Greywater-Watch

Remark by Jaime's aunt Genna about Tyrion

51 posts in this topic

True Tywin says that Tyrion is not his son, he also says that he is his son and a Lannister.  The interesting thing to me is that both Tyrion and Jaime saved King's Landing.  And neither of them were recognized for it.

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5 hours ago, Dofs said:

It did not strike me that Tywin who is a massive classicist would allow a bastard to be his heir. The fact that suspicions of Jaime not being his son would not stop him from doing anything to make his his heir, or him still considering Jaime as his just because he is a son of Johanna - these are simply invented explanations to make the theory seem true. There are no hints that Tywin would be fine with it in the books.

It's a world where you can't definitively prove parentage. So even if Tywin suspects it, it's not like he can just claim it. He'd be claiming that:

1. He got cuckolded. Which makes him look bad, makes his wife look bad, makes his house look bad, makes two kids that he can't prove aren't his either way possible abominations, and forces him to name the most undesirable child of his wife to true heir. 

2. Now he's calling his king an adulterer and the father of two bastards, which he again can't prove definitively. And it's something Aerys could find as treasonous. 

And similarly to your explanation that there is no proof in the books that Tywin would be okay with it, there's no proof he wouldn't. At best Tywin's entire basis for thinking that, if he does at all, is almost entirely based in suspicion and not actual confirmation of fact. So if he turned out to be wrong, then he's bypassing his son who is one of the best knights of his generation and one of the most desirable men in Westeros for an imp who would make his house a laughing stock. Even if he kinda thinks it, going with Jamie is still the overall smarter thing for his house in the future. 

Even if Tywin believed in his heart of hearts that Jamie was 100% not his son, what do you think his actual options are? Because nobody else would know but him, he has no proof, and it puts Tyrion as his sole heir. Tywin is not a classicist to the extent of Stannis. He is a man whose sole objective is the strength of his house. I mean come on, Tywin's a pretty smart man, who had to know what happened with Jamie and Cersie when they were kids, he heard the rumors, he knows about Robert's bastards, even if he denies it he can put two and two together. He just turns a blind eye because Joffrey and Tommen as King is better for House Lannister. And if Tywin were that much of a classicist, well Jamie's a Kingsguard, he wouldn't exactly be putting all his eggs into getting his son out of a life vow for one of the most high profile and honorable positions in the kingdom.

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6 hours ago, lancerman said:

And similarly to your explanation that there is no proof in the books that Tywin would be okay with it, there's no proof he wouldn't.

That's not how it works. If I claim that there is no evidence that Hot Pie isn't a long lost child of Jon Arryn, would my claim have any merit? No, it wouldn't because I took it out of thin air. The same way with Tywin knowing that the twins are not his (I am willing to concede that there are instances that can be interpreted as if twins are from Aerys), it is all baseless, taken out of thin air, with no indication in the books whatsoever. 

6 hours ago, lancerman said:

And if Tywin were that much of a classicist, well Jamie's a Kingsguard, he wouldn't exactly be putting all his eggs into getting his son out of a life vow for one of the most high profile and honorable positions in the kingdom.

Tywin's classicism is indicated in his complete contempt of people of lower social class - of peasants and surely bastards. Tywin doing everything so that a bastard, not even his or of another Lannister (all inheritance goes through a male line) would become a Lord of Casterly Rock makes no sense. Tywin being so insistent for it to be exactly this bastard and not his brother, his children or even Tyrion with whom he was fine to inherit in GoT because he believed that Jaime might not survive makes no sense. 

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16 hours ago, Dofs said:

But then Tywin's insistence on Jaime inheriting doesn't make sense.

I don't think Tywin ever admitted it to himself. But on some deeper level, he knew... That's my feeling about it. I say this because I really feel there was a lot more to the man than what was presented on the surface. I'm sure a psychiatrist would have a field day with him, especially in regard to taking Shae into his bed.

 

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15 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

True Tywin says that Tyrion is not his son, he also says that he is his son and a Lannister.  The interesting thing to me is that both Tyrion and Jaime saved King's Landing.  And neither of them were recognized for it.

hah I never though to make that connection. And both were treated worse afterwards.

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I believe in the theory about the true Tyrion's parentage, but when Genna says to Jaime he's not Twyin's son she's not saying that in a literal sense. She's just saying that Jaime has none of the personalities traits that Twyin has. That's all, we have to stop over analysing every single line of the books. Sometimes it's just simple. 

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6 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I don't think Tywin ever admitted it to himself. But on some deeper level, he knew... That's my feeling about it. I say this because I really feel there was a lot more to the man than what was presented on the surface. I'm sure a psychiatrist would have a field day with him, especially in regard to taking Shae into his bed.

 

I just genuinely don't understand from where this "Tywin deep down knew" comes from. Because it certainly doesn't come from the books. Sure, there is definitely more to Tywin, but just from that you conclude that Tywin "deep down knew"?

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14 hours ago, Dofs said:

That's not how it works. If I claim that there is no evidence that Hot Pie isn't a long lost child of Jon Arryn, would my claim have any merit? No, it wouldn't because I took it out of thin air. The same way with Tywin knowing that the twins are not his (I am willing to concede that there are instances that can be interpreted as if twins are from Aerys), it is all baseless, taken out of thin air, with no indication in the books whatsoever. 

