Quellon

Why are some of the coolest and most macho characters gay?

90 posts in this topic

well not all the gay characters in game of thrones are cool. That powerful merchant guy form qarth (Not sure if I spelled it right) the one who wanted to marry dany was gay. Remember dany saying he was paying attention to the same dancers she was.

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8 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

well not all the gay characters in game of thrones are cool. That powerful merchant guy form qarth (Not sure if I spelled it right) the one who wanted to marry dany was gay. Remember dany saying he was paying attention to the same dancers she was.

Yeah, Xaro. And Jon Connington is as cool as a wet blanket. 

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Why gay characters? Because there were gay kings, queens, aristocrats and commoners in real life history. Edward II of England was homo sexual, who favoured his manly-love Piers Gaveston so much so that he gave more to him in importance, attention, titles, wealth and land than his own Queen Isabella of France (known as the She-Wolf). Early in her marriage with Edward they were quite amicable but later on she went  up against Edward II and Gaveston. It caused major rifts in the realm. Martin has stated he reads a lot of history and finds the stories of what people can do to each other in real life so compelling that he uses them in his narrative. That's why he writes about them...both gay and non-gay.

 

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15 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

Yeah, Xaro. And Jon Connington is as cool as a wet blanket. 

Aaw, don't be like that towards poor JonCon. The guy is pretty cool.. 
They say he was a pretty strong warrior in his heyday. He was a member of the Rhaegar Squad™!! He went after Robert in Stoney Sept and was fighting people on rooftops and junk.. Fought in the Golden Company, jumped in a hell river to punch a rock zombie in the face and save Tyrion, successfully invaded Westeros and is taking over important places already. The guy is tame, but cool. 

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31 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

Yeah, Xaro. And Jon Connington is as cool as a wet blanket. 

And characters like Renly, not to mention Lyn Corbray, are rather negative. Loras is a badass and have some redemptive qualities (like genuine love for Renly, loyalty to his family and honesty of feelings), but amounts to an arrogant prick. Oberyn is everyone's bae, but it's not even confirmed he's really bisexual. It's only confirmed Ellaria is, and she's definitely a positive example, but she doesn't wave any weapon, so I suppose she doesn't count as "cool".

As for other characters who may be straight, but go far in doing "gay things" onscreen than any of the aforementioned: Dany, who is at least debatable, Taena Merryweather and frigging Cersei.

Oh, and let's not forget Euron the likely brother-molester. And wasn't one of the Bloody Mummers a homo pedophile (like Lyn Corbray) either?

Seriously, disproportionately positive portrayal of gay characters suggesting that the author is immensely pro-gay? Seriously?

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6 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

There's actually nothing in the books -- religious or otherwise -- that frowns upon homosexuality. It was the show that decided to make the Sparrows some hardcore Catholic analogy. They hate incest and polygamy, but that's about it as far as we know. And in Essos things are apparently much more lax. It was basically common knowledge within the Red Keep that Renly and Loras were banging, so that's a pretty "homoromantic lifestyle." But even outside of royalty, same-sex relations are fairly standard. We know there are male prostitutes or bed slaves in a lot of places. And in the Free Cities it doesn't seem to be a big deal to bang the same sex. 

Obviously there's still some stigma which mainly comes from inheritance and masculinity. You're expected to have a wife and children to carry your name. And in places like the Iron Islands or the North, your precious masculinity is everything, so one would be ridiculed or shunned. But that's not the same as death or imprisonment. 

@Jak Scaletongue pretty much summed it up perfectly. 

I think "frowns upon" is too active.  It's a rather passive thing in the culture-that is to say (or write) that much emphasis is placed on progeny and inheritance (as you noted), hence the need to establish heterosexual relations.  

And there is the ergi vs. homosexuality concept in there somewhere.   Which is actually is a partial solution to the OP's question, the conflation of feminity with homosexuality and why GRRM wanted to break that mold in literature.

Death or imprisonment....depends on the ruler.  WWJD?  Joffrey, that is, not Jesus.

I also don't think Loras and Renly having sex makes them homoromantic. I think love letters, picking up each others dirty breeches off the floor and putting them in the hamper, telling each other how skinny their butts look in that armor, enjoying bubble baths together...that would be more romantic than sexual.  And the romantic aspect was actually overplayed in the show.

JonCon would've romanced the hell out of Rhaegar.  But Rhaegar hated gingers, so......

