Truly good characters

[UnFit Finlay]

I don't think Renly had much of a choice, to be honest. His initial plan was to convince Robert to marry Margaery. When Robert was killed, he tried to convince Ned to seize Joffrey and take control of the realm, which Ned refused to do.

At that point, Renly's options were to bend the knee to either Joffrey or Stannis. I think he had good reason to fear for his safety under Joffrey's rule. It doubtful that Cersei didn't know that he was scheming to replace her after all and the Lannisters would probably gain Storm's End if Renly died. While Stannis could've taken the Throne with Renly's support, it's questionable whether he could hold it. I like the guy but he would not have been a popular King at that point.

I don't see how Robb had much of a choice either. He was an unproven boy leading seasoned men to war. What could he do if they chose to crown him? If he'd refused then he'd have looked weak and they'd have wasted more time arguing than actually fighting the war.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

8 minutes ago, devilish said:

Ok I went a bit too Stannis for my taste. Executing Cat would be OTT, however, he could have easily arrested her. I also doubt Renly ever needed Robb to be honest. His 80k army could trample over both lion and wolf at will. 

Well yes and no. He may have been able to win without Robb, and he made it clear he thought he could to Cat - the threat was pretty explicit. However, he was a clever enough operator to know that having Robb on his side would have been much, much better. The reason I like Renly is he recognised that soft power was just as important as hard power. Why smash the North when you can befriend it? Unite against the common enemy, etc.

I’m not arguing he was a bad guy, he was ambitious and a much more competent politician than either of his brothers. I just think that he wasn’t primarily motivated by the urge to do “good”. That is a matter of interpretation though.

[devilish]

11 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Well yes and no. He may have been able to win without Robb, and he made it clear he thought he could to Cat - the threat was pretty explicit. However, he was a clever enough operator to know that having Robb on his side would have been much, much better. The reason I like Renly is he recognised that soft power was just as important as hard power. Why smash the North when you can befriend it? Unite against the common enemy, etc.

 

I’m not arguing he was a bad guy, he was ambitious and a much more competent politician than either of his brothers. I just think that he wasn’t primarily motivated by the urge to do “good”. That is a matter of interpretation though.

 

I can't see how Renly could have lost TBH. He had, by far, the biggest army in Westeros. That horde was lead by the most competent of generals. The Tyrells weren't just loaded and with no powerful enemies whatsoever but they also controlled Westeros food basket. All that Renly had to do was wait and stop the food supply line to KL. The lion and the wolf would soon run out of steam  and once the funfare was over, they would come begging for his intervention. If the status quo remained, the Lion might not even have any grandsons to worry about because the KL citizens would have sorted that issue too.

If Renly wanted the crown then he would have probably started the ball rolling long before it actually did. Instead he pushed for Robert's end to his poisonous marriage and a marriage with Margaery Tyrell. That would have strengthened the crown significantly. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, devilish said:

That would have strengthened the crown significantly. 

It would have strengthened Renly as well. He wanted to sweep the Lannisters aside and put his allies in their place. Very clever. 

[devilish]

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It would have strengthened Renly as well. He wanted to sweep the Lannisters aside and put his allies in their place. Very clever. 

I doubt that his situation would improve that much. Sure, the Rose would have been grateful for service rendered but that would be it. Renly would still be LP of the Stormlands and he'll remain the third in line for the crown. 

Assuming that Tywin would rebel (and be crushed soon afterwards) then the one who had a decent chance of benefiting from it was Stannis. The Westerlands were lead by Lannisters for centuries and will not take a new ruler easily. Considering that Robert loves to give dangerous tasks to his younger brother (Storm's end siege, capturing and holding dragon stone etc) then I can see him being appointed Lord of CR and warden of the West. Considering how sour Stannis is, he'll probably take that as an insult too.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 minutes ago, devilish said:

I doubt that his situation would improve that much. Sure, the Rose would have been grateful for service rendered but that would be it. Renly would still be LP of the Stormlands and he'll remain the third in line for the crown. 

I don't know about that. I always assumed that plot was about inserting himself and the Tyrells into court as a new power bloc. He was essentially, through Loras, Mace's son-in-law after all. 

[UnFit Finlay]

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

I doubt that his situation would improve that much. Sure, the Rose would have been grateful for service rendered but that would be it. Renly would still be LP of the Stormlands and he'll remain the third in line for the crown. 