Tywin's classicism is indicated in his complete contempt of people of lower social class - of peasants and surely bastards. Tywin doing everything so that a bastard, not even his or of another Lannister (all inheritance goes through a male line) would become a Lord of Casterly Rock makes no sense. Tywin being so insistent for it to be exactly this bastard and not his brother, his children or even Tyrion with whom he was fine to inherit in GoT because he believed that Jaime might not survive makes no sense. 

Tywin has a sister who point blank said Jamie isn't his son, whether that was figurative or not. He knew Aery's had a thing for his wife. He knew Aery's wife kicked Joanna out of court. Aery's made a comment about nursing children ruining Joanna's breasts, it was enough of a slight to outrage Tywin to leave the court. It's not like there is nothing there. He knows there are rumors of his children practicing incest (he likely knows their were similar issues at Casterly Rock). He knows that his grandson was mad and drew comparisons from several characters to the Mad King, a person Tywin is all to familiar with. There  Maybe you could argue Tywin doesn't know for sure, but it's very possible the seed of that is in his mind. Maybe it's not either. But it isn't entirely baseless to say their are enough bread crumbs for him to see the possibility. 

As far as everything else. Tywin is so against Tyrion being his heir and ruining his legacy that he wants his firstborn son who is regarded as a kingslayer to forsake one of the most honorable life vows in the seven kingdom. Tywin in that same situation outright told Tyrion he would never allow him to inherit Casterly Rock. He has a serious disdain for Tyrion. He has a serious image issue with the projection of power on his house. And again Tywin would never be able to 100% prove Jamie isn't his son, just like he wouldn't be able to prove Tyrion is. So even if he suspects something, Jamie is still far and away the better option in his eyes. And to the whole world Jamie will never be regarded as anything other than Tywin's son.

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17 hours ago, Dofs said:

I just genuinely don't understand from where this "Tywin deep down knew" comes from. Because it certainly doesn't come from the books. Sure, there is definitely more to Tywin, but just from that you conclude that Tywin "deep down knew"?

No. Not just from that.

The idea that Tyrion is a Targ, or Jamie and Cersei, is all speculation. Of course it's not spelled out, or we wouldn't be talking about this at all. 

I can speak about why I think Jamie and Cersei are Aerys' bastard's, but it would be in terms no more impressive than what you can find in the numerous threads on this site and online. So I'll just skip to why I draw my conclusion of Tywin knowing "deep down."

I should say first that I don't feel I need to explain why Tywin would have reason to suspect something. Word of Aerys' feelings towards Johanna were a topic of gossip. The notorious wedding grope could easily have came to Tywin's attention. In short, there isn't much that causes the readers to suspect, that would be unreasonable to believe Tywin was aware of, also. 

I believe Tywin suspects for the same reason the readers do..

So the reason for my "deep down," comment is to try and explain why Tywin hates Tyrion so, while simultaneously not taking some sort of action against his twins. I think the guy is in denial. It burns him up when he imagines that Tyrion is the only manifestation of his legacy (something he is obsessed with.)

My reasoning is an attempt to explain what you also found as a discrepancy "Why not disinherit Jamie?" Because, it would mean admitting why. 

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2 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

 

I believe Tywin suspects for the same reason the readers do..

 

There are readers who suspect that Euron Grejoy and Daario Naharis are the same person. There seems to be the same amount of evidence from the books for this theory and 'Tywin just knowing' does not really cut the mustard

 

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It burns him up when he imagines that Tyrion is the only manifestation of his legacy

It can't burn him up too much, otherwise he would have remarried.

 

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So the reason for my "deep down," comment is to try and explain why Tywin hates Tyrion so,

We know why Tywin disliked his son. He is a public embarrassment who enjoys rebelling against his father and put the life of a whore ahead of Tywin's own grandsons. The text is quite clear on why Tywin is not impressed with Tyrion. 

When named Hand, given the keys to the Kingdom so to speak, Tywin asked one thing from Tyrion; to not bring the whore he had just met to Kings Landing with him as his paramour. Tyrion ignores this order, shows how little respect he has for father. Which other son, when given such an opportunity would do that to their Lord and father?

The readers like Tyrion because he rebels against his father and family, something we see as a natural rite of passage. In Westeros it is not, sons are usually like Robb and Quentyn. They obey their fathers. 

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1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I should say first that I don't feel I need to explain why Tywin would have reason to suspect something

What I feel you need to is to show is evidence about Tywin suspecting in the first place, not about a reason to do it. Something from his quotes, actions, his behaviour towards the twins that would give away his suspicions. When George is planning for some drastic twist, he usually puts hints in advance so that the twist doesn't come out of the blue, so I would think that Tywin suspecting something would be showcased by something. And considering that Tywin is dead, there is no opportunity to show this suspicion in future books, so there should be something already. 

2 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I should say first that I don't feel I need to explain why Tywin would have reason to suspect something. Word of Aerys' feelings towards Johanna were a topic of gossip. The notorious wedding grope could easily have came to Tywin's attention. In short, there isn't much that causes the readers to suspect, that would be unreasonable to believe Tywin was aware of, also. 

The logic here is flawed. The notorious wedding grope happened 2 or 3 years before the twins were born and we were told that just after the wedding Johanna left to CR and seldom visited KG. The only time we are told of Johanna visiting KG is many years after the birth of the twins, shortly before Tyrion's birth and there was no information about Aerys visiting CR at that time. In fact we have no information at all about what happened between the time when Johanna returned to CR and visited KG and so it cannot be claimed that Tywin had a reason to suspect anything because this reason is not given to us. And Tywin surely can't suspect that Jaime and Cersei are not his purely because something weird might have happened 3 years before their birth. Women don't stay pregnant for this long.

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