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Danerys is Ned Stark's bastard daughter

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21 minutes ago, Aetta said:

No, no, no.

Ned's first time gettin jiggy was when he knocked Cat up....with Sansa.

What about Robb?

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6 minutes ago, Howling Mad said:

What about Robb?

You mean Brandon Stark's bastard?

Those Tully girls were looser than a drunken Dornish chick in a whorehouse.  Robb is Brandon's, it is known.

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3 hours ago, Aetta said:

You mean Brandon Stark's bastard?

Those Tully girls were looser than a drunken Dornish chick in a whorehouse.  Robb is Brandon's, it is known.

That would be a neat trick. Robb is conceived on the night of Ned and Catelyn's wedding, which takes place sometime after the Battle of the Bells. Given that Brandon died before the Rebellion started, he would have been months dead when Robb was conceived.

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49 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

That would be a neat trick. Robb is conceived on the night of Ned and Catelyn's wedding, which takes place sometime after the Battle of the Bells. Given that Brandon died before the Rebellion started, he would have been months dead when Robb was conceived.

Yeah but the "seed is strong". WHo do you think Jon Arryn was refering to in not Brandon?

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On 3/19/2017 at 5:46 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Playing devil's advocate for just a minute here.

We don't have any accounts from eye witnesses to Dany's birth. 

Viserys wouldn't know one baby from another.

But even these still don't change that Ned could not and would not be Dany's father. Even if she weren't a Targ princess, GRRM's statement about when she was born would still hold and there is no way Ned was in Dorne at the right time for the conception. It would have to be about a month before Jon was born and he didn't get there until or after Jon's birth. Nor would Ashara have been roaming the war zones. Moving around Dorne, sure but not taking a leisurely ride through the battlegrounds in hopes of bumping into Ned. Her family were staunchly pro-Targ. She would have been captured and used as a hostage.

It's true we don't have an explicit eyewitness account of Dany's birth. But I do think it's safe to assume there were witnesses (midwives, a maester) That partially why I said it "seems" like there were eyewitnesses. We don't have explicit eyewitnesses to a number of births, but yet we accept the births as true unless there is a reason to doubt (ie multiple people being named as Jon's potential mother). We have no reason to believe Dany is not Rhaella's.  

When I say Viserys I mean these theories never explain what happened to the Rhaella's child. If Rhaella's child was miscarried or stillborn, then Viserys was old enough to know whether he had a sibling or not. While Viserys may be crazy, he wasn't stupid. There's no way someone could just pop up with a baby and tell him this is sister. and he just accept it considered how old he was.

Yeah the conception timeline is a bigger issue in addition to the why he would leave he would hide his daughter as Targ princess when he knows what just happened to Targ children.

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2 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

It's true we don't have an explicit eyewitness account of Dany's birth. But I do think it's safe to assume there were witnesses (midwives, a maester) That partially why I said it "seems" like there were eyewitnesses. We don't have explicit eyewitnesses to a number of births, but yet we accept the births as true unless there is a reason to doubt (ie multiple people being named as Jon's potential mother). We have no reason to believe Dany is not Rhaella's. 

The problem is that whatever the number of witnesses there may have been on Dragonstone, as soon as Darry left with the Targlings the number of people knowing where Daenerys was was reduced to two: Darry and Viserys. That's a pretty small number, especially since these two are both dead now.

The reason why Dany's parentage can be considered unquestionable is the fact she has dragons. That's as solid as it gets for everyone, and we've yet to see a non-Targaryen hatching dragons, or even a hint that a non-Targaryen could do it.
Remove the dragons and the whole story of her birth and exile allows for plenty of crazy theories. It's as if the story was written to make one wonder. Which it no doubt was.

2 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

When I say Viserys I mean these theories never explain what happened to the Rhaella's child. If Rhaella's child was miscarried or stillborn, then Viserys was old enough to know whether he had a sibling or not. While Viserys may be crazy, he wasn't stupid. There's no way someone could just pop up with a baby and tell him this is sister. and he just accept it considered how old he was.