To the OP's question at hand: the coolest and most macho character is not gay.  Bound in a tree for decades? Yes. Incestuous? Absolutely! Gay? Don't think so unless there's a big reveal coming up.

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On 20.3.2017 at 2:25 AM, Renly's Banana said:

Are you asking why gay men show any trait other than flamboyant? Or why they can do something other than have gay sex? I don't exactly know what you're asking here. I don't want to presume, but I get the feeling you don't really have any knowledge or exposure to gay people outside of stereotypes you've seen on movies or tv. 

If you live in a medieval, tough world, you're going to be a medieval tough person. This, much like in real life, has very little to do with sexuality. If you study history like GRRM has, you'll know there were plenty of gay or bisexual "badass" men in it; you don't have to be "pro-gay rights" to notice and acknowledge this. It's simply just there. Some are brave and skilled, like Loras Tyrell, some are scheming cowards, like Hother Umber, and most are just kind of there.. trying to stay alive, like Satin. Almost like the normal people or something.

I will admit though, GRRM does tend to have a "gay guy" trope that you seem to have picked up on. And I think that's what you're getting at here. Whenever you read about some guy being "charming and clean-shaven", they're almost always a confirmed gay, like Renly, Leanor Valeryion, Daemon II, etc. I think JonCon and Hother are probably the only two that we know of that have some facial hair. 
But anyway, TL;DR: the mark of a good writer (and a good person) is defining characters by their motives and ambitions instead of sexuality. 

PS: Renly is cool wtf!
PPS: yeah GRRM is super gay. He dated Elton John in the mid 90's. He ghostwrote Brokeback Mountain too. no homo

Where do I go to nominate you for Supreme Mod?

LORAS!! Dammit, forgot all about him! I knew there was one more.

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19 hours ago, Tianzi said:

OMG, LGBT characters having personalities and/or being successful, how shocking.

First, the only decidedly cool character here is Oberyn Martell (I don't know about the Targaryen boy, didn't read prequels), who is Dornish and as such is just free-er to express whatever sexual desires he has. And it's not even confirmed he's bisexual. You're confusing books with show.

The second coolest would be probably Renly, who has also a bit of Robert-like macho-obnoxiousness in him, but I'm surprised Loras isn't here. One of the greatest warriors in the Seven Kingdoms, anyone?

Lyn Corbray is a deviant, Connington is a strict, humourless, dutiful dude, who doesn't even stand out with those traits, because the series has characters like Tywin or Stannis.

I guess that if there was a truly macho character, like Victarion, who would happen to be gay and consequently have a big chip on his shoulder because of this, it would be interesting to explore. But we don't have a theme like that. Seven Kingdoms is just a place where is better to be a badass, no matter if you're gay or straight.

Or are you just complaining that some characters you like happen to be of sexual orientation you don't like?

First of all, Jon Connington I am referring to was the YOUNG Jon Connington mostly, not Old Griff. He was described as vigorous, proud, headstrong and a strong warrior. He still has some if not all of those qualities, only slightly reduced in vigour because of his age. But he DOES take Griffin's Roost after all, if he was just a tired, dour old man he never would have been able to do that. He's just awesome and one of my favorite characters. As for the last question: NO. I am trying to find the reason why Martin tends to make many gay or lesbian characters PLAYERS, people who are not there just to stand in the background.

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9 hours ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

Yeah, Xaro.

Indeed, forgot about this one.

If people are looking for  the "coolest" gay in the books, you have it in Hother "Whorebane" Umber

There was also a gay couple at the Wall

Quote

"Nor Garth," said the queen's man she knew as Alf of Runnymudd, one of the first to exchange his seven false gods for the truth of R'hllor. "Garth's too clever for them wildlings."

...

"Three," Jon told them. "Black Jack, Hairy Hal, and Garth."

Alf of Runnymudd let out a howl loud enough to wake sleepers in the Shadow Tower.

- ADWD, Melisandre

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On 19/03/2017 at 10:09 PM, Quellon said:

Why not? We are here to ask questions, not?

Are you also going to ask why Martin made so many blond characters? Or female ones? Does that mean he must be blonde/a woman or part of some Aryan organization/the feminist movement? 

Wait...how many characters are Lefties? There must be some leftie over rightie campaign in the book!

