Quellon

Why are some of the coolest and most macho characters gay?

90 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

If that ain't romantic I dunno what is. 

It's Loras' side, we don't know Renly's. (and that's part of why I consider Loras more sympathetic than Renly)

40 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

Who they rape has zilch to do with sexuality. This is like...a science fact. It's about power, not the gender of their victims, and who they have access to. Predators and child molesters can also be gay, but it's like saying they can also have brown hair. You don't look at the victims as an indication of how someone "swings."

An example of Martin not doing positive discrimination is that Nym is a giant asshole with a plan to murder a kid for his grandfather's crimes, and she happens to be a lesbian. 

Can I get a source to this science fact?

Also not sure about Martin's outlook to that, and we're discussing Martin books here. We have little things like Cersei claiming that a pretty girl like Shae would have a 'busy night' when the Red Keep falls and the Mountain's men tended to line up for 'one girl, prettier than the others'. A girl beautiful like Sansa attracts all sorts of creeps. So, sexual attractiveness preference. Of course, Lollys or Brienne also aren't safe, but to think of it, the Bloody Mummers for one were more interested in raping Brienne than Jaime (and it has nothing to do with him being a Lannister, since the Goat wanted to 'ruin' him). So, gender preference. Seems to be more correlation than with hair colour.

Agree about Lady Nym. Also Renly, who contrary to his TV counterpart is just a greedy asshole who doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities.

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

It's Loras' side, we don't know Renly's. (and that's part of why I consider Loras more sympathetic than Renly)

I don't exactly know what more proof you want. Or how much proof you'll get, since Renly was never a POV, so..

I guess we'll never know if Joanna ever truly loved Tywin, since we don't know her "side."

Edited by Renly's Banana

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23 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

It's Loras' side, we don't know Renly's. (and that's part of why I consider Loras more sympathetic than Renly)

Can I get a source to this science fact?

Also not sure about Martin's outlook to that, and we're discussing Martin books here. We have little things like Cersei claiming that a pretty girl like Shae would have a 'busy night' when the Red Keep falls and the Mountain's men tended to line up for 'one girl, prettier than the others'. A girl beautiful like Sansa attracts all sorts of creeps. So, sexual attractiveness preference. Of course, Lollys or Brienne also aren't safe, but to think of it, the Bloody Mummers for one were more interested in raping Brienne than Jaime (and it has nothing to do with him being a Lannister, since the Goat wanted to 'ruin' him). So, gender preference. Seems to be more correlation than with hair colour.

Agree about Lady Nym. Also Renly, who contrary to his TV counterpart is just a greedy asshole who doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities.

This shit's as old as the hills. Oh hai, first google result: http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original

You seem to be confusing character PoV for author. In fairness, I think the lack of sexual assault within the Night's Watch is highly unrealistic, but frankly Martin's views on this don't matter, since he's not the one in this thread calling Corbray and Euron gay. The issue is the people who are, sitting here in 2017, and doing so on the basis of the gender of victims, which is something that's been done to demonize the LGBT+ community for a long long time.  So stahp.

This whole thread is a crap shack.

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14 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

I don't exactly know what more proof you want. Or how much proof you'll get, since Renly was never a POV, so..

I guess we'll never know if Joanna ever truly loved Tywin, since we don't know her "side."

Loras wasn't a POV either, though obviously he had the advantage of being alive longer. And for Renly we could only count on (higly unlikely) somebody else reminiscing his actions that would shed more light on his feelings. Ditto for Joanna.

10 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

This shit's as old as the hills. Oh hai, first google result: http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original

You seem to be confusing character PoV for author. In fairness, I think the lack of sexual assault within the Night's Watch is highly unrealistic, but frankly Martin's views on this don't matter, since he's not the one in this thread calling Corbray and Euron gay. The issue is the people who are, sitting here in 2017, and doing so on the basis of the gender of victims, which is something that's been done to demonize the LGBT+ community for a long long time.  So stahp.

This whole thread is a crap shack.

Cersei is voicing her opinions, but Arya is just observing facts about the Mountain's men. And yes, the author's views matter because he is the one writing his characters as straight or gay or anything else and make their actions based or not on their orientations. We just interpret. So, in Martinland in general rapists seem to have target base related to their sexual orientations and, if avaiable, attractiveness.

Btw, I didn't call Euron gay.

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8 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

If that ain't romantic I dunno what is. 

Do you think Renly felt the same way?  Don't really recall from the books.