Viserys wasn't that old, and he wouldn't have taken care of Dany when she was an infant. Presumably that would have been a wetnurse and Darry.
Dany recalls them living with Darry and Viserys in the infamous "house with the red door" but by then she must have been around four or five.
And the fact he wasn't stupid would actually support all kinds of crazy theories. Especially given how odd his behavior towards Dany was.

Now as I said, because of the dragons, at this point in the story, there's little to nothing supporting an alternative parentage. I've tried to work on various theories, but there's simply no textual evidence. Nothing, nada, zilch. Also, the timeline and the infamous "9 month" SSM don't help.

But we do have enough bits and pieces that could make sense if Martin dropped a juicy clue in the next book (in someone else's POV chapter I would bet). I don't think it'll necessarily be about parentage, but there's definitely something fishy about Dany. Small details here or there don't completely add up. Her chapters repeatedly hint that there is something to look forward to. It might just be character development of course, but there are also incontrovertible hints that her past is not exactly what we were told.

 

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22 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

The problem is that whatever the number of witnesses there may have been on Dragonstone, as soon as Darry left with the Targlings the number of people knowing where Daenerys was was reduced to two: Darry and Viserys. That's a pretty small number, especially since these two are both dead now.

The reason why Dany's parentage can be considered unquestionable is the fact she has dragons. That's as solid as it gets for everyone, and we've yet to see a non-Targaryen hatching dragons, or even a hint that a non-Targaryen could do it.
Remove the dragons and the whole story of her birth and exile allows for plenty of crazy theories. It's as if the story was written to make one wonder. Which it no doubt was.

Viserys wasn't that old, and he wouldn't have taken care of Dany when she was an infant. Presumably that would have been a wetnurse and Darry.
Dany recalls them living with Darry and Viserys in the infamous "house with the red door" but by then she must have been around four or five.
And the fact he wasn't stupid would actually support all kinds of crazy theories. Especially given how odd his behavior towards Dany was.

Now as I said, because of the dragons, at this point in the story, there's little to nothing supporting an alternative parentage. I've tried to work on various theories, but there's simply no textual evidence. Nothing, nada, zilch. Also, the timeline and the infamous "9 month" SSM don't help.

But we do have enough bits and pieces that could make sense if Martin dropped a juicy clue in the next book (in someone else's POV chapter I would bet). I don't think it'll necessarily be about parentage, but there's definitely something fishy about Dany. Small details here or there don't completely add up. Her chapters repeatedly hint that there is something to look forward to. It might just be character development of course, but there are also incontrovertible hints that her past is not exactly what we were told.

 

True Viserys was not old enough to take care of her but he was old enough to know whether she existed. He was 7 or 8 when Dany was born. That's old enough to know whether your mother was pregnant. You couldn't just present an infant to him and claim it was his sister if Rhaella was never pregnant or present an older baby or child later on (after a miscarriage or stillborn) and randomly say this is your sister.

There doesn't need to be a complicated explanation to explain Viserys' treatment of Dany. He's crazy and sees her as an object. And if he's treating her a certain way bc of something to do with her heritage there's no way he doesn't let that slip in one of those waking the dragon moments. 

I'm not convinced there's anything juicy about her past that's being hinted at not to say we know everything but I'd be surprised if there's anything that materially effects the plot or her arc. I'm not sure what you're specifically talking about but people like to bring up the lemon tree thing and the quaithe remember who you are or something like that quote. The lemon tree thing is adequately explained and I don't interpret the quaithe quote literally. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

 

There doesn't need to be a complicated explanation to explain Viserys' treatment of Dany. He's crazy and sees her as an object. And if he's treating her a certain way bc of something to do with her heritage there's no way he doesn't let that slip in one of those waking the dragon moments. 

 

 

And at times Viserys had been very kind to Dany, he told her stories and what he knew of the Family History.  IIRC Dany even says that a big change took him over when he was forced to sell his mother's (?) crown.  I think that if Viserys had even suspected for a second that Dany wasn't who she thinks he is he would have said it if for no other reason than to hurt her.

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8 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

You couldn't just [...] present an older baby or child later on (after a miscarriage or stillborn) and randomly say this is your sister.

