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Iron Fist [SPOILERS - after page 3]


RedEyedGhost

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An Asian adoptee story would have worked very nicely for a non-white Danny Fisk.

There are a lot of ways to do the story, really.  A lot of better ways, for sure.  There are even really good ways to keep the Danny Fisk character white and make it better and keeping it in line with Marvel's progressive streak. How they chose to do it was just terrible, insensitive, and very uncomfortable for people who care.

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I am usually that guy who always tries to focus on why things are good over why things are bad. I have a hard time doing that with this show -- it's a total struggle for me to find any redeeming qualities, though I developed an affinity for Colleen, Ward, and enjoyed seeing Claire again. I actually don't agree that the critics exaggerated how bad the show is. I think the reviews are fair, even ignoring the controversy.

You can forgive a lot of plot holes when a show is good. Because I struggled so much with getting behind Danny, all of the plot holes were almost unbearable to me. The Colleen reveal came out of nowhere, and not in a good way. It's one thing to make her a Hand agent, but the randomness of her bumping into Danny in episode 1 was utterly ridiculous. You can't even say she was a plant. She was set up in NY, had a dojo, and was coaching kids for a long enough period to develop strong bonds with her students. The utter convenience of having her develop a relationship with Danny is such a huge reach. When Danny confronted her on their first meeting, she even denied she ever marked him. If I liked the show enough, maybe I'd be willing to think about how that whole thing could've worked.

Then, the end with Davos and Joy? Whhhyyyy the hell would Joy "listen" to Davos plot Danny's murder? Joy finding out that her father framed Danny was one of the reasons why she peaced out on everyone. You were this guy's biggest cheerleader, literally, about 20 minutes before you sat down with someone to plot his murder. WTF?

I had so many issues with this season. I do not want it renewed, and I am not looking forward to seeing Finn Jones' Danny Rand taint the Defenders. Even if they wanted to cast a white guy in the role, Finn Jones was bad...whiney and completely unbelievable as a kung fu master.

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On 3/22/2017 at 11:27 PM, Bastard of Boston said:

I am usually that guy who always tries to focus on why things are good over why things are bad. I have a hard time doing that with this show...

I had so many issues with this season. I do not want it renewed, and I am not looking forward to seeing Finn Jones' Danny Rand taint the Defenders. Even if they wanted to cast a white guy in the role, Finn Jones was bad...whiney and completely unbelievable as a kung fu master.

I'm almost in agreement with you here. Finn Jones' Rand was hot garbage, but I'm hoping with some better writing the performance will get better, too. And as much as I am pissed for having wasted 12 hours of my life watching S1, I'd honestly forgive it all if S2 was an adaptation of the Brubaker/Fraction run on Immortal Iron Fist. That's literally the only Iron Fist comics I've ever read, and I love it so much. The history of all the other Iron Fists interwoven with this tournament of all the Immortal Weapons from the other cities--it's just a great arc. Even a loose adaptation of that would be great. So, yeah, I'm still holding out hope S2 will get it's shit together.

However, I'm like 70% sure I'm going to be pissed at The Defenders because there's no fucking way all these Hand shenanigans could be going on in New York and not have Dr. Strange at least mildly involved. Well, okay, they've been vague enough on the timelines of the Netflix MCU that possibly Strange hasn't become THE Sorcerer Supreme yet. But Defenders should at least have The Ancient One or Wu or some ties to some characters in the Dr. Strange film if this is all supposed to be one cohesive universe. Maybe Stick will turn out to be a follower of The Ancient one. 

*sigh*

Am I the only one pissed these Netflix shows aren't more  connected to the greater MCU? I mean, they refer to the Avengers battle with Loki as "The Incident" only once in the entirety of the series. The Meachums never mention Stark Industries once! Why not throw in that thread? The news reporters could've drawn a thread between Danny's actions and those of Tony Stark when he first become Iron Man. Five seasons of Netflix shows and Jessica Jones gave us one stand alone episode that tied the Netflix NYC to the MCU NYC. That's a pretty low average. I'm hoping The Defenders remedies that, but I'm not optimistic. 

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On 3/22/2017 at 1:53 PM, James Arryn said:

I'm tempted to leave your memory undisturbed, but 

The second of the 3-part 'tournament' in episode 6, ie the seduction-poison one. Something a 12-year old might have written.

