Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

[Ygrain]

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

You might find a Youtube channel called "The Order of the Greenhand" interesting.  I do not believe R+L=J.  That theory hinges on the very narrow foundation that require all of the following to be true among other things:

1. Lyanna died from childbirth.

Based on the use of "bed of blood" and "bloody bed", both used solely to refer to childbirth throughout the series. If you have seen a different use, please share it with us.

 

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. The child was born right before Ned and his men arrive.

That is incorrect. The problems related to childbirth do not end with pushing the child out; in fact, they only start. "bed of blood" + lasting fever most likely refer to childbed fever, i.e. postpartum infection, which was a feared killer before the ATBs. That allows for days to weeks between the childbirth and Ned's arrival. And, since the timing of the ToJ events is unclear, it is even possible that Jon was born only after Ned arrived.

 

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

1. The baby lived.

If the baby didn't live, then Ned's silence about the matter makes no sense, and neither does his silence about Jon.

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Lyanna could have slitted her wrist after learning Rhaegar died at the trident.  

She wouldn't be referred to as in "bed of blood".

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Perhaps she had a child months before the Tower of Joy incident and it was that child that Ned took to Winterfell.  

1) He wouldn't be able to claim the baby as younger than Robb.

2) It would require Dany not to be Dany, because Dany was born 9 months after the Sack of KL and Jon was born 8-9 months before her, i.e. around the time of the Sack.

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

That opens up the possibility that she was already pregnant when Rhaegar kidnapped her.  Perhaps she got pregged by Brandon, or even Mance as the M + L = J theorists believe.

 I personally would like to see B+L=J as it brings a parallel to the story.  With a pregnancy that resulted in the death of the mother it is also possible that the child also died. 

And Ned built a statue to his incestuous brother because...?

MLJ theorists would first have to provide some clue that Mance was anywhere near Lyanna in the first place.

Both these theories fail to explain the recurring theme of the blue roses, the likes of which were gifted to Lyanna by none other than Rhaegar. Among other things.

 

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

 I personally would like to see B+L=J as it brings a parallel to the story.

And how does the parallel affect the narrative, what does it bring?

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

 With a pregnancy that resulted in the death of the mother it is also possible that the child also died.  

A possible outcome but there is no causal relationship.

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I agree with the OP, Jon was born a bastard and he remains a bastard.  

Why did GRRM introduce the trait of polygamy to his Targaryanes? It's not like the special looks, the dragons and the incest don't make them exceptional enough.

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

There are numerous good possibilities for his parentage

Ya' know, this is a contradiction. Only one possibility can turn out to be true, which means that the others are plain wrong, and as such are not good possibilities

 

On 18. 5. 2017 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

and most lead to him being a bastard.  

In fact, all of them except RLJ. Which ties to the above - if all the other possibilities are wrong, then it doesn't matter how many of them point to him being a bastard as long as the one true doesn't. If GRRM does intend to play the polygamy card (although its legitimacy would undoubtedly be a bone of contention among the Westerosi), the groundwork for it has been laid.

 

PS That youtube channel might be interesting but definitely not as well-versed in the ASOIAF as they ought to.

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Based on the use of "bed of blood" and "bloody bed", both used solely to refer to childbirth throughout the series. If you have seen a different use, please share it with us.

 

That is incorrect. The problems related to childbirth do not end with pushing the child out; in fact, they only start. "bed of blood" + lasting fever most likely refer to childbed fever, i.e. postpartum infection, which was a feared killer before the ATBs. That allows for days to weeks between the childbirth and Ned's arrival. And, since the timing of the ToJ events is unclear, it is even possible that Jon was born only after Ned arrived.

 

If the baby didn't live, then Ned's silence about the matter makes no sense, and neither does his silence about Jon.

She wouldn't be referred to as in "bed of blood".

1) He wouldn't be able to claim the baby as younger than Robb.

2) It would require Dany not to be Dany, because Dany was born 9 months after the Sack of KL and Jon was born 8-9 months before her, i.e. around the time of the Sack.

And Ned built a statue to his incestuous brother because...?

MLJ theorists would first have to provide some clue that Mance was anywhere near Lyanna in the first place.

Both these theories fail to explain the recurring theme of the blue roses, the likes of which were gifted to Lyanna by none other than Rhaegar. Among other things.

 

And how does the parallel affect the narrative, what does it bring?

A possible outcome but there is no causal relationship.

Why did GRRM introduce the trait of polygamy to his Targaryanes? It's not like the special looks, the dragons and the incest don't make them exceptional enough.

Ya' know, this is a contradiction. Only one possibility can turn out to be true, which means that the others are plain wrong, and as such are not good possibilities

 

In fact, all of them except RLJ. Which ties to the above - if all the other possibilities are wrong, then it doesn't matter how many of them point to him being a bastard as long as the one true doesn't. If GRRM does intend to play the polygamy card (although its legitimacy would undoubtedly be a bone of contention among the Westerosi), the groundwork for it has been laid.

