. I think that's why Tywin hates him so much. It's shameful to him that the ONE that is his (I don't think he had ever admitted the secret bastardy of J&C to himself, but knows, deep down,) is a twisted creature like Tyrion. 

[velo-knight]

On 3/16/2017 at 10:51 PM, Smirking Knight said:

To me there is much more support for the twins being Aerys' kids than Tywin's. Their incestual attraction to one another, for one thing, and Cersei obviously growing madness are the two biggest clues. It's significant that only Cersei is showing signs of madness - as people have pointed out, whenever a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin. It came up non-madness for Jaime and madness for Cersei. Her descent will likely even follow the same path as Aerys' - paranoia, suspicion, a love of burning things. Her captivity with the Faith mirrors the Defiance of Duskendale and foretells that it'll get even worse in the near future. 

Tendency towards incest is not genetic. Most personality traits are not genetic, even when they are inheritable.

The Targaryen family is not more prone to mental illness than the general population, or especially the population of people with high expectations, pressures, and unusual privileges.

On 3/17/2017 at 0:04 PM, ravenous reader said:

No it's not; it's ambiguous.

If you like A+J=T, then you'll favor reading it as 'purely a comparison between personalities.'

If you don't like A+J=T, and perhaps prefer A+J=J+-C, then you'll tend to read it as a more literal insinuation, namely that only Tyrion is the biological son of Tywin, while Jaime isn't.

And if I think T+J = T; and T+J = C&J? It seems to be a shrewd character observation more than anything else.

On 3/17/2017 at 0:04 PM, ravenous reader said:

This is not true.  To date, there is mounting scientific evidence that estimates up to 50% of our personality traits are conferred genetically (so about the same as the environmental contribution).  Even if you argue about the magnitude of the relative nature vs. nurture contributions, to say there's no genetic contribution to personality is patently false.

By definition, nurture falls outside "genetics". Traits can be inherited without being genetic. I'm skeptical of the claim that personality traits are even close to 50% genetic; but it's well known that people can resemble their parents in personality.

On 3/17/2017 at 0:04 PM, ravenous reader said:

Great logic.  And as you point out, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  It's fashionable to say that Aerys and Joanna could've never been in the same place in the timeframe necessary for the twins' conception and therefore that that theory is 'thoroughly debunked.'

But 'seldom' is not equal to 'never' -- so that's less than a thorough debunking!

Fair enough. The only thing that really seems to work for Tyrion being a Targaryen for me is that possibility of him being a Dragonrider. The big counter to his, again to my eyes, is Moqorro's prophecy about dragons, with him snarling like a lion in the middle.

[Dofs]

3 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

For all the talk about Tyrion being a secret Targaryen, I've always thought Jamie and Cersei were Aerys'. I think that's why Tywin hates him so much. It's shameful to him that the ONE that is his (I don't think he had ever admitted the secret bastardy of J&C to himself, but knows, deep down,) is a twisted creature like Tyrion. 

But then Tywin's insistence on Jaime inheriting doesn't make sense.

[lancerman]

In my mind it's a double meaning. Realistically Gemma would have no idea whether Jamie and Cersie were not Tywin's biological kids. She probably meant it strictly to mean that Tyrion has Tywin's mind and temperament, while Jamie is his own person. 

But it's also probably a hint that we may or may not find out that Jamie and Cersie are actually not his biological children. Cersie and Joffrey were both mad like Aerys. Jamie seems to be more of a fun loving free spirit. The ultimate irony of the Lannister family would be if the two kids who were outwardly perfect but had severe personality issues were not Tywins kids. And the intelligent son he rejected who was disfigured ended up being his only true son.

[Makk]

7 minutes ago, Dofs said:

But then Tywin's insistence on Jaime inheriting doesn't make sense.

Not really if you consider he is suspicious of Jaime and Cercei's birth but doesn't know for sure and then at the same time being terribly embarrassed about Tyrion.

[lancerman]

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

But then Tywin's insistence on Jaime inheriting doesn't make sense.

It doesn't ultimately matter. For all intents and purposes, Jamie and Cersie are his children. They are also the blood of his wife who are related to him. In Tywin's mind, it's probably better for the Lannister name if the handsome brave knight were to inherit his family lineage than sticking the family's future and Tywin's legacy under a deformed imp. 

He simply just might not care as long as his family legacy is protected.

[Dofs]

It did not strike me that Tywin who is a massive classicist would allow a bastard to be his heir. The fact that suspicions of Jaime not being his son would not stop him from doing anything to make his his heir, or him still considering Jaime as his just because he is a son of Johanna - these are simply invented explanations to make the theory seem true. There are no hints that Tywin would be fine with it in the books.

[snow is the man]

I always took it to mean tyrion had more of his father's traits then jaime and cersei. Tyrion is extremly intelligent,clever,ambitious,and can be ruthless if he has to be (Though not at tywins level or as extreme). I heard somewhere that tyrion was suupossed to be aery's son. I mean one of the fan theories

[snow is the man]

Wait that wouldn't make any sense. If jaime and cersei were aery's kids then the whole idea that ned stark and the others who suspected that all of cersei's kids were from jaime not robert because of the blond hair and such. Also the targeryans weren't the only one to do incest just the only ones that it was not frowned upon. Also isn't tywin and joanne lanister cousins?