Amazing -- went back to rewatch the scene. I did fall asleep during that part. It's really bad. Like children wrote the dialogue and did the acting.

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My wife is not a comic book fan at all, and is not a big fan of the Marvel movie / TV verse. She has watched most of (possibly all) the movies but not all of the TV shows (I think she saw one episode of Daredevil and that was it for that series). She watched all of Iron Fist over the course of about a week and she liked it.

My son's Kung Fu master also really liked Iron Fist.

I think at this point in proceedings it's a forlorn hope to think there will be any greater integration of the NFMU and the MCU than what we've already seen. IMO the most egregious disconnect will be Spider Man and the NFMU, given Spider Man is a solidly NYC based character with occasional flirtations with the Avengers. Honestly, I think Sony and Netflix/Marvel should come to an arrangement to have those characters make some appearances in Spidey movies. Hell, even if it was just Claire Temple initially.

The NF characters might be too small time to be part of the Avengers world / galaxy saving adventures, but they are certainly big enough fish in the NYC pond to meaningfully interact with Spider Man's day to day activity. You'd think pretty much every kid in Peter Parker's school would have at least talked about this Devil of Hell's Kitchen dude. And also the fact that this billionaire dude turned up not dead after 15 years. That sort of shit makes national news. 

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Most of my meh feelings about the show have been discussed/expressed already in the thread, so I won't repeat them.

I just have one question that I haven't seen expressed here: WTH were all the ninjas? Except for the execution of the Hatchet Man who struck Joy, I don't remember any. Instead we got "Hand" mercs and students? I thought the new drug was a big thing for the Hand? 

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18 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Most of my meh feelings about the show have been discussed/expressed already in the thread, so I won't repeat them.

I just have one question that I haven't seen expressed here: WTH were all the ninjas? Except for the execution of the Hatchet Man who struck Joy, I don't remember any. Instead we got "Hand" mercs and students? I thought the new drug was a big thing for the Hand? 

I think Daredevil and the Punisher put down most of the Hand's active ninjas in NYC.  They're all in physical therapy or buried.

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1 hour ago, Myrddin said:

Most of my meh feelings about the show have been discussed/expressed already in the thread, so I won't repeat them.

I just have one question that I haven't seen expressed here: WTH were all the ninjas? Except for the execution of the Hatchet Man who struck Joy, I don't remember any. Instead we got "Hand" mercs and students? I thought the new drug was a big thing for the Hand? 

I think each main Hand warlord, or whatever they're called, have their own people. The ninjas were Nobu's, who is now dead anyway. And they use the Yakuza for support. Madam Gao, being Chinese, uses Chinese guys. And Bokudo had his own ideas about how to do things. I think the Hand definitely needs to be more developed, as well as those that fight against them in the shadows (not the main characters). Because at the same time as you ask "were are all the ninjas" another may ask were was Stick and the Chaste? Aren't they the sworn enemy of the Hand, too? Maybe Defenders will answer some questions, reveal any connections between the Iron Fist/K'un-Lun and the Chaste.

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It did seem weird to me Gao becoming (for a while) the major Hand leader. There was no indication of much connection between her and Nobu in earlier series. Her guys seemed so un-Hand like, early on I thought it was misdirection. I want death cult ninjas, not thugs with guns.

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On 25/03/2017 at 2:56 PM, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I'm almost in agreement with you here. Finn Jones' Rand was hot garbage, but I'm hoping with some better writing the performance will get better, too. And as much as I am pissed for having wasted 12 hours of my life watching S1, I'd honestly forgive it all if S2 was an adaptation of the Brubaker/Fraction run on Immortal Iron Fist. That's literally the only Iron Fist comics I've ever read, and I love it so much. The history of all the other Iron Fists interwoven with this tournament of all the Immortal Weapons from the other cities--it's just a great arc. Even a loose adaptation of that would be great. So, yeah, I'm still holding out hope S2 will get it's shit together.

However, I'm like 70% sure I'm going to be pissed at The Defenders because there's no fucking way all these Hand shenanigans could be going on in New York and not have Dr. Strange at least mildly involved. Well, okay, they've been vague enough on the timelines of the Netflix MCU that possibly Strange hasn't become THE Sorcerer Supreme yet. But Defenders should at least have The Ancient One or Wu or some ties to some characters in the Dr. Strange film if this is all supposed to be one cohesive universe. Maybe Stick will turn out to be a follower of The Ancient one. 