This is where I have my doubts. Especially if he was told that the child was a relative. And as crazy as Viserys was, he was still human and could have grown to love her as a sister whoever she was.
Nor was I ever convinced by the argument that he would "let it slip." Viserys's madness is his obsession with the throne. In my eyes almost everything crazy he does is for that purpose (there are exceptions, but I don't want to go into details). I don't see why he would do or say anything that could in any way hurt his chances.

But we've had this exchange before, haven't we? There's nothing to gain by debating whether something is possible or not without any textual evidence. I've decided to keep an open-mind about this, 'tis all. And it's a fantasy story after all so I want to be careful with what I consider impossible.

8 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I'm not convinced there's anything juicy about her past that's being hinted at not to say we know everything but I'd be surprised if there's anything that materially effects the plot or her arc. I'm not sure what you're specifically talking about but people like to bring up the lemon tree thing and the quaithe remember who you are or something like that quote. The lemon tree thing is adequately explained and I don't interpret the quaithe quote literally.

Funnily enough, I'm not thinking about lemongate or Quaithe. Well, I am in a way, of course, but these were not elements I picked up myself so they're not necessarily the first things that come to my mind..
I was always more intrigued by Dany's reaction when presented with the marriage pact. For some reason that stuck out when I read it. As if it was meant as a hint.
And then there's this relationship Dany has with Tyrosh... That's really right there on the page, that she spent a lot of time in Tyrosh.

Also... Ah, I think I have it... Funny that it took me so long to figure it out. It's the heat. Everyone focuses on the lemons, but Dany's entire arc takes place in warm climates. And though she does seem slightly inconvenienced at times she seems rather resistant to heat. She's the "unburnt" and the "bride of fire" of course, but she also seems to have lived her entire life in warm climates. I just can't picture her in Braavos. In fact, even her memories of Braavos radiate some kind of warmth.
I'm biased here. I spent a good part of my early childhood in a warm climate and have been sensitive to cold ever since, and on the contrary rather confortable with heat. I naturally see Dany as someone who has spent her childhood somewhere warm. And if her ideal house was in a colder climate, for some reason, I would expect her to mention it somehow, if only indirectly. I guess that's why I got on board lemongate.
But that's quite personal a reading here. :P

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21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That would be a neat trick. Robb is conceived on the night of Ned and Catelyn's wedding, which takes place sometime after the Battle of the Bells. Given that Brandon died before the Rebellion started, he would have been months dead when Robb was conceived.

And it would be stupid, really, since it wouldn't change anything anyway. He dead.

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My biggest problem with Daenerys being a fake is why would anybody go to what would be a great deal of trouble to produce a fake for no apparent advantage?  Daenerys is the younger sibling and a girl to boot.  Under Targ law,I am not even sure she can become ruler.  In any case, she would be at the very end of the line.  She is essentially surplus.  If she dies or is never born, it doesn't really affect anything.  I doubt anybody is going to care much.  Certainly not enough to create a fake.  

And if she is 4 or 5, as lemongate would indicate, there is no way Viserys isn't going to smell a big rat.  He is cruel, not stupid, and is going to know the difference.  And if she is an infant, she is going to use up resources (food, care, etc.) that cost money that Viserys and Willem Darry are going to need for themselves.  An infant, especially a fake one, is not something they really need.

Keeping her safe doesn't make sense. She is much safer at Starfall with the Daynes.  Everyone knows Daynes have Targ-like features, so she would blend in.  And the Crown's authority barely exists in Dorne at the best of times, and these aren't the best.  Even if Robert gets suspicious, he would be unable to do anything outside of open warfare, which isn't going to happen.  Leaving her with Viserys and Darry puts a potential target on her.

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Posted (edited)

She isn't a fake.  She's Aerys' daughter and Viseris/Rhaegar's half sister.  That's very useful to someone like Varys and Illyrio especially since anyone else who matters on the Targ line is gone.   A 9 year old boy isn't going to cart around a newborn and nursemaid.  In a time of war, siblings are split up and sent into hiding or they get the Lannister treatment.   Viserys just wasn't that important after Robert Baratheon took the throne.  But Dany did come in handy when they could sell her as Rhaegar's full sister when the time came for some power brokering with the Dothraki.   

