Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

[YOVMO]

7 hours ago, devilish said:

. Whose better to do the Brynden Tully role then Jon Stark?

 

There is a very big difference between Jon Stark leading the northern forces as a supreme battle commander and him being given the hereditary title King in the North or even Lord of Winterfell before a true born stark however. Plus, with Jon's schtick in general I believe he would very quckly step aside and see Bran of Rickon take that title. That said, I have no doubt you are right that in this case Jon would play an instrumental role in leading the armies of the north. But wearing a crown before Ned's sons I don't see.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

There is a very big difference between Jon Stark leading the northern forces as a supreme battle commander and him being given the hereditary title King in the North or even Lord of Winterfell before a true born stark however. Plus, with Jon's schtick in general I believe he would very quckly step aside and see Bran of Rickon take that title. That said, I have no doubt you are right that in this case Jon would play an instrumental role in leading the armies of the north. But wearing a crown before Ned's sons I don't see.

It pretty much depend on what happens to Bran and Rickon. If Bran dies and Rickon survives then Jon Stark's chances of being Warden of the North are very limited. He might become Lord Protector of the North with the Dreadfort under his name (to give him some clout) up until the boy grow old enough to lead his own men.

If Bran lives and Rickon dies. Then things can get slightly messy. Bran can't lead men to battle, he's disabled (god knows if he can have children) and he had abandoned the North in its worst time (ok he was a boy but still). If Jon is pared with Sansa/Arya and given the Dreadfort, well, he might get the edge over him especially if Aunt Danny oversized birdies ends up saving the day from the Whitewalkers

If both dies then its pretty much straightforward.

 

[YOVMO]

46 minutes ago, devilish said:

It pretty much depend on what happens to Bran and Rickon. If Bran dies and Rickon survives then Jon Stark's chances of being Warden of the North are very limited. He might become Lord Protector of the North with the Dreadfort under his name (to give him some clout) up until the boy grow old enough to lead his own men.

If Bran lives and Rickon dies. Then things can get slightly messy. Bran can't lead men to battle, he's disabled (god knows if he can have children) and he had abandoned the North in its worst time (ok he was a boy but still). If Jon is pared with Sansa/Arya and given the Dreadfort, well, he might get the edge over him especially if Aunt Danny oversized birdies ends up saving the day from the Whitewalkers

If both dies then its pretty much straightforward.

 

Yeah, this all makes sense to me for sure. Fortunately, I am in camp apocalypto and thing they will all be dead in the end but everything you say here seems right. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

It pretty much depend on what happens to Bran and Rickon. If Bran dies and Rickon survives then Jon Stark's chances of being Warden of the North are very limited. He might become Lord Protector of the North with the Dreadfort under his name (to give him some clout) up until the boy grow old enough to lead his own men.

If Bran lives and Rickon dies. Then things can get slightly messy. Bran can't lead men to battle, he's disabled (god knows if he can have children) and he had abandoned the North in its worst time (ok he was a boy but still). If Jon is pared with Sansa/Arya and given the Dreadfort, well, he might get the edge over him especially if Aunt Danny oversized birdies ends up saving the day from the Whitewalkers

If both dies then its pretty much straightforward.

 

It's all about timing. George is on record as saying that a number of people will sit on the Iron Throne before the end. There is no reason why the same could not apply to the King of Winter crown. But it depends on timing.

A hypothetical order of events is:

1. Jon is resurrected, Robb's will is revealed and Jon becomes King in the North.

2. Rickon returns and Jon steps aside to become his regent.

3. Jon's parentage is revealed and Jon becomes King on the Iron Throne.

A slight variation on that, based purely on timing, is:

1. Jon is resurrected.

2. Rickon returns and is crowned King of Winter

3. Jon becomes his regent to lead his armies (in this case Robb's will plays no significant role in the story again)

4. Jon's parentage is revealed and he becomes King on the Iron Throne

A third option is:

1. Jon is resurrected, Robb's will is revealed and Jon becomes King in the North

2. Rickon returns, but due to the imminent threat Jon decides to retain his title, in order to lead his people against the Others. However, in line with his honorable nature, he makes Rickon his heir and undertakes to abdicate once the War for the Dawn is over.

3. Jon's true parentage is revealed and he becomes King on the Iron Throne.

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It's all about timing. George is on record as saying that a number of people will sit on the Iron Throne before the end. There is no reason why the same could not apply to the King of Winter crown. But it depends on timing.

A hypothetical order of events is:

1. Jon is resurrected, Robb's will is revealed and Jon becomes King in the North.

2. Rickon returns and Jon steps aside to become his regent.

3. Jon's parentage is revealed and Jon becomes King on the Iron Throne.

That is not going to work. Kings don't just step down all that easily. Crowns are poison, especially in this world, but in our world, too. In a medieval setting the wolves will devour you when you abdicate.

If Jon was made King in the North he would have to die as King in the North (or get out of the whole thing by marrying Daenerys). And up until that point the other Stark children would get nothing.

In light of the convoluted mess I expect Rickon to come into play before Jon has put himself back together. He is set up to become Stannis' Stark pawn. After all, we have Davos looking for him, don't we? Whether he is going to die I don't know. I hope not. But depending where Sansa is - and what powers she has - she is the one who has the better shot at the North after Rickon is gone (if he goes). 

And even if it wasn't Stannis the man behind a Lord Rickon would most likely be a Manderly. The whole thing is Lord Wyman's scheme, and if he were to die his heir and successor Wylis would continue it, supported by his daughters and the Manderly cousin heading the guard. 

There is not necessarily a place for Jon there, especially not after his death and resurrection but also not because of the Night's Watch thing. Once things deteriorate further and when everybody in the North is really looking to the Wall and once Stannis is gone Jon could end up in some sort of universally accepted leadership position. But it should be a ragged band of desperate people he rules over then, not some sort of united kingdom.

Robb's will should mean nothing compared to raw power. If Sansa came to Winterfell with a Vale army she would rule the North afterwards, never mind Robb's will. And she would also more or less decide who her regent or protector would be. After all, technically she is still a minor.

And I really think a will in favor of the zombie guy will do them much good. I mean, I also can see Catelyn retaking Riverrun but I don't think she is going to grow old and die as a the Ruling Lady of Riverrun, right? And not just because she is a nut case hellbent on revenge but also because it would be wrong to have a zombie ruler. People will notice and don't like the idea to serve such a person. And the same should go for Jon. Especially if he looks the part. It may be a miracle that he lives but if he doesn't look (and smell) like Jesus people are not going to like him. Especially once they start to believe in the Others and wights. Technically they would be so different, would they?

8 hours ago, devilish said:

If Bran lives and Rickon dies. Then things can get slightly messy. Bran can't lead men to battle, he's disabled (god knows if he can have children) and he had abandoned the North in its worst time (ok he was a boy but still). If Jon is pared with Sansa/Arya and given the Dreadfort, well, he might get the edge over him especially if Aunt Danny oversized birdies ends up saving the day from the Whitewalkers

It is established in the books that Bran cannot have children. And that he'll never become a lord was clear from the start. The Northmen follow strong leaders, not cripples. The Greatjon nearly killed Robb, and quite a few Northmen made it very clear that they despise Bran for what he is.

Not to mention that he should have no intention to ever want to be the Lord of Winterfell or rule anything. He has better things to do. He can see and feel everything he