Coolbeard the Exile Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 House Lannister is the wealthiest house yet they have a very small fleet. Why is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Well Euron's idea carried out by Victarion (I think that could be wrong) iron born burned their fleet Still odd Lord Tywin didn't rebuild better than ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philpenn Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Pure speculation: Tywin knew he could just use the Redwyne fleet whenever he needed, and mayhaps even felt one was beneath him? Let wine peddlers, and reavers deal with ships kind of deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: Well Euron's idea carried out by Victarion (I think that could be wrong) iron born burned their fleet Still odd Lord Tywin didn't rebuild better than ever George said that Tywin rebuilt the fleet but it only is like 50 ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 From SSM: SEPTEMBER 26, 1999 THE LANNISTER FLEET Mr. Martin, we found it peculiar that Tyrion considered the importance of the Greyjoy fleet in aCoK (when Balon's message reached him in KL), since he never thinks about the West's own naval strength and it's usefulness against the Starks. So we began to doubt said strength. Did Tywin ever rebuild the Lannister fleet, after Euron burned it eight years ago? And if he rebuilt it, did he ever appoint a permanent commander of this fleet? Yes, Lord Tywin certainly replaced the ships that were lost. However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros. The lords whose lands abut the coast of the Sunset Sea all keep a war galley or three about for coastal defense, and of course those shores are home to scads of fishing boats as well. The Lannisters have a larger and much grander fleet, but we're still only talking about twenty to thirty ships, perhaps. To fight a major battle, they would call the ships of their various bannermen, just as Stannis summoned the lords of the narrow sea for the battle on the Blackwater. For what it's worth, however, their ships would be larger and more formidable than the longships of the ironmen -- cogs, carracks, and war galleys of various sides, up to the great dromonds with scorpions and catapults on deck. The Tyrells are in more or less the same position as the Lannisters, though they depend even more on their bannermen, especially the lords of the Shield Islands off the mouth of the Mander. The Hightowers have only a few warships, but control Oldtown, home to numerous trading vessels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: From SSM: SEPTEMBER 26, 1999 THE LANNISTER FLEET Mr. Martin, we found it peculiar that Tyrion considered the importance of the Greyjoy fleet in aCoK (when Balon's message reached him in KL), since he never thinks about the West's own naval strength and it's usefulness against the Starks. So we began to doubt said strength. Did Tywin ever rebuild the Lannister fleet, after Euron burned it eight years ago? And if he rebuilt it, did he ever appoint a permanent commander of this fleet? Yes, Lord Tywin certainly replaced the ships that were lost. However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros. The lords whose lands abut the coast of the Sunset Sea all keep a war galley or three about for coastal defense, and of course those shores are home to scads of fishing boats as well. The Lannisters have a larger and much grander fleet, but we're still only talking about twenty to thirty ships, perhaps. To fight a major battle, they would call the ships of their various bannermen, just as Stannis summoned the lords of the narrow sea for the battle on the Blackwater. For what it's worth, however, their ships would be larger and more formidable than the longships of the ironmen -- cogs, carracks, and war galleys of various sides, up to the great dromonds with scorpions and catapults on deck. The Tyrells are in more or less the same position as the Lannisters, though they depend even more on their bannermen, especially the lords of the Shield Islands off the mouth of the Mander. The Hightowers have only a few warships, but control Oldtown, home to numerous trading vessels Sure i have read that but it dosn't explain why the wealthiest and most powerful house dosn't have a fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, Coolbeard the Exile said: Sure i have read that but it dosn't explain why the wealthiest and most powerful house dosn't have a fleet. They have... And it's spelled doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Because you don't need a permanent fleet? Aside of the Iron Throne, which has the Royal Navy to secure the seas from piracy in the Narrow Sea, and the Redwyne Fleet exists to protect trade in the Summer Sea. The only pirates on the Sunset Sea are the Ironborn, and they usually go for Essos, and have not raided the mainland aside of during the handfull of Ironborn rebellions over the past 300 years. During the first and second Greyjoy Rebellions of Balon Greyjoy, the go-to option is to use the Royal Fleet and the Redwyne Fleet to crush the Ironborn. A century prior during Dagon Greyjoy's days, the Roual Navy was focused on Essos due to the Blackfyres, and the Redwyne Fleet was also not moving anywhere, despite being attacked by Ironborn (perhaps it suffered a surprise attack at the Arbor during Daron's attack there?). The Lannisters built a fleet and the Starks added fighters to their numbers for an attack on the Iron Islands. A century before that during the Dance, the Ironborn under