Look at Dany's dragon dream in GoT.  The line of kings, her ancestors with the pale swords. That's a pretty good pointer to the Daynes.  Martin isn't telling, he's showing.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

"… the dragon …"

 

She's having a dragon dream in same sense that the Starks have wolf dreams.  Dany shares a soul with a dragon, specifically, the last dragon.   The long cavern and high stone arches; probably a cavern located on the Dothraki sea.  The red door, the dawn light coming through the cave opening.   This great black dragon isn't Drogon unborn.  This is another dragon.  Possibly the last dragon worshipped as a god and likely the last mount she must ride with it's serpent like body and flaming sword jetting from it huge mouth.   Martin's metaphorical comet, the sword and the serpent.  AA with her flaming sword.     

Edited by LynnS

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On 3/20/2017 at 7:05 PM, Maxxine said:

<snip

When I say Viserys I mean these theories never explain what happened to the Rhaella's child. If Rhaella's child was miscarried or stillborn, then Viserys was old enough to know whether he had a sibling or not. While Viserys may be crazy, he wasn't stupid. There's no way someone could just pop up with a baby and tell him this is sister. and he just accept it considered how old he was.

<snip

Viserys is old enough to know whether he has a sibling or not yes. But he's not necessarily going to know the difference between a newborn and a kid a few months older. There were no pregnancies between Viserys and Dany, so he hasn't had any baby siblings to use as frame of reference. He's a pampered and protected 8 year old boy. He doesn't know how big or little newborns are, or what they can and can't do.

The only way it works to have a decoy Dany replace Rhaella's child though is for Rhaella herself to be in on the switch. It requires her swear all of her people to secrecy about the fact that her child died and this other one is not really hers. That further requires all of Rhaella's people having a good reason to go along with it and keep their silence. I could see this working for a child of Rhaegar's but certainly not for some kid Ned Stark fathered.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Viserys is old enough to know whether he has a sibling or not yes. But he's not necessarily going to know the difference between a newborn and a kid a few months older. There were no pregnancies between Viserys and Dany, so he hasn't had any baby siblings to use as frame of reference. He's a pampered and protected 8 year old boy. He doesn't know how big or little newborns are, or what they can and can't do.

The only way it works to have a decoy Dany replace Rhaella's child though is for Rhaella herself to be in on the switch. It requires her swear all of her people to secrecy about the fact that her child died and this other one is not really hers. That further requires all of Rhaella's people having a good reason to go along with it and keep their silence. I could see this working for a child of Rhaegar's but certainly not for some kid Ned Stark fathered.

I pretty much agree with this. Maybe it would be possible to fool Viserys was if there was a baby switch very early on, which would require all you said. I will say only a few months would make this work. There may not be much difference between a newborn and two month old  to a child Viserys' age, but I don't know how much frame of reference you need to know that a nine month old is too big and doing too much to be a newborn. Also, how much access did Viserys have to Rhaegar's children. It's not clear how much time Rhaegar and the children spent at DS vs. KL. The theory would also require an explanation of what happened to Rhaella's child. If there was a baby swap where's the other baby?

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3 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I pretty much agree with this. Maybe it would be possible to fool Viserys was if there was a baby switch very early on, which would require all you said. I will say only a few months would make this work. There may not be much difference between a newborn and two month old  to a child Viserys' age, but I don't know how much frame of reference you need to know that a nine month old is too big and doing too much to be a newborn. Also, how much access did Viserys have to Rhaegar's children. It's not clear how much time Rhaegar and the children spent at DS vs. KL. The theory would also require an explanation of what happened to Rhaella's child. If there was a baby swap where's the other baby?

If there was a swap then Rhaella's child has to have died, either a stillbirth or dying shortly after birth. 

An adult could easily tell a newborn from an eight or nine month old. But I'm not sure an eight year old boy who did not spend time around babies and was showing signs of madness even before he turned eight would have the ability to tell the difference. 

