Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone

[Aetta]

According to the Wiki, which is annotated though I haven't directly referenced the books on this, Jaime and Viserys recall two different timelines as to when Rhaella and Co. left for the big island.  Viserys remembers it beng at night, whereas Jaime says it was a morning departure.

Viserys was old enough to recall the trip, I would think.  Obviously Jaime was, too.  Is there any discussion here as to the discrepancy?  I'm sure there is but havent been able to locate it in any recent threads.

Thoughts on why, other than author error, these two would have stories that contrasted like, well, night and day?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I am unaware that there has been a discussion about this discrepancy, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't. 

But TBH, it's a pretty easy one to solve. Most likely Author discrepancy. But can be explained away by Jaime knowing when they set off and young Viserys's only surviving memory of it being them arriving in the dark later that day. We know that the war took place in the winter, as the year preceding it is known as the false spring.  So early sunset is logical, meaning Visery's at 6 years old at the time only retained the memory of approaching the island in the dark and forgot setting off during the daylight. 

[Lord Lannister]

It could easily just be explained away by a number of things. If they left at four am, you could describe it as being night or morning for example. I terms of credibility, I should say Jaime is likely the more believable of the two however.

[Beren_One_Hand]

Could also be that they left at separate times. Viserys could have left at night as he said and Rhaella could have left during the morning as Jaime said. I don't remember if Jaime mentions seeing Viserys with Rhaella.

[Bowen Marsh]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am unaware that there has been a discussion about this discrepancy, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't. 

But TBH, it's a pretty easy one to solve. Most likely Author discrepancy. But can be explained away by Jaime knowing when they set off and young Viserys's only surviving memory of it being them arriving in the dark later that day. We know that the war took place in the winter, as the year preceding it is known as the false spring.  So early sunset is logical, meaning Visery's at 6 years old at the time only retained the memory of approaching the island in the dark and forgot setting off during the daylight. 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

It could easily just be explained away by a number of things. If they left at four am, you could describe it as being night or morning for example. I terms of credibility, I should say Jaime is likely the more believable of the two however.

 

35 minutes ago, Beren_One_Hand said:

Could also be that they left at separate times. Viserys could have left at night as he said and Rhaella could have left during the morning as Jaime said. I don't remember if Jaime mentions seeing Viserys with Rhaella.

All very good explanations for the possible discrepancy.  I'm thinking it is likely as Lord Lannister said.  It was dark and some would say it was still night.  Jaime, an adult (though no smarter than Viserys) would be more precise. 

[Aetta]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

It could easily just be explained away by a number of things. If they left at four am, you could describe it as being night or morning for example. I terms of credibility, I should say Jaime is likely the more believable of the two however.

The Wiki says Viserys' memory is a "midnight" departure, but again, I'd better look that one up in the books.

[Aetta]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bowen Marsh said:

 

 

All very good explanations for the possible discrepancy.  I'm thinking it is likely as Lord Lannister said.  It was dark and some would say it was still night.  Jaime, an adult (though no smarter than Viserys) would be more precise. 

I suppose the REAL reason I am asking is because we have some fuckwittery about Dany not being in Rhaella's belly. See ridiculous conspiracy theories on Dany's birth mother.

However, not as absurd, though perhaps just as unlikely, is that there was a detour to Dorne. The 'lemon tree & red door' theories, we'll call them.  I just don't think Viserys' memory could be that far off the mark, to be describing a completely different boat trip on another day, hell, another year, well after Jaime saw them leave KL.

[Bowen Marsh]

39 minutes ago, Aetta said:

I suppose the REAL reason I am asking is because we have some fuckwittery about Dany not being in Rhaella's belly. See ridiculous conspiracy theories on Dany's birth mother.

However, not as absurd, though perhaps just as unlikely, is that there was a detour to Dorne. The 'lemon tree & red door' theories, we'll call them.  I just don't think Viserys' memory could be that far off the mark, to be describing a completely different boat trip on another day, hell, another year, well after Jaime saw them leave KL.