Dalton Greyjoy managed to snag Fair Isle and raid the Westerlands because the realm was in a massive civil war. When it was finished, the Lannisters were aided by a fleet from the Reach to invade the Iron Islands, to partial success. So during the course of 300 years, the Greyjoys rose 4 times in rebellion. The first time was after over a century of peace. They managed to hurt the Lannisters, but the Lannisters managed to overturn the early defeats with the fleet of the Reach. The second time was after another century, during which the Ironborn managed to do far less to the Westerlands, and the Lannisters built a fleet to transport thier and the Stark's armies to invade the Iron Islands again. The third time was after close on a century later, where the Lannisters again suffered to the Ironborn raids, but the rebellion was quickly crushed by the Royal and Reach's fleets. The fourth time was over a decade later ,and the Ironborn did not bother to touch the Lannsiters even with most of thier forces away. Again, the fleets of the Reach and the crown are here to deal with the Ironborn. So why should the Lannisters invest in a large permanent fleet and maintain it for a century, if they are going to end up defeating their foes anyway? A surprise attack could destroy a large fleet just as well as a smaller one, and it is bloody expensive to keep a large war fleet for no reason. The Westerlands are a land power, they have a small naval force that can be rapidly expanded when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Nyrhex said: Because you don't need a permanent fleet? Aside of the Iron Throne, which has the Royal Navy to secure the seas from piracy in the Narrow Sea, and the Redwyne Fleet exists to protect trade in the Summer Sea. The only pirates on the Sunset Sea are the Ironborn, and they usually go for Essos, and have not raided the mainland aside of during the handfull of Ironborn rebellions over the past 300 years. During the first and second Greyjoy Rebellions of Balon Greyjoy, the go-to option is to use the Royal Fleet and the Redwyne Fleet to crush the Ironborn. A century prior during Dagon Greyjoy's days, the Roual Navy was focused on Essos due to the Blackfyres, and the Redwyne Fleet was also not moving anywhere, despite being attacked by Ironborn (perhaps it suffered a surprise attack at the Arbor during Daron's attack there?). The Lannisters built a fleet and the Starks added fighters to their numbers for an attack on the Iron Islands. A century before that during the Dance, the Ironborn under Dalton Greyjoy managed to snag Fair Isle and raid the Westerlands because the realm was in a massive civil war. When it was finished, the Lannisters were aided by a fleet from the Reach to invade the Iron Islands, to partial success. So during the course of 300 years, the Greyjoys rose 4 times in rebellion. The first time was after over a century of peace. They managed to hurt the Lannisters, but the Lannisters managed to overturn the early defeats with the fleet of the Reach. The second time was after another century, during which the Ironborn managed to do far less to the Westerlands, and the Lannisters built a fleet to transport thier and the Stark's armies to invade the Iron Islands again. The third time was after close on a century later, where the Lannisters again suffered to the Ironborn raids, but the rebellion was quickly crushed by the Royal and Reach's fleets. The fourth time was over a decade later ,and the Ironborn did not bother to touch the Lannsiters even with most of thier forces away. Again, the fleets of the Reach and the crown are here to deal with the Ironborn. So why should the Lannisters invest in a large permanent fleet and maintain it for a century, if they are going to end up defeating their foes anyway? A surprise attack could destroy a large fleet just as well as a smaller one, and it is bloody expensive to keep a large war fleet for no reason. The Westerlands are a land power, they have a small naval force that can be rapidly expanded when needed. Still it does not make sense for the powerful lord Tywin to not have a strong fleet when obviously can afford it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: Still it does not make sense for the powerful lord Tywin to not have a strong fleet when obviously can afford it. You were given numerous reasons why it's to necessary, yet you keep asking... why did you start a thread if nothing will change your opinion? We're dealing with wooden ships here, you'd have to repair them and they couldn't be used for more than 20-30 years. And if there's a need, you can relatively quickly build them... so why dump your money into the sea for nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: Still it does not make sense for the powerful lord Tywin to not have a strong fleet when obviously can afford it. I think it's mostly because the Lannisters were not a seafaring house, so they didn't really think it was all that important. Sure Tywin could afford it, but did he think it would be worth spending the money? Apparently he didn't, but we don't know why he made that decision. Could be just that he could call upon his bannermen and gather all the boats and ships (the Lannister ships being bigger and better per the SSM) or it could just be that the main reason for worrying about being comparable to the Greyjoy fleet would be to defend against the Greyjoy's taking your castle and CR has never been,and will never be, taken by assault...only through cunning (Lann the Clever in the past, and Tyrion in the future). On the other side of