It's a very good question how much time he spent with Rhaegar's children. I'd say probably not much. After Aerys' reaction when Rhaenys was presented to him I'd imagine Elia (and maybe Rhaegar too) decided not to spend much time at court.

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23 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

And at times Viserys had been very kind to Dany, he told her stories and what he knew of the Family History.  IIRC Dany even says that a big change took him over when he was forced to sell his mother's (?) crown.  I think that if Viserys had even suspected for a second that Dany wasn't who she thinks he is he would have said it if for no other reason than to hurt her.

This is my thought too. He's cruel to her for no reason. So it's not a leap to think in a fit of anger he would've never slipped up and said "you just some bastard anyway."

 

23 hours ago, Rippounet said:

This is where I have my doubts. Especially if he was told that the child was a relative. And as crazy as Viserys was, he was still human and could have grown to love her as a sister whoever she was.
Nor was I ever convinced by the argument that he would "let it slip." Viserys's madness is his obsession with the throne. In my eyes almost everything crazy he does is for that purpose (there are exceptions, but I don't want to go into details). I don't see why he would do or say anything that could in any way hurt his chances.

But we've had this exchange before, haven't we? There's nothing to gain by debating whether something is possible or not without any textual evidence. I've decided to keep an open-mind about this, 'tis all. And it's a fantasy story after all so I want to be careful with what I consider impossible.

Funnily enough, I'm not thinking about lemongate or Quaithe. Well, I am in a way, of course, but these were not elements I picked up myself so they're not necessarily the first things that come to my mind..
I was always more intrigued by Dany's reaction when presented with the marriage pact. For some reason that stuck out when I read it. As if it was meant as a hint.
And then there's this relationship Dany has with Tyrosh... That's really right there on the page, that she spent a lot of time in Tyrosh.

Also... Ah, I think I have it... Funny that it took me so long to figure it out. It's the heat. Everyone focuses on the lemons, but Dany's entire arc takes place in warm climates. And though she does seem slightly inconvenienced at times she seems rather resistant to heat. She's the "unburnt" and the "bride of fire" of course, but she also seems to have lived her entire life in warm climates. I just can't picture her in Braavos. In fact, even her memories of Braavos radiate some kind of warmth.
I'm biased here. I spent a good part of my early childhood in a warm climate and have been sensitive to cold ever since, and on the contrary rather confortable with heat. I naturally see Dany as someone who has spent her childhood somewhere warm. And if her ideal house was in a colder climate, for some reason, I would expect her to mention it somehow, if only indirectly. I guess that's why I got on board lemongate.
But that's quite personal a reading here. :P

You're giving Viserys a lot more credit than I do. I don't think there's a method to his madness. Basically insulting a group's religion is not a way to get your crown.

I don't remember anything about her reaction to the marriage pact other than her dismissing it because it doesn't have her name and she is promised to Hizdahr. I'll have to pay more attention on my next reread. See if I pick up on anything.

I do think you make an interesting point about climate. I never thought of it that way. It doesn't change my mind, but it interesting that she never brings that up considering it would be something so different that what she's used to. 

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7 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If there was a swap then Rhaella's child has to have died, either a stillbirth or dying shortly after birth. 

An adult could easily tell a newborn from an eight or nine month old. But I'm not sure an eight year old boy who did not spend time around babies and was showing signs of madness even before he turned eight would have the ability to tell the difference. 

It's a very good question how much time he spent with Rhaegar's children. I'd say probably not much. After Aerys' reaction when Rhaenys was presented to him I'd imagine Elia (and maybe Rhaegar too) decided not to spend much time at court.

That would mean Ned (or whoever makes the swap) would have to be there pretty quickly, almost as soon as the baby was being born or right after the death of the baby. He would have to go to TOJ, Starfall, and Dragonstone then be back at Winterfell in enough time to make all this work. I know the timeline is fuzzy but that still seems like a big stretch. Remember was already Ned back at WF before Catelyn got there (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

Idk I feel like I have to give 8 year olds some credit here. Babies are crawling, maybe even walking, at nine months. It doesn't take a lot of education on babies to realize a nine month old is not a newborn. Plus I'm feel like even if though there weren't royal children around, I'm sure there were babies somewhere around the RK and/or KL. He can't be completely oblivious to the huge differences between a newborn and a nine month old.