The memory of the lemon tree is likely due to V&D constantly moving from one free city to the next.  Countless houses and rooms they must have stayed in.  I don't believe there is anything more to it than that.  Memories getting jumbled together. 

[Lord Varys]

Here is the correct quote:

Quote

Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King’s Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother’s womb.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails.

This is Dany imagining how things were on the basis of information she got from Viserys. He might have told her of his memories of him being awake in the night, watching the stars, etc. It could easily have taken them a day and a night (or even longer) to get to Dragonstone, if the winds were against them. The place is pretty far out in Blackwater Bay.

But other things are wrong there, too. We know Viserys was born in 276 AC, which makes him at best a boy of seven by the time he and Rhaella went to Dragonstone, not eight. He would only have been eight by the time they left Dragonstone for Braavos some time after Dany's birth in 284 AC.

It is easily imaginable how Dany got that wrong, though. Viserys may have told her that when 'they fled' he was eight, meaning their flight from Dragonstone but Dany thinking he was referring to the escape from KL.

And who knows - perhaps Viserys had embellished or changed the story to make it less frightful and more romantic. I don't think Rhaella could hide the injuries Aerys left on her body from Viserys. She may have not told him that he was responsible (although Viserys might have figured that out - or not) but Viserys clearly didn't trouble Dany with stories of that.

[Aetta]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Here is the correct quote:

This is Dany imagining how things were on the basis of information she got from Viserys. He might have told her of his memories of him being awake in the night, watching the stars, etc. It could easily have taken them a day and a night (or even longer) to get to Dragonstone, if the winds were against them. The place is pretty far out in Blackwater Bay.

But other things are wrong there, too. We know Viserys was born in 276 AC, which makes him at best a boy of seven by the time he and Rhaella went to Dragonstone, not eight. He would only have been eight by the time they left Dragonstone for Braavos some time after Dany's birth in 284 AC.

It is easily imaginable how Dany got that wrong, though. Viserys may have told her that when 'they fled' he was eight, meaning their flight from Dragonstone but Dany thinking he was referring to the escape from KL.

And who knows - perhaps Viserys had embellished or changed the story to make it less frightful and more romantic. I don't think Rhaella could hide the injuries Aerys left on her body from Viserys. She may have not told him that he was responsible (although Viserys might have figured that out - or not) but Viserys clearly didn't trouble Dany with stories of that.

Thank you for being uh, not as lazy as me. 

So, this is third hand and is a broader spectrum than Jaime's one-point-in-time perspective.  Nothing to see here, then, at least in terms of conspiracies as to why Viserys would remember something differently than Jaime.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Aetta said:

So, this is third hand and is a broader spectrum than Jaime's one-point-in-time perspective.  Nothing to see here, then, at least in terms of conspiracies as to why Viserys would remember something differently than Jaime.

Exactly. And even Jaime's memory is likely faulty in many regards. He is remembering stuff that happened over a decade ago. I think his memory of his last interaction with Rhaella and his last conversation with Rhaegar are reasonably accurate but a lot of the other stuff remembers from court might be faulty. His life would have consisted of many shifts of boring guard duty, and similar things would easily enough have bled into each other, making it difficult to pin down when exactly something happened he can recall.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

 

1 hour ago, Aetta said:

The Wiki says Viserys' memory is a "midnight" departure, but again, I'd better look that one up in the books.

Saying a "midnight" departure may not necessarily mean they left dead on 0:00 hours, or even near to it. It could just mean "the dead of night", which could be early morning, or it could be purely figurative. If someone says they did a "midnight flit" they don't mean they actually left in the night, but that they left secretly. Dany is remembering second-hand information, and Viserys saying they left when it was dark could easily be twisted to "midnight" in her mind, particularly when taking into account poetic license. 

