Quellon

Why are some of the coolest and most macho characters gay?

90 posts in this topic

It is true. And I wonder why. Is Martin himself gay or is he pro-gay rights? I mean...Oberyn Martell-bisexual. Jon Connington-gay. Lyn Corbray-gay. Daeron Targaryen (Aegon V's son)-presumably gay. All those four are kickass characters, in one way or another or several ways. Renly is also a charming and dashing character that many people like and he's also gay. But I wouldn't call him cool or macho.

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I don't think it needs to have anything to do with GRRMs politics or orientation. LGTBQ characters are way under represented in this genre and the fact that they exist in ASOIAF makes the world more believable to me. 

GRRM has a lot of great characters and sexual orientation/gender has nothing to do with machoness or fighting ability either in his world or in the real one.

On a side note, this is a story where there are hundreds of characters with similar traits (fighting ability, nobility etc...). Sexual orientation, gender, or other traits can help readers keep track of them all.

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I didn't know jon connington was gay? Also there are so many characters it was bound to happen that some of the cool ones were gay. It happened alot more in mid evil times then people think especially among the nobility but it was kept discreet.

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Because they are all from the ancient ruler Tom of House Finland.

 

He does this in several of his past stories as well. They just are.

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Probably for the same reason Rob Halford is more metal than pretty much anyone and gay. Gay and awesome are not mutually exclusive. :)

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, Quellon said:

It is true. And I wonder why. Is Martin himself gay or is he pro-gay rights? I mean...Oberyn Martell-bisexual. Jon Connington-gay. Lyn Corbray-gay. Daeron Targaryen (Aegon V's son)-presumably gay. All those four are kickass characters, in one way or another or several ways. Renly is also a charming and dashing character that many people like and he's also gay. But I wouldn't call him cool or macho.

Because there have always been gay people and there will always be gay people.  There are literally thousands of named characters and hundreds of those are warriors. You can name four who the author decided to tell us are not straight,

What is your point? Does he have to be gay to write about interesting characters who happen to be gay?

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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Forbid that an author has homosexual characters that don't conform to society stereotypes.

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39 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I didn't know jon connington was gay?

Ah... It's quite subtle

"I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell" (JonCon)

There is a bunch of gay characters in the series, some cases are more explicit than others, but I don't think that any of these characters is portrayed in a better light than their heterosexual counterparts. Overall they are quite normal, some better than others. 

What I wonder is - as far as I can tell - there are no lesbian characters, except for few who have done some lesbian experimentation (Dany/Cersei/Ellaria). Or did I miss anyone?

 

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At least mention Loras Tyrell in this thread. The knight of flowers. Half the maidens dream of him ... but all they can hope for is a smile and flower.

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1 minute ago, rotting sea cow said:

Ah... It's quite subtle

"I rose too high, loved too hard, dared too much. I tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell" (JonCon)

There is a bunch of gay characters in the series, some cases are more explicit than others, but I don't think that any of these characters is portrayed in a better light than their heterosexual counterparts. Overall they are quite normal, some better than others. 

What I wonder is - as far as I can tell - there are no lesbian characters, except for few who have done some lesbian experimentation (Dany/Cersei/Ellaria). Or did I miss anyone?

 

ellaria was bisexual not experimenting. the women who cersei slept with was lesbian or bisexual.

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9 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

What I wonder is - as far as I can tell - there are no lesbian characters, except for few who have done some lesbian experimentation (Dany/Cersei/Ellaria). Or did I miss anyone?

Nymeria Sand

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Why ask why? It is GRRM story as long as his characters both gay or strait are neither stereotypes or one dimensional all is good .

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54 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Because there have always been gay people and there will always be gay people.  There are literally thousands of named characters and hundreds of those are warriors. You can name four who the author decided to tell us are not straight,

What is your point? Does he have to be gay to write about interesting characters who happen to be gay?