Assuming that Tywin would rebel (and be crushed soon afterwards) then the one who had a decent chance of benefiting from it was Stannis. The Westerlands were lead by Lannisters for centuries and will not take a new ruler easily. Considering that Robert loves to give dangerous tasks to his younger brother (Storm's end siege, capturing and holding dragon stone etc) then I can see him being appointed Lord of CR and warden of the West. Considering how sour Stannis is, he'll probably take that as an insult too.

Nah. No way Robert was giving Casterly Rock to Stannis. I think you'd either see it go to another Lannister, even a Lannisport one, another House in the Westerlands, or one of the Tyrells. He might even give it to one of his "children" assuming that we're talking about him merely getting rid of Cersei and not actually finding out about the Twincest,

He'd probably get Stannis to take it mind you but no way he's giving him a literal gold mine.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Maester Cressen seemed pretty good to me.  He even loved our poor unlovable Stannis the Mannis.  Davos, Jaime, Meera, Osha, Podrick - they're all good in my book.  And Varamyr Sixskins is the absolute worst.

[Trigger Warning]

I think the best way to describe Renly is that he was pushed into a position where claiming the throne was his best option. He didn't initially intend to become king but certainly had no problem doing it when circumstance dictated, thinking himself not only justified because of the circumstances which pushed him to it but also because ultimately he thought he'd be the best option for king, which in many ways he was. 

I don't think the desire to be the king was really something that he was concerned about until fleeing King's Landing. 

[Ser Snowflake]

Lord Snow--  He defended and befriended the self professed coward Sam Tarly

He infiltrated the free folk on the order of a man he was forced to kill, and kept his vows to the watch by refusing to kill the old man.

He turned down his father's seat and one of the most beautiful women in the world for honor and a black cloak.

He is compassionate toward the wildlings....sheltering them behind the wall and refusing to let Stannis use them for arrow fodder.

He treats an Oldtown boy whore as a brother, elevating him to serve as his steward, while others of high birth heaps nothing but scorn on the boy.

Besides Ser Davis Seaworth and Brienne the Beauty, Lord Snow is one of the few good characters left in the realm.

[Winter's Cold]

Renly isn't good but he's not bad either. He's just a self interested person. He will do whatever benefits him regardless of the morality of the action. He's pragmatic to the core.

[Joy Hill]

Out of the POV characters I'd say Dunk, Brienne, Sam, Davos, maybe Ned and Jon.

[The Fresh PtwP]

2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

I think the best way to describe Renly is that he was pushed into a position where claiming the throne was his best option. He didn't initially intend to become king but certainly had no problem doing it when circumstance dictated, thinking himself not only justified because of the circumstances which pushed him to it but also because ultimately he thought he'd be the best option for king, which in many ways he was. 

I don't think the desire to be the king was really something that he was concerned about until fleeing King's Landing. 

Really good understanding of Renly's motives. I agree.

[Philokles]

Nobody is morally faultless. A good number come admirably close - the Stark kids, Ned, Davos, Brienne, etc.

 

5 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Summer

Summer is a bit rude about Ghost once, not properly counting him amongst his siblings.

[devilish]

4 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Nah. No way Robert was giving Casterly Rock to Stannis. I think you'd either see it go to another Lannister, even a Lannisport one, another House in the Westerlands, or one of the Tyrells. He might even give it to one of his "children" assuming that we're talking about him merely getting rid of Cersei and not actually finding out about the Twincest,

He'd probably get Stannis to take it mind you but no way he's giving him a literal gold mine.

The only way Robert had to get rid of Cersei was to bring in some solid accusations against her. Her sexuality was an easy target (think of Henry Tudor's wives). Also, I doubt that Mace would accept having Margaery marry Cersei if her children were still in line to the throne. The lions always pay their debts and King Joffrey would make sure that the Tyrells would pay that debt to the full. Therefore if Cersei is kicked out from KL then her children will quickly follow.

I also doubt that CR would be inherited by either a Lannister or Cersei's offspring. The Lannisters are all related to one another and CR has enough gold in its coffers to afford an army of assassins if they want to. Robert is a drunk but he's not a fool.

