"Then or now"

[Shmedricko]

The phrase “Then or now” only appears three times in the main series, spoken by three characters:

Arthur Dayne, during Ned’s ToJ dream:

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"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. (Eddard X, AGOT)

Meera Reed:

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Bran had never heard of a moving castle before. He looked at her uncertainly, but he couldn't tell whether she was teasing him or not. "I wish I could see it. Do you think your lord father would let me come visit when the war is over?"

"You would be most welcome, my prince. Then or now." (Bran IV, ACOK)

and Quaithe of the Shadow:

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A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. "Quaithe? Am I dreaming?" She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. "I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor."

"You did not dream. Then or now." (Daenerys II, ADWD)

Arthur and Ned were both at the ToJ, and knew what was going on there. Meera is the daughter of Howland Reed, who was also at the ToJ (and mentioned in the second quote), and he could have told her something about it. Meera and Jojen’s oath to Bran includes the phrase “ice and fire”:

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"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together. (Bran III, ACOK)

Immediately after Meera tells Bran about the KOTLT (a story that Howland evidently told his children about -- unlike Ned, which surprised Jojen) she says this:

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Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?" (Bran II, ASOS)

And according to the following SSM, GRRM straight up said Meera and Jojen might know something about the ToJ:

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There most interesting question was about what Meera and Jojen Reed know about the Tower of Joy. George said that the Reeds might know something about it.

-Seattle Town Hall Q&A

That leaves Quaithe. Could the fact that she also uses the phrase “Then or now” be a literary hint on Martin’s part that she too knows something about the ToJ? Would this not support the theory that Quaithe is Ashara Dayne, who is not unlikely to have been involved in that whole plot through her brother Arthur?

Now, there is actually another occurrence of “then or now” outside of the main series, in the history novella The Rogue Prince:

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Mushroom, as always, favors the most sinister theory, suggesting that Prince Daemon paid Qarl Correy to dispose of Princess Rhaenyra’s husband, arranged for a ship to carry him away, then cut his throat and fed him to the sea. A household knight of relatively low birth, Correy was known to have a lord’s tastes and a peasant’s purse, and was given to extravagant wagering besides, which lends a certain credence to the fool’s version of events. Yet there was no shred of proof, then or now, though the Sea Snake offered a reward of ten thousand golden dragons for any man who could lead him to Ser Qarl Correy or deliver the killer to a father’s vengeance.

But as you can see, unlike all the other examples, this isn’t a piece of dialogue which stands alone as a sentence, so the pattern I’m suggesting could still hold.

What do you think?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

That's very interesting, and goes along nicely with a crackpot I'm working on about Ashara. Except that I have her actually dead in my crackpot, even though I don't buy that suicide story.

Wait a minute...maybe she is dead, and has been brought back like Beric and LS, and most likely Mel. That would work perfectly.

Hey, maybe ALL shadowbinders are undead!

Whenever I get this particular crackpot of mine ready to post, would it be okay with you if I link back to this thread?

Now on to the phrase itself. Given that the only mentions are 1) a historian's account of a past event, 2) a member of the supposedly oldest house in Westeros, 3) a girl from a people who have a kind of "wisdom of the ancients" thing going, and 4) a person who is definitely into deep and ancient magic and may also be a member of the oldest house in Westeros...where was I going with this? Oh yes. An old-fashioned, perhaps even archaic term would be rather consistent with these characters and situations.

[Lord Varys]

I doubt that we are supposed to believe that Howland remembered whatever conversation took place at the tower verbatim to repeat the words later to his children. That they know stuff Bran and the reader don't know seems to be pretty evident in ASoS.

I think George uses 'then or now' like a lot of other phrases in certain contexts when he intends to lend a certain gravitas to the scene.

Still, in the case of the Reeds there is a small chance that the meaning may be a meta-hint directed at the reader who could notice that the same words are used. But quite honestly, George uses a lot of words, phrases, sentences, etc. again and again and again. That is part of his style, at least when writing those books.

I see no reason to believe that Quaithe knows or cares about Jon Snow. If she did she might not be where she is now.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I don't see it. I think it's a phrase that has caught the George's fancy from time to time. You don't need it to link the Reedlings to the Tower of Joy. Their father is a direct link between them and whatever truly went down there. 

[Shmedricko]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Whenever I get this particular crackpot of mine ready to post, would it be okay with you if I link back to this thread?

Sure thing.