 

PS That youtube channel might be interesting but definitely not as well-versed in the ASOIAF as they ought to.

Agree 100%

[Bowen Marsh]

I don't know why this is still in debate.  The boy is a bastard.  Damsel put the doubts to rest.  I know some people count on Robb's will but he had no right to make his half-brother legitimate because he was no king. 

[IceFire125]

40 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I don't know why this is still in debate.  The boy is a bastard.  Damsel put the doubts to rest.  I know some people count on Robb's will but he had no right to make his half-brother legitimate because he was no king. 

Lords and people make kings.

 

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I don't know why this is still in debate.  The boy is a bastard.  Damsel put the doubts to rest.  I know some people count on Robb's will but he had no right to make his half-brother legitimate because he was no king. 

Your answers are interesting, it's funny to me who hate on R+L=J the books are 20yrs old but there is so much evidence that it is true.  The show which is the cliff notes for the show hinted it.  Like ygrain, said George brought in polygamy with Aegon, Maegar and Daemon attempted pologamy for a reason.  But the great thing about the series is that you can believe what you want until it is disproven.

[KarlDanski]

On 5/19/2017 at 11:20 AM, purple-eyes said:

thank you for your detailed information, Mr. GRRM. 

You're a funny guy, Purple. I like you. That's why I'm going to kill you last.

[GhostNymeria]

On 2017-05-18 at 5:11 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

You might find a Youtube channel called "The Order of the Greenhand" interesting.  I do not believe R+L=J.  That theory hinges on the very narrow foundation that require all of the following to be true among other things:

As opposed to the other parentage theories? And what exactly is the evidence for B+L=J?

[Tai Pan]

On 5/19/2017 at 7:29 PM, IceFire125 said:

Lords and people make kings.

 

Robb and his bannermen lost the rebellion.  They were unsucessful.  Therefore, Robb was not a king.  Whatever he intended no longer holds any legal force.  To reiterate the topic writer's point, Jon was born a bastard and he remains a bastard.  

[IceFire125]

14 minutes ago, Ian Dunross said:

Robb and his bannermen lost the rebellion.  They were unsucessful.  Therefore, Robb was not a king.  Whatever he intended no longer holds any legal force.  To reiterate the topic writer's point, Jon was born a bastard and he remains a bastard.  

You mean Joffrey, and now Tommen were born bastards and remain bastards.  Oh wait! Are they? how are they then kings? unless Lords and People make them kings.

 

[SFDanny]

39 minutes ago, Ian Dunross said:

Robb and his bannermen lost the rebellion.  They were unsucessful.  Therefore, Robb was not a king.  Whatever he intended no longer holds any legal force.  To reiterate the topic writer's point, Jon was born a bastard and he remains a bastard.  

I'm sure that is the view shared by Stannis and Cersei. It may not be the view of many of the lords of the North. Especially those who signed Robb's will.

Of course, that leaves out the question of whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna wed, and Jon was born the legitimate son of the two.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I'm sure that is the view shared by Stannis and Cersei. It may not be the view of many of the lords of the North. Especially those who signed Robb's will.

Of course, that leaves out the question of whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna wed, and Jon was born the legitimate son of the two.

Rhaegar and Lyanna could not marry.  That would be polygamy and the children would be bastards.  Those who signed Robb's will aren't going to be too keen on Jon after they learn he betrayed the night watch and married Alys to a wildling man.  A wildling is now lord over her lands.  That decision won't be popular anywhere in the north.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Green-Lipped Mussel said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna could not marry.  That would be polygamy and the children would be bastards.  Those who signed Robb's will aren't going to be too keen on Jon after they learn he betrayed the night watch and married Alys to a wildling man.  A wildling is now lord over her lands.  That decision won't be popular anywhere in the north.

So which one was a bastard, Maegor or Aenys?

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Green-Lipped Mussel said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna could not marry.  That would be polygamy and the children would be bastards. 

It certainly would be polygamy, just like Aegon and his sister's two marriages was polygamy. Neither was illegal, nor were King Aenys or Maegor considered bastards. Not that the Faith wouldn't have liked to force a change, at that time, and make the Targaryens give up the practice of polygamy and what they considered incest, but the Targaryens never allowed the Faith to set the custom for their marriages. In fact, Maegor killed thousands who tried, and Jaehaerys forced the Faith to abandon its religious war against the monarchy, and its militant orders, and submit to royal justice. In short, the Targaryens did what they wanted when it came to their own customs, and the rest of Westeros had to live with their different ways.

oops, I see Ygrain beat me to the point.