So what  he would do? He'll probably do what he always did ie he'll throw this extremely difficult task (ie to stabilise the Westerlands) right on Stannis laps. He did that when someone needed to hold the Stormlands on his behalf and he did the same thing when he needed someone to capture Dragonstone as quickly as possible even though Stannis hardly had any experience as a seafarer himself.

Robert doesn't like Stannis very much but he knows

a- Stannis would never betray him. As a second son he would have been better off betraying Robert and bend the knee to Aerys when storm's end was under siege. Yet he preferred to starve then doing so
b- if there's anyone capable of getting things done then that man is him.

Hence why he assigned him as Lord of Dragonstone. That island attracts Targs like flies and if they captured it then the whole Aegon's conquest hype would start again.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

13 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Brienne supported her liege against two other kings with shaky claims from her perspective. She was right for wanting to kill a guy who murders with black magic.

Brienne sided with her overlord, which most of the Stormlands people did. And since she didn't know about the twincest at the time that means she didn't know that Stannis was the rightful king either. (that's to the person you were replying to, khal drogon)

9 hours ago, devilish said:

He wanted to be king, because he was the only person in Westeros who could go toe to toe with Tywin Lannister. Without him, the Tyrells would simply kiss lion's arse and together they would smash anybody on their way. 

<snip

Renly could not have bested Tywin in any way except keeping up with the latest fashions. Nowhere in the text does anything remotely indicate that Renly could go toe to toe with Tywin.

8 hours ago, devilish said:

Erm you've just described Cat's son.

 

Yeah, I remember that scene where Renly's men declared him king despite his reluctance. I believe it was Brienne's father Selwyn Tarth who made that stirring speech:

"MY LORDS! Here is what I say to these two kings! Joffrey Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in King's Landing or Dragonstone? What do they know of the marches or Shipbreaker Bay or the wrath of the sea god? Even their clothes are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them. Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead! There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords. The King in the Stormlands!

[devilish]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Brienne sided with her overlord, which most of the Stormlands people did. And since she didn't know about the twincest at the time that means she didn't know that Stannis was the rightful king either. (that's to the person you were replying to, khal drogon)

Renly could not have bested Tywin in any way except keeping up with the latest fashions. Nowhere in the text does anything remotely indicate that Renly could go toe to toe with Tywin.

Yeah, I remember that scene where Renly's men declared him king despite his reluctance. I believe it was Brienne's father Selwyn Tarth who made that stirring speech:

"MY LORDS! Here is what I say to these two kings! Joffrey Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in King's Landing or Dragonstone? What do they know of the marches or Shipbreaker Bay or the wrath of the sea god? Even their clothes are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them. Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead! There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords. The King in the Stormlands!

He wasn't the kind to let his bannermen get the best out of him only to then panic and start chopping heads to state his authority. He was a grown man, who had made his bones in KL. I cant see Renly putting a crown on his head unless he the men to keep it there

[Batbob45]

On 3/17/2017 at 8:18 AM, devilish said:

Can you please list anything he did which was bad?

He call  his niece ugly  in a joke  about Stannis. He agree in having a pregnant Dany killed, and he cause smallfolks to suffer by blocking food supply on Roseroad(It did not affect the noble, only the smallfolks".

The true good characters are

Shireen-has done nothing bad and shown to be kind(Opposite of majority of house Florent)

Edric Storm-good kid(wanted to say goodbye to his cousin Shireen), has his dad charisma

Tommen-he only enemy is beets

Missandei-she done nothing wrong

Hodor-is an innocent

Lolly- she was a victim of the riot  caused by a Renly's blockage of food supply.

 

.

 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, Batbob45 said:

He call  his niece ugly  in a joke  about Stannis.

I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but I find it genuinely sweet that your proof that Renly is a bad character is that he called his niece ugly. I  actually support this. In the real world this would be the ultimate proof that the guy is a total shit. 

[khal drogon]

On 3/17/2017 at 6:21 PM, devilish said:

- All the Starks + Jon Snow
- Edmure 
- Samwell
- Missandei
- Brienne
- Davos
- Tyrion
- Tommen
- Renly

Tyrion? You meant "I wanna rape my sister" Tyrion?

He is basically good natured compared to a lot but he has done terrible things. Starks except the kids and Jon doesn't belong in the list too. We are talking about truly good not mostly good.