*sigh*

Am I the only one pissed these Netflix shows aren't more  connected to the greater MCU? I mean, they refer to the Avengers battle with Loki as "The Incident" only once in the entirety of the series. The Meachums never mention Stark Industries once! Why not throw in that thread? The news reporters could've drawn a thread between Danny's actions and those of Tony Stark when he first become Iron Man. Five seasons of Netflix shows and Jessica Jones gave us one stand alone episode that tied the Netflix NYC to the MCU NYC. That's a pretty low average. I'm hoping The Defenders remedies that, but I'm not optimistic. 

I don't want more connection to the MCU. I love these shows but find the MCU very meh. Don't want to invest hours watching all of these films to make sense of the shows, they stand very well on their own.

1 hour ago, The BlackBear said:

It did seem weird to me Gao becoming (for a while) the major Hand leader. There was no indication of much connection between her and Nobu in earlier series. Her guys seemed so un-Hand like, early on I thought it was misdirection. I want death cult ninjas, not thugs with guns.

Was there not some implication in DD S2 that she knew more about Nobu/The Hand than it first seemed? I don't remember to well, I would need to rewatch to check that.

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18 hours ago, Leofric said:

I think Daredevil and the Punisher put down most of the Hand's active ninjas in NYC.  They're all in physical therapy or buried.

Very good point. Luck for Rand that DD and Punisher cleared out the real  threat before he returned home. ;)

Separating the Hand warlords and their own private armies is another point I never considered, well until Bakuto showed up. Before that, I assumed it was a ninja cult, Gao's origins non-withstanding. But they do need cannon fodder and a school taking in poor street kids and hyping them up on the myths of invulnerable ninjas is a good way to refill the ranks.

As Corvinus pointed out, it'll be interesting if this is actual plot legwork for Defenders or just oversight. After DD1 and JJ, I would've assumed legwork. Now I'm not sure anymore.

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On 4/1/2017 at 8:39 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

I don't want more connection to the MCU. I love these shows but find the MCU very meh. Don't want to invest hours watching all of these films to make sense of the shows, they stand very well on their own...

Meh MCU or not, these shows are either all part of the same universe or they're not. If there is a separate "Netflix MU," I'm cool with that. I ain't hatin' on Fox for never having Hulk or Hawkeye show up in an X-Men film. However, that's not the case with Netflix and the MCU, or at least that's not what's been told to fans. Don't show me Stark Tower in the promos for DD & JJ then never once mention Tony Stark or the Avengers. It just smacks of a forced separation where there should be unity. Makes for frustrating fanboy watching. 

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On 4/1/2017 at 8:20 AM, Corvinus said:

 The ninjas were Nobu's, who is now dead anyway. 

Well... slightly dead. He appeared to die in DD season one and that didn't stop him from re-appearing in season 2. And, if I recall correctly, they made it very clear that his body wasn't anywhere to be found after he fell to his "death" at the end of the second season.

And if Iron Fist did nothing else, it certainly demonstrated clearly that the Hand are able to bring people back from the death.

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12 minutes ago, AndrewJ said:

Well... slightly dead. He appeared to die in DD season one and that didn't stop him from re-appearing in season 2. And, if I recall correctly, they made it very clear that his body wasn't anywhere to be found after he fell to his "death" at the end of the second season.

Stick very much beheaded him.

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On 23/03/2017 at 4:27 AM, Bastard of Boston said:

I am usually that guy who always tries to focus on why things are good over why things are bad. I have a hard time doing that with this show -- it's a total struggle for me to find any redeeming qualities, though I developed an affinity for Colleen, Ward, and enjoyed seeing Claire again. I actually don't agree that the critics exaggerated how bad the show is. I think the reviews are fair, even ignoring the controversy.