 

4 hours ago, Green-Lipped Mussel said:

Those who signed Robb's will aren't going to be too keen on Jon after they learn he betrayed the night watch and married Alys to a wildling man.  A wildling is now lord over her lands.  That decision won't be popular anywhere in the north.

You think wildings fighting side by side to defeat Roose and Ramsay, and the Freys, might change some of that? Outside of Bowen Marsh and a few of his conspirators do you really think there is strong support for assassination of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? It's not how I read it.

[WeKnowNothing]

7 hours ago, Green-Lipped Mussel said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna could not marry.  That would be polygamy and the children would be bastards. 

Polygamy is one of the main Targearyen customs (apart from incest) and although it was frowned upon, there was no law to say polygamy is not allowed. It's like the views on Targearyen incest, it may be frowned upon, but there is no law to say it can't happen. They married and because of this, Jon is legitimate. Now, I know people argue that Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell, and faith wouldn't have allowed it. But really, these can be overturned for him. the faith during Aerys's reign (and before this) was really weak, there's a reason why they couldn't prevent the sibling marriages of Jaehearys/Shaera and their children Aerys/Rhaella. If they were not strong enough to oppose this Targearyen custom, why would they even want to argue about if Rhaegar took a second wife (which was another of their customs).

If a Targearyen King or the heir to the throne doesn't have sons to continue the line, it would be bad news for them. And Rhaegar only had one son, which would be bad for him because the odd are always high that he may fall ill and die in childhood (like so many of Aerys's children). Traditionally and historically, it is always best to have a heir and a spare or two, just in case of any early deaths. So Targearyen custom would allow for him to take a second wife, as his first wife would die if she had a third pregnancy.

GRRM has also been asked if Targearyens after Maegor the Cruel took any second wives. GRRM said yes, they were, but he's need to check - or just 'make them up.'

 

[Wolfgirly]

No I don't think he was born a bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna most probably got married and that doesn't make him a bastard. I conclude (without evidence, just my own theory) that he divorced from Elia. Because of the children they remained at the castle, but the mad king kept Elia and the children in the red keep.

[Lord Varys]

Kings could have multiple wives even back in the days of the First Men. But normal people could not. And even during the Targaryen days only Targaryen kings could have multiple wives at the same time, not princes. Prince Maegor tried but the Faith condemned that marriage and King Aenys sent him into exile, taking even Dragonstone from him in the process. 

Rhaegar never was a king. If he took a second wife he would have spit not only in the face of his lady wife, Princess Elia of Dorne, but also in the face of the Seven themselves because the very marriage vow he spoke in the Great Sept of Baelor would have forbidden him to take a second wife while Elia was still alive.

And since he was never king he could never have forced the people of Westeros to accept his actions and recognize Lyanna as his second wife.

That doesn't mean he couldn't have wanted to try. But if he did we have to wait and see whether he actually married Lyanna or not.

[Prof. Cecily]

^This.

 

32 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

No I don't think he was born a bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna most probably got married and that doesn't make him a bastard. I conclude (without evidence, just my own theory) that he divorced from Elia. Because of the children they remained at the castle, but the mad king kept Elia and the children in the red keep.

I'm no expert on the divorce laws in Westeros and I have no idea how the Martells would have reacted to such an event. 

Divorce, annulment, or murder. I don't know how the Rhaegar-Elia matrimony ended.

And how I want the up-coming books to satisfy my curiosity on the subject!

[300 H&H Magnum]

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So which one was a bastard, Maegor or Aenys?

You might want to consider the sequence of events.  Aegon the Conqueror married his wives BEFORE they became rulers of Westeros.  In other words, they were already married when they took office.  Polygamy became illegal from that day forward and children of such relationships are bastards.

[SFDanny]

51 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

You might want to consider the sequence of events.  Aegon the Conqueror married his wives BEFORE they became rulers of Westeros.  In other words, they were already married when they took office.  Polygamy became illegal from that day forward and children of such relationships are bastards.

Where is the evidence this occurred? Certainly no one told Aegon's sons that they couldn't continue the Targaryen practices. When they did so, the Faith thought they could intervene and stop the marriages, but the Faith lost. They lost the war and lost the peace.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

You might want to consider the sequence of events.  Aegon the Conqueror married his wives BEFORE they became rulers of Westeros.  In other words, they were already married when they took office.  Polygamy became illegal from that day forward and children of such relationships are bastards.

And? The lack of evidence aside, Aegon's children were born after the conquest, so by your own logic, their status would be dubious. And while people were certainly pissed with Maegor, he still  managed polygamous marriages even after that day. Lastly, GRRM's own words: There was and IS precedent. Acceptance of a polygamous marriage would be a different thing but it is incorrect to claim that a polygamous Targaryen marriage would be illegal.