Martin has gay characters because gay people exist in real life and always have existed, even in the real life middle ages and some of them were badass. Martin has busloads of characters, it would be weirder if none of them was gay/bi.

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40 minutes ago, Quellon said:

First of all, Jon Connington I am referring to was the YOUNG Jon Connington mostly, not Old Griff. He was described as vigorous, proud, headstrong and a strong warrior. He still has some if not all of those qualities, only slightly reduced in vigour because of his age. But he DOES take Griffin's Roost after all, if he was just a tired, dour old man he never would have been able to do that. He's just awesome and one of my favorite characters.

Well, JonCon aged and remained gay for Rhaegar, so it's safe to say that his gayness wasn't related to his youth and coolness, lol.

41 minutes ago, Quellon said:

As for the last question: NO. I am trying to find the reason why Martin tends to make many gay or lesbian characters PLAYERS, people who are not there just to stand in the background.

Name one lesbian player. OK, Taena maybe.

And the answer is: because sexuality of characters in the background is less explored? And their gay activities would be obviously less known facts than marriages/visiting brothels.

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10 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Oh, and let's not forget Euron the likely brother-molester. And wasn't one of the Bloody Mummers a homo pedophile (like Lyn Corbray) either?

Small point, but let's not refer to characters who molest boys as "gay". Their crimes have nothing to do with sexual orientation. Rape isn't a sexual preference it's about power. 

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Tianzi said:

And characters like Renly, not to mention Lyn Corbray, are rather negative. Loras is a badass and have some redemptive qualities (like genuine love for Renly, loyalty to his family and honesty of feelings), but amounts to an arrogant prick. Oberyn is everyone's bae, but it's not even confirmed he's really bisexual. It's only confirmed Ellaria is, and she's definitely a positive example, but she doesn't wave any weapon, so I suppose she doesn't count as "cool".

As for other characters who may be straight, but go far in doing "gay things" onscreen than any of the aforementioned: Dany, who is at least debatable, Taena Merryweather and frigging Cersei.

Oh, and let's not forget Euron the likely brother-molester. And wasn't one of the Bloody Mummers a homo pedophile (like Lyn Corbray) either?

Seriously, disproportionately positive portrayal of gay characters suggesting that the author is immensely pro-gay? Seriously?

 

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Small point, but let's not refer to characters who molest boys as "gay". Their crimes have nothing to do with sexual orientation. Rape isn't a sexual preference it's about power. 

I'm with Shouldve Taken The Black - "pedophilia" and "homosexuality" are two COMPLETELY different things, regardless of the gender of the child.  Pedophiles prefer children because they're weak, meek, generally obedient, and pliable with threats; which is exactly what gets pedophiles off.  Homosexuals simply prefer sexual encounters with people of the same gender as themselves, most of those sexual encounters being of the same sort as any other consensual sexual relationship between people who are of the age of consent or older (which is to say, rape happens, coercion happens; but it's not a pillar of their sexual identity like it is with pedophiles).  Pedophiles are attracted to children (or either sex) because they can control and dominate them.  Gay people are just attracted to people who have the same genitals as themselves.  It's not about sexual pleasure for pedophiles; it's about control and power.  Gay people, on the other hand, are exactly the same as any other "normal" sexual human...like most heterosexual couples, gay couples prefer their partners to be consenting and into the act; not scared to death of this adult who keeps threatening to do horrible things to friends and family if the kid doesn't do as they're told.  Pedophiles, as a rule, get off on the coercion and non-consensual act that the children they're victimizing barely understand.  Homosexuality does not, as a rule, rely on coercion, non-consent, or victims. 

So on that note; Euron and Lyn aren't "gay" - they're predators and child molesters.  End of story.  Euron would HAPPILY harm, molest, rape, and overall victimize ANYONE he feels like, regardless of their gender or sex.  It's not like he's leaving alone the women and only victimizing men.  He'll happily rape his brother AND his brother's wife - that's not a "gay" man.  That's a predator, plain and simple.

 

ETA: Dany: I don't *think* Dany can quite be classified as "gay" or even "bi" - I kinda got the impression that her handmaid (brainfart: can't remember which one) was simply a masturbatory aid rather than a "lesbian" encounter.  It's not like Dany's got some vibrators stashed somewhere!

Edited by Jak Scaletongue

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3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Small point, but let's not refer to characters who molest boys as "gay". Their crimes have nothing to do with sexual orientation. Rape isn't a sexual preference it's about power. 