You can forgive a lot of plot holes when a show is good. Because I struggled so much with getting behind Danny, all of the plot holes were almost unbearable to me. The Colleen reveal came out of nowhere, and not in a good way. It's one thing to make her a Hand agent, but the randomness of her bumping into Danny in episode 1 was utterly ridiculous. You can't even say she was a plant. She was set up in NY, had a dojo, and was coaching kids for a long enough period to develop strong bonds with her students. The utter convenience of having her develop a relationship with Danny is such a huge reach. When Danny confronted her on their first meeting, she even denied she ever marked him. If I liked the show enough, maybe I'd be willing to think about how that whole thing could've worked.

Then, the end with Davos and Joy? Whhhyyyy the hell would Joy "listen" to Davos plot Danny's murder? Joy finding out that her father framed Danny was one of the reasons why she peaced out on everyone. You were this guy's biggest cheerleader, literally, about 20 minutes before you sat down with someone to plot his murder. WTF?

I had so many issues with this season. I do not want it renewed, and I am not looking forward to seeing Finn Jones' Danny Rand taint the Defenders. Even if they wanted to cast a white guy in the role, Finn Jones was bad...whiney and completely unbelievable as a kung fu master.

Finally finished, I took a while due to genuinely forgetting I was watching it for three days. But this pretty much sums it up. No way in hell I would've finished this if not for the Defenders. Had Iron Fist been cool, and played by someone who could act, I could forgive the utter blandness surrounding the character. But what a mess they made here: he's the worst Iron Fist. Characters are lining up to tell him exactly that, he's shit at being the Iron Fist. 1948 Iron Fist, with both fists and the actual Kung-fu skills? Make a series about him. Not this douche. 

Ultimately, for all the bells and whistles that gets put on superhero stories, there's a basic underlining feeling I want; to see something bad about to happen, but a hero turns up and stops it. Yes! Fist pump. This guy showed up, saved the day. DD kicks the crap out of a corridor full of people, saves the kid. JJ was faking the smile, she's outsmarted him! Saved the day. LC just took fifty bullets, saved the day. I didn't even nearly get that feeling with Danny. He's barely ever the best fighter in the room, his highly tempremental fist gets used about four times in the whole series, he's dumb as a rock so he's not gonna outsmart anyone anytime soon. Just whinging and trying to look angry and confused. I mean, it's a series named after a magic fist, punch someone with it! Use it on something other than a truck door! The only cool use it had was in the last episode punching the floor. And if you can't behind Danny, the rest falls apart. I was actively willing the other characters to stay away from him, and I'm pretty sure they all would've been better off.

And then, as what I assume was a joke, he has the audacity to look confused when the monks are slain in the passageway. Oh, what's happened here? Was somebody supposed to be defending this or something? So this series is about a legendary Iron Fist that has been going for generations, being handed to a dickhead. He immediately abandons his post, fucks up everyone's life back in NY, fails to do any real damage to the Hand, then goes home too late. Great. Fist pump.

Didnt have the energy to care about much of the rest, but I have to mention that scene where the board talk about jacking up the drug prices.......wow. It was like an 80's movie villain plot. Terrible. I've seen more realistic scenes of business meetings in Mr Burns office on The Simpsons. 

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15 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

And then, as what I assume was a joke, he has the audacity to look confused when the monks are slain in the passageway. Oh, what's happened here? Was somebody supposed to be defending this or something? So this series is about a legendary Iron Fist that has been going for generations, being handed to a dickhead. He immediately abandons his post, fucks up everyone's life back in NY, fails to do any real damage to the Hand, then goes home too late. Great. Fist pump.

Didnt have the energy to care about much of the rest, but I have to mention that scene where the board talk about jacking up the drug prices.......wow. It was like an 80's movie villain plot. Terrible. I've seen more realistic scenes of business meetings in Mr Burns office on The Simpsons. 

All painfully true. And the conversation between Davos and Joy at the end? Really? Them, of all characters, that might actually have a reason to get rid of Danny? It wasn't easy to watch, that's for sure.

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54 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

All painfully true. And the conversation between Davos and Joy at the end? Really? Them, of all characters, that might actually have a reason to ged rid of Danny? It wasn't easy to watch, that's for sure.

Davos, I get. He wanted --felt entitled-- to be the Iron Fist. Especially given the dead monks in the pass, he wants what "should've been his."

But Joy? Yeah, her turn was out of the blue. In spite of him being a liability to her company, he does share ideals in common and a fond memory of childhood (M&Ms!!!).

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