I feel what you're saying through Loras, but I wonder about the person that has more perceived power.  For example, Robert and Cersei.  Cersei had romantic love for Robert (at least at one point, and he killed it) but Robert, though he provided for her in every other way and was probably even kind to her for a time, never quite got there.  Doesn't mean he didn't like sex with her and didn't like the idea (again at first, before he realized Tywin had him by the balls) of Cersei of House Lannister being his wife, she is a beautiful and noble woman after all.

Also curious because I'm a huge fan of Queen Isabella the She-Wolf and fascinated by her relationship with Edward II (who had a "favorite" like Loras).  There is some duality there.  Maybe some would say it's simply bi-sexuality, but there are so many layers and frankly so many feudalistic barriers/limits on what historians of the day would dare write about him, for us to know if Edward was actually a gay man doing his duty as king with Isabella.  Isabella had a side-piece, too, so then I begin to wonder if it's not so much about labels as it is about people in power feeling entitled to satiate any sexual whim they wish, as may have been the case with Renly.

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@Aetta
I think you're definitely reading and projecting a lot onto this relationship. Why wouldn't Renly feel the same way? If Loras felt THIS strongly about him, it couldn't have been one-sided. We'll never know the full details, but we can only assume from what little we know, and what little we know points towards them having a pretty strong bond. Renly always had him at his side; why else would this Tyrell kid be so far away from home and basically living in King's Landing by himself? Renly also immediately made him Lord Commander of his gay Power Ranger squad. Obviously Renly had to play up the airs of being a single bachelor and totally devoted to his new wife, but the people who knew him all knew better -- like Stannis. 

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On 19/03/2017 at 1:31 PM, Quellon said:

It is true. And I wonder why. Is Martin himself gay or is he pro-gay rights? I mean...Oberyn Martell-bisexual. Jon Connington-gay. Lyn Corbray-gay. Daeron Targaryen (Aegon V's son)-presumably gay. All those four are kickass characters, in one way or another or several ways. Renly is also a charming and dashing character that many people like and he's also gay. But I wouldn't call him cool or macho.

Aside from the fact that the premise of your question is flawed, as I don't believe it's true that all of the gay characters are cool or macho, it does seem like a silly question to me. I really don't see where your curiosity on this particular topic is coming from. Unless I am missing something, and you can give me a non prejudicial reason why gay characters shouldn't be portrayed as cool or macho, I think this is a non issue.

Also, I must add that I find it somewhat ignorant of you to assume that the author must be gay himself, in order to write such characters. I mean, I don't assume that GRRM is a pychopathic, torturing, murderer, just because some of his characters are.

On 19/03/2017 at 10:27 PM, Joey Crows said:

Nor his skin color (Salladhor Saan). 

Sorry, just a petty nitpick, that my distain for the show will not allow me to let slide, but it is only in d$d's abomination of an adaption that Salladhor Saan is portrayed as a black man. In the books, he is a Lyseni, whom are fair skinned.

And before anyone mis-interperates, or attempts to twist the meaning in my comment, I do not have a problem with the show portraying Salladhor as a black man, my problem is with any details of the show being confused with the books.

Edited by Darkstream

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17 hours ago, Tianzi said:

They (Lyn and Septon Utt) still prefer boys over girls, that's why they're on the list. No argument that they're predators and deviants, but sexual violence acts they engage in happen to be homosexual as well. Euron is 'anything that moves' kind of rapist. All of them illustrate the point that Martin DOES NOT engage in any kind of 'positive discrimination here', there are good people and monsters there regardless of which way they swing.

That displays a complete lack of understanding of the issue. Heterosexual men can abuse boys (in fact, they are the most likely to do so) and homosexual men can abuse girls. Sexuality simply does not come into it. If a heterosexual man abuses boys that doesn't make him "bi-sexual", it makes him a paedophile. 

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On 20/03/2017 at 0:26 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Along with what some others have said, it is also relevant to the story. 

Loras being gay makes the decision to join the Kingsguard a lot easier and less questioned by the reader. Renly being gay makes it easier to believe that Margaery is still a virgin. Jon Con being gay gives the reader some trust in his intentions for being so devoted to fAegon's cause. 

This. And it doesn't stops there.

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Guys.. Stop calling poor Lyn Corbray a pedophile just cause Littlefinger said he prefers boys. The term "boy" (along with preferring girls) is used numerous times in the story -- not to mention actual life -- without it specifically implying children. Let the guy get his rocks off in peace. 

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