My point is...I am just curious why Martin made all those characters gay. I mean, there are quite many gay or bi characters in the series and a few lesbian ones (or latently lesbian anyway) also.

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17 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

ellaria was bisexual not experimenting. the women who cersei slept with was lesbian or bisexual.

Ellaria, maybe, do you have further proof that it's not experimentation? Taena on the other hand, not sure. It just seems to me she is manipulating Cersei.

9 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nymeria Sand

Really? Could you please elaborate?

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13 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Why ask why? It is GRRM story as long as his characters both gay or strait are neither stereotypes or one dimensional all is good .

Why not? We are here to ask questions, not?

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7 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Really? Could you please elaborate?

Nym glanced over a shoulder, to where her companions rode a dozen lengths behind. "I was abed with the Fowler twins when the word reached me," the captain heard her say. (A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards)

This and plenty of other references to her closeness to Jeyne and Jennelyn Fowler.

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I seriously needed to google that Daeron fella. Seriously, the guy is a glorified footnote (that is, to the "World..." book, where he's mentioned whooping seven times, not to the series proper, where he isn't mentioned at all). If you need to dig that deep to find one, then it indirectly proves that there aren't that many inconveniently cool gay characters after all. The fact that you count Lyn Corbray among "cool" is a little disturbing, BTW.

Yes, it is obviously tied to GRRM's world views, he said as much in interviews: he aimed to defy old, stale fantasy tropes. That's the reason for Brienne the Beauty, too ("traditional" fantasy allows for female warriors only as "sexy warrior princesses", usually clad in chainmail thong bikini).

(GRRM's married, to a woman, BTW. So prob'ly not gay).

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I don't think it matters. But the only truly badass character OP has mentioned is Oberyn and we only have rumors about him being bi. He may be. He may not be.

Corbray is said to be badass but I haven't seen anything impressive from him. Jon Con has a history of not doing so well, but seems to have learned something from his past mistakes. We need to see more of both of them before determining their level of badassery.

I recall nothing about Daeron, son of Aegon V, being particularly badass. But maybe I missed something.

Leaving Loras out was a serious oversight. People compare the guy to Jaime Lannister. He definitely deserves a mention.

14 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nym glanced over a shoulder, to where her companions rode a dozen lengths behind. "I was abed with the Fowler twins when the word reached me," the captain heard her say. (A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards)

This and plenty of other references to her closeness to Jeyne and Jennelyn Fowler.

Very likely on Nym. Though it could be that they are her bedfellows and not lovers. I can't see the Dornish in general being quite as vigilant about guarding their girls' virginity, but it's possible. Nym's mother isn't Dornish, and who knows what customs of Volantis she does or doesn't choose to follow.

Still I lean toward a yes on Nym. And I expect great badass things from her in King's Landing.

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10 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nym glanced over a shoulder, to where her companions rode a dozen lengths behind. "I was abed with the Fowler twins when the word reached me," the captain heard her say. (A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards)

This and plenty of other references to her closeness to Jeyne and Jennelyn Fowler.

I knew that reference, but I always took it as just sleeping, same as Margaery with her cousins. It seems that it's pretty normal for high born ladies to have female companions in bed, which of course doesn't mean a sexual relationship. I'll look closer next time.

 

12 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

The fact that you count Lyn Corbray among "cool" is a little disturbing, BTW.

LOL, same with poor sad bitter JonCon. There is little coolness in him.

 

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Posted (edited)

On 3/19/2017 at 5:06 PM, Quellon said:

My point is...I am just curious why Martin made all those characters gay. I mean, there are quite many gay or bi characters in the series and a few lesbian ones (or latently lesbian anyway) also.

Your question surmised that he must have be either gay himself or pro-gay rights (as opposed to being anti-gay rights, I suppose....) because he made those particular characters  gay.  It's a stupid, offensive question and you have no point

 

Edited by Daena the Defiant
grammatical nits, punctuation tweaks

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