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If we (meaning you guys) are still jabbering logistics after three pages, I'm gonna say there's nothing to this. Logistics should be straightforward and explainable. Logistics are sometimes used as misdirection to the reader, but I can't recall them being simply absent. The bigger problem is that there's no thematic evidence or anything that says "secret Stark", while every other character with an obscure background has loads of symbolic and thematic baggage.

Dany being a secret Stark would be as big a deal as Jon being a secret Targ, and that major plot mystery was not hidden with just a few blank days on the timeline. It was concealed and revealed in great detail going from simple statements in the earliest pages to associations with obscure mythological archetypes. Jon's parentage is what these books are about. If there is such deeply embedded evidence for Dany being a Stark, where is it? 

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45 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

That would mean Ned (or whoever makes the swap) would have to be there pretty quickly, almost as soon as the baby was being born or right after the death of the baby. He would have to go to TOJ, Starfall, and Dragonstone then be back at Winterfell in enough time to make all this work. I know the timeline is fuzzy but that still seems like a big stretch. Remember was already Ned back at WF before Catelyn got there (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

Idk I feel like I have to give 8 year olds some credit here. Babies are crawling, maybe even walking, at nine months. It doesn't take a lot of education on babies to realize a nine month old is not a newborn. Plus I'm feel like even if though there weren't royal children around, I'm sure there were babies somewhere around the RK and/or KL. He can't be completely oblivious to the huge differences between a newborn and a nine month old.

I think it would depend on the individual 8 year old. Some would definitely be able to tell the difference, but some wouldn't. 

Babies in the RK would be kept in their nurseries a lot of the time. They wouldn't have been taken to the royal apartments or to official court functions. I doubt Viserys would have seen them except in passing. And with Aerys being paranoid the poor kid probably didn't get to go out much either.

Viserys was pretty oblivious to a lot even as a grown up. There's no way of knowing how much his budding madness interfered during childhood. But even Barristan noticed something was off with the prince, and he only saw him up to age seven. I think any argument, for or against anything, which hinges on Viserys' powers of observation, is probably doomed. 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I think it would depend on the individual 8 year old. Some would definitely be able to tell the difference, but some wouldn't. 

Babies in the RK would be kept in their nurseries a lot of the time. They wouldn't have been taken to the royal apartments or to official court functions. I doubt Viserys would have seen them except in passing. And with Aerys being paranoid the poor kid probably didn't get to go out much either.

Viserys was pretty oblivious to a lot even as a grown up. There's no way of knowing how much his budding madness interfered during childhood. But even Barristan noticed something was off with the prince, and he only saw him up to age seven. I think any argument, for or against anything, which hinges on Viserys' powers of observation, is probably doomed. 

I don't think we are ever going to get all the information about who was present at Dragonstone.  I think it's likely that there were very few in attendance because the circumstances suggest a hasty departure, at night, under secrecy.  That's Varys' MO. The simplest explanation would be for mother and child to have died a the same time and to send Viserys accross the Narrow Sea shortly afterwards, with the story that his sister had survived but was being hidden elsewhere.   He doesn't need to know more than that.  He's not going to know the difference between a 4 year old or a 5 year old when they are next hooked up.  She does remember the feeling of someone with soft hands (Varys).  Willem Derry was an old warhorse and not likely to be soft-handed.  Of course, Derry dies very conveniently at the appropriate time; likely the last person to know the facts about Dany.  Dany's story about the servants robbing them blind is also false; since Viserys still had his mother's crown.   So it's a discrepancy in the story and suggests that Viserys wasn't with Dany throughout her infant/toddler years.  She's produced as a substitute when it suits Varys' and Illyrio's purposes and Viserys thinks she is his full sister; rather than his half sister.  

Most people go with what they have been told repeatedly.  Very few people step outside the comfort zone for fear of being smacked back into line.  Not unlike Dany's situation with Viserys.  

Edited by LynnS

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