the continent the Velaryons used to be a major naval power. I wonder if they're not anymore because they were so closely allied to House Targaryen and the Targs fell. They still have ships of course, but GRRM didn't mention them as being on par with the Redwynes and Greyjoys. Actually the Greyjoy fleet isn't all Greyjoy ships either now that I think about it. As Lords Paramount of the Iron Islands, they call on all the other captains and their ships...like the Harlaw ships, and the Goodbrother ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: You were given numerous reasons why it's to necessary, yet you keep asking... why did you start a thread if nothing will change your opinion? We're dealing with wooden ships here, you'd have to repair them and they couldn't be used for more than 20-30 years. And if there's a need, you can relatively quickly build them... so why dump your money into the sea for nothing? Tywin was going to go to war with Renly, Stannis, Robb and likely Balon but he didn't find it important to build a fleet. I just find it strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnFit Finlay Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 21 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: Tywin was going to go to war with Renly, Stannis, Robb and likely Balon but he didn't find it important to build a fleet. I just find it strange. It wasn't important though was it? Stannis had the ships but not the men. The Redwyne twins being hostages of the Crown stopped Renly using their fleet and the Iron Born attacked the North. Robb and his forces were already in the Riverlands so that was always going to be resolved on land. Realistically the only way a large Lannister fleet would've been important is if Balon had followed Theon's plan and attacked Casterly Rock and, even then, the Iron Fleet probably would've won anyway. It was far more important to focus on his land-based foes and let.King's Landing worry about the naval battles. Even then The Battle of the Blackwater was decided on land as well. Really it feels like you're arguing that Tywin should've had a large fleet as some sort of status symbol, which doesn't fit with the character at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastards Giant Friend Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 31 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: We're dealing with wooden ships here, you'd have to repair them and they couldn't be used for more than 20-30 years. I agree with pretty much everything people have posted regarding why it doesn't make sense for the Lannisters to have a fleet. But I am not sure if the 20-30 years thing is accurate. Admittedly I do not have a vast knowledge of ships. I would expect that with proper upkeep and maintenance you could keep a wooden ship seaworthy almost indefinitely, and that the only motivators for removal from service would be destruction/heavy damage or becoming obsolete. Due to the slow technological progress in the woaif, I don't think it likely that a ship is obsolete in 20-30 years. Look at some of the names on the ships at the Blackwater; Prince Aemon, Princess Alysanne, Queen Rhaenys, etc. surely they were not all named during the lives of their namesakes, but certainly they were not made during Roberts reign. It's likely they were named in a relatively close (maybe 20-30 years, ha) proximity to the lifetime of their namesake. If you have any sources for a 20-30 year lifetime of wooden warships I would be interested to know them. Like I said, I am not very knowledgeable in ship maintenance. All of this is not to take away from your overall explanation to the OP. To keep a fleet seaworthy would be a ridiculous expense, especially considering the infrequency of its need. I would even argue that 20-30 large/grand ships in the Lannister fleet is overkill and befitting of Tywins character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said: Tywin was going to go to war with Renly, Stannis, Robb and likely Balon but he didn't find it important to build a fleet. I just find it strange. I think if he'd known he was going to be warring against Renly, Stannis, Robb and Balon, then he would have made it a priority to build up the fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rahvin Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 My opinion is that Tywin thinks like a soldier, and therefore would prefer to put steel in the hands of soldiers. Surely in his mind that is the way to measure ones strength... Besides at least he's got a bigger fleet than the Stark's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, Lord Rahvin said: Besides at least he's got a bigger fleet than the Stark's. At the beginning of the books he did but not now at this point in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 The Lannisters have a fleet, a pretty decent fleet for their needs; to protect the coast. I am not sure what you are asking here? There are only three larger fleets in Westeros, the Royal fleet, the Ironborn and the Redwyne fleet. There are all logical reasons for why these regions would need bigger fleets than the Lannisters (as a House) or even the Westerlands as a region would have. I am sure that Lannister gold could probably pay for a 100k full time army; but it would be a pointless expense. Better to accumulate the wealth or invest it in other infrastructures rather than waste it on pointless military showboating that should not be needed in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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