Oh hey, someone beat me to it.

"Why do gay people exist in literature?" Yeah, let's do an investigation. 

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15 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

Why gay characters? Because there were gay kings, queens, aristocrats and commoners in real life history. Edward II of England was homo sexual, who favoured his manly-love Piers Gaveston so much so that he gave more to him in importance, attention, titles, wealth and land than his own Queen Isabella of France (known as the She-Wolf). Early in her marriage with Edward they were quite amicable but later on she went  up against Edward II and Gaveston. It caused major rifts in the realm. Martin has stated he reads a lot of history and finds the stories of what people can do to each other in real life so compelling that he uses them in his narrative. That's why he writes about them...both gay and non-gay.

 

Thanks to Marlowe, Derek Jarman and others, people believe that Edward II was "the gay king", but there's little contemporary evidence for it.  He was certainly very close to, and in some respects, dominated by, various royal favourites, like Piers Gaveston, Roger Damory, and Hugh De Spenser.  But, who knows if they were lovers?  There's no reason to doubt that his marriage to Isabella was a genuinely loving one for many years (they had four children together and were generally reckoned to be close).  Their marriage did eventually fall apart, but that was due to political disagreements, and the mutual loathing that she and Despenser had for each other.

When they got married, he was 24 and she was 12.  It was natural, and standard practice for the time, that they would not have had sexual relations until she turned 15 or 16.

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4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Small point, but let's not refer to characters who molest boys as "gay". Their crimes have nothing to do with sexual orientation. Rape isn't a sexual preference it's about power. 

 

57 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

So on that note; Euron and Lyn aren't "gay" - they're predators and child molesters.  End of story.  Euron would HAPPILY harm, molest, rape, and overall victimize ANYONE he feels like, regardless of their gender or sex.  It's not like he's leaving alone the women and only victimizing men.  He'll happily rape his brother AND his brother's wife - that's not a "gay" man.  That's a predator, plain and simple.

They (Lyn and Septon Utt) still prefer boys over girls, that's why they're on the list. No argument that they're predators and deviants, but sexual violence acts they engage in happen to be homosexual as well. Euron is 'anything that moves' kind of rapist. All of them illustrate the point that Martin DOES NOT engage in any kind of 'positive discrimination here', there are good people and monsters there regardless of which way they swing.

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18 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

They (Lyn and Septon Utt) still prefer boys over girls, that's why they're on the list. No argument that they're predators and deviants, but sexual violence acts they engage in happen to be homosexual as well. Euron is 'anything that moves' kind of rapist. All of them illustrate the point that Martin DOES NOT engage in any kind of 'positive discrimination here', there are good people and monsters there regardless of which way they swing.

Who they rape has zilch to do with sexuality. This is like...a science fact. It's about power, not the gender of their victims, and who they have access to. Predators and child molesters can also be gay, but it's like saying they can also have brown hair. You don't look at the victims as an indication of how someone "swings."

An example of Martin not doing positive discrimination is that Nym is a giant asshole with a plan to murder a kid for his grandfather's crimes, and she happens to be a lesbian. 

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Is there evidence beyond the Littlefinger quote to suggest that Lyn Corbray is a paedophile?

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Aetta said:

I also don't think Loras and Renly having sex makes them homoromantic. I think love letters, picking up each others dirty breeches off the floor and putting them in the hamper, telling each other how skinny their butts look in that armor, enjoying bubble baths together...that would be more romantic than sexual.  And the romantic aspect was actually overplayed in the show.

Quote

"House Tyrell continues through my brothers," Ser Loras said. "It is not necessary for a third son to wed, or breed." 
"Not necessary, but some find it pleasant. What of love?"
"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." 

-- Tyrion II, ASOS

"What did you do with Renly?" 
"I buried him with mine own hands, in a place he showed me once when I was a squire at Storm's End. No one shall ever find him there to disturb his rest." He looked at Jaime defiantly. "I will defend King Tommen with all my strength, I swear it. I will give my life for his if need be. But I will never betray Renly, by word or deed."

-- Jaime VIII, ASOS

If that ain't romantic I dunno what is. 

Edited by Renly's Banana

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...and just when I thought the thread was already sufficiently disturbing, we started dissecting what's inside the souls of rapists and pedophiles.

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