Tbh, it could be author error, or unreliable narrator. I'm never 100% certain in cases like this, and an unworthy part of me thinks that GRRM sometimes gets away with inconsistencies as a result of the "unreliable narrator" get-out-clause. 

[Lord Lannister]

5 hours ago, Aetta said:

I suppose the REAL reason I am asking is because we have some fuckwittery about Dany not being in Rhaella's belly. See ridiculous conspiracy theories on Dany's birth mother.

However, not as absurd, though perhaps just as unlikely, is that there was a detour to Dorne. The 'lemon tree & red door' theories, we'll call them.  I just don't think Viserys' memory could be that far off the mark, to be describing a completely different boat trip on another day, hell, another year, well after Jaime saw them leave KL.

There are some odd inconsistencies about Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door, but I'm not a full fledged lemongate supporter just yet. I should imagine -IF- there was a baby switch with Dany, it would've taken place after the Stormbirth. Perhaps as Willem was smuggling the two Targaryen children out of Dragonstone, ensuring at least one Targaryen would survive. Or perhaps in Braavos as part of the pact Willem Darry made with Prince Oberyn. In either circumstance I cannot imagine Viserys would be party to either arrangement.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

There's also the possibility that the left the Red Keep in the morning, but waited until night time to set sail. Less chance of discovery that they were leaving if they went at night. They could have spent the day in some dockside house or on the ship.

[Aetta]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

There are some odd inconsistencies about Dany's memories of the House with the Red Door, but I'm not a full fledged lemongate supporter just yet. I should imagine -IF- there was a baby switch with Dany, it would've taken place after the Stormbirth. Perhaps as Willem was smuggling the two Targaryen children out of Dragonstone, ensuring at least one Targaryen would survive. Or perhaps in Braavos as part of the pact Willem Darry made with Prince Oberyn. In either circumstance I cannot imagine Viserys would be party to either arrangement.

Intrigue ensues!

[Aetta]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's also the possibility that the left the Red Keep in the morning, but waited until night time to set sail. Less chance of discovery that they were leaving if they went at night. They could have spent the day in some dockside house or on the ship.

I'm gonna go with Jaime actually having seen Ashara Dayne with a platinum wig departing on the Shy Maid

[Therae]

 

Quote

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. (FFC, Jaime II)

By the time they got to the ship, boarded, loaded the royal luggage, waited for the right tide, who knows what time it might have been. I don't think the queen left in any hurry or in any secrecy or she would not have ridden in the royal wheelhouse. It doesn't seem like it's much of a stretch that they would be under oars en route when the middle of the night rolled around.

I would, however, be inclined to think that Viserys was adding a little drama to the tale with some compression and a dash of urgency resulting in the midnight flight version, and maybe Dany herself added some high adventure to the story in her young girl's imagination, like her image of Rhaegar carrying off his lady love to save her from wedding the future usurper--whatever the truth may be regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think it's safe to suppose that the prince did not interrupt her wedding with bared steel and snatch the wolf maid from Robert's hands, which is the impression I got from Dany's cold-feet-at-the-altar musings.

Quote

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. (DOD, Dany VII)

 

 

 

[Therae]

7 minutes ago, Aetta said:

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's also the possibility that the left the Red Keep in the morning, but waited until night time to set sail. Less chance of discovery that they were leaving if they went at night. They could have spent the day in some dockside house or on the ship.

I'm gonna go with Jaime actually having seen Ashara Dayne with a platinum wig departing on the Shy Maid

Or this.

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Aetta said:

Intrigue ensues!

Well between Houses Velaryon and Celtigar right there, producing an infant with Valyrian features might not be impossible. I happen to think we'd know more about either house and it's members if this was the case, but there it is.

[cgrav]

18 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well between Houses Velaryon and Celtigar right there, producing an infant with Valyrian features might not be impossible. I happen to think we'd know more about either house and it's members if this was the case, but there it is.

Arianne notes to herself that she (Martell) and Darkstar (Dayne) would produce a child "as beautiful as the dragonlords".