Lewyn Martell

Les Miserables

15 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I have seen some theories that Val and Jon Snow are sister and brother.  It's a variation on the idea of a twin birth at Tower of Joy.  Under this theory Mance Rayder is Rhaegar Targaryen, Dalla is Lyanna and Val and Jon are their children.

I was thinking about this when I thought of Jean Valjean - the principal character in Les Miserables.  Les Miserables also has characters who are brother and sister without being aware of it.  http://lesmiserables.wikia.com/wiki/Gavroche_Thénardier

A great question to ask George RR Martin is whether he thinks that Les Miserables has influenced A Song of Ice and Fire in any way.

 

 

Edited by Lewyn Martell

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I dreamed a dream of spring gone by

When Robert was hot yet Lyanna was cheating

I dreamed that Rhaegar did not survive

I dreamed the Tower of Joy existed

 

Then I was a sweet summer child

And theories were proved and read and tested

There was no Star Wars to be heard 

No secret twins

No hidden identities

 

But the fans they come at night

With their crackpots smart as HBO

As they tear your ships apart

As they turn Rhaegar to Mance

 

And still I dream of Howland Reed

That we can put R and L together

But not all theories can canon be

And we all like our fanfics better

 

I had a dream that Winds would be

Published by now so I'd be reading

So different from what was Feast

Now the wait has killed

The book I dreamed

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3 hours ago, Lewyn Martell said:

I have seen some theories that Val and Jon Snow are sister and brother.  It's a variation on the idea of a twin birth at Tower of Joy.  Under this theory Mance Rayder is Rhaegar Targaryen, Dalla is Lyanna and Val and Jon are their children.

Which makes absolutely zero sense. Whoever wrote this theory is ridiculously wrong - Mance=Rheagar theory has few evidence and huge holes in it, Dalla=Lyanna outright makes no sense whatsoever, nothign points out towrds Val being Dalla's daughter instead of sister...

Welcome to the forum, by the way :cheers:

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Posted (edited)

It does pose an interesting twist of possibility. If there are plenty of theories of Rhaegar being alive, perhaps we can postulate theories that Lyanna could be alive. If so how? First possibility that came to my mind is resurrection by a Red God Priest/Priestess. But there are no references to back this up, only examples of Thoros of Myr resurrecting Beric Dondarrion. Was Marwen the Mage in the vicinity of Lyanna at the birth of her babe. He's learned in many things in this realm (Mirri Maz Durr reveals she learned her arts in the east, alongside a maester from Westeros. When asked (by Ser Jorah) who, she said his name was Marwen, a mage from westeros.

Edited by Weirwood Ghost
Grammar error

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13 minutes ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

It does pose an interesting twist of possibility. If there are plenty of theories of Rhaegar being alive, perhaps we can postulate theories that Lyanna could be alive. If so how? First possibility that came to my mind is resurrection by a Red God Priest/Priestess. But there are no references to back this up, only examples of Thoros of Myr resurrecting Beric Dondarrion. Was Marwen the Mage in the vicinity of Lyanna at the birth of her babe. He's learned in many things in this realm (Mirri Maz Durr reveals she learned her arts in the east, alongside a maester from Westeros. When asked (by Ser Jorah) who, she said his name was Marwen, a mage from westeros.

Lyanna being alive theories somehow ignore the fact that Ned specifically tells us Lyanna died (in fact he was a direct witness), cooked her corpse to separate the meat from bones and then took the bones to WF to bury them.

If there's a believable theory that explains how was Lyanna ressurected after all of this, I've yet to hear of it.

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Posted (edited)

Jean Valjean = Jon Val Jon?

I see what you did there. Other than the pun, I don't think there's anything to it.

Edited by Blackfyre Bastard

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7 hours ago, Lewyn Martell said:

I have seen some theories that Val and Jon Snow are sister and brother.  It's a variation on the idea of a twin birth at Tower of Joy.  Under this theory Mance Rayder is Rhaegar Targaryen, Dalla is Lyanna and Val and Jon are their children.

Let me be of assistance: they're bullshit.

Every once in a while, a fan, bored out of his skull, will wrote several names of characters on pieces of paper, throw them into a hat, pull out two at random and write yet another "X=Y" theory. Or pull out three, and write a "X+Y=Z" theory. Propagating them only encourages this behavior.

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8 hours ago, Lewyn Martell said:

Snip

Are you being serious?

This is a legitimate question. I can't tell whether you are serious or joking.

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14 hours ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

I dreamed a dream of spring gone by

When Robert was hot yet Lyanna was cheating

I dreamed that Rhaegar did not survive

I dreamed the Tower of Joy existed

<snip

Ah this takes me back to the Les Mis condensed medley I was working on. I may have to make some adjustments and do an ASOIAF version.

And now, a ballad about not having anyone in "real life" with whom I can discuss this series:

On my own, with winter winds beside me.
All alone, I dream of spring til morning.
Without Ned, I feel the wolves all shiver.
And when I lose my page I just start over with a whimper.

In the dark, my booklight shines like silver.
And some Freys, are floating in the river.
The alarm clock tells me I should be sleeping
and in another chapter I will stop because I'm weeping.

And I know, it's better than the show;
That I'll find like-minded friends online today,
And once Arya's back in Westeros
Things will change...
For the good, this time.

I love this, but when the book is over.
I must wait for five or six more winters
Just to see where the next installment takes me
and spend time on the forums 'stead of answering the phone!

I love this. I love this. I love this.
But only on my own.

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17 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Lyanna being alive theories somehow ignore the fact that Ned specifically tells us Lyanna died (in fact he was a direct witness), cooked her corpse to separate the meat from bones and then took the bones to WF to bury them.

If there's a believable theory that explains how was Lyanna ressurected after all of this, I've yet to hear of it.

Where does it say he cooked her corpse to obtain her bones? The silent sisters do this. Sure Ned had her buried in the crypts of WF but we don't know what's inside her Lyanna tomb. When it comes to left field theories I only speak in terms of what if, just for fun...and not because I believe theories like this to be the case. It's called stimulating the imagination. I personally don't think she's alive, just throwing suggestions out there and having fun ;)

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So if Rhaegar is Mance and therefore still alive, who did Robert kill at the Trident.  Whoever it was looked like Rhaegar, enough to fool many of his closest companions and even obliged the future by uttering Lyanna's name as he lay dying.  No, file this under theories that only work if everything in the books isn't true.  And if nothing GRRM writes actually happened then why are we bothering to read it.  If this is true then maybe Rhaegar was the gunman on the Grassy Knoll.

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6 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

Where does it say he cooked her corpse to obtain her bones? The silent sisters do this. Sure Ned had her buried in the crypts of WF but we don't know what's inside her Lyanna tomb. When it comes to left field theories I only speak in terms of what if, just for fun...and not because I believe theories like this to be the case. It's called stimulating the imagination. I personally don't think she's alive, just throwing suggestions out there and having fun ;)

It was stated that Ned took Lyanna's bones to bury them in WF. And how else would be separate bones from he body if not by cooking?

And I'm all for discussing various possibilities and having fun while doing so :) , but the possibilities we're discussing have to have at least some possibility and credibility behind them. Theories should be more like hey, I've had this idea, put some thought into it and found it plasuible enough. Let's discuss it and less like wouldn't it be awesome if this and that happens despite all the evidence pointing out towards the contrary. Cos I think it would be cool. Case in point, with regards to all Lyanna=alive theories:

  1. direct witness, Ned, saw her dying and remembers her death multiple times in his thoughts
  2. that same witness buried her bones in WF
  3. even if Lyanna is alive by some hypothetical chance, why would she remain hidden for 15 years? Why would she leave her family in pain thinking she's dead? Why would she allow for her likely son (Jon) to grow up without her? Etc.

If there's any Lyanna=alive theory that has plausible answers to these 3, I'm all ears. Until then, they all remain unfounded speculation directly contrasted by both text and Lyanna's character.

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Dalla/Lyanna didn't take much interest in her long lost son. I think she told him magic was dangerous and called him a kneeler then never talked to him again. So much for mother/son bonding time.

Also I didn't know Val's dark honey blond hair was a Targaryen or Stark trait.

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On 20/3/2017 at 4:51 AM, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

I dreamed a dream of spring gone by

When Robert was hot yet Lyanna was cheating

I dreamed that Rhaegar did not survive

I dreamed the Tower of Joy existed

 

Then I was a sweet summer child

And theories were proved and read and tested

There was no Star Wars to be heard 

No secret twins

No hidden identities

 

But the fans they come at night

With their crackpots smart as HBO

As they tear your ships apart

As they turn Rhaegar to Mance

 

And still I dream of Howland Reed

That we can put R and L together

But not all theories can canon be

And we all like our fanfics better

 

I had a dream that Winds would be

Published by now so I'd be reading

So different from what was Feast

Now the wait has killed

The book I dreamed

Absolutely amazing.

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I take a break from these forums for a few months and wow... have we reached a whole new level of crackpottery or has non-exposure made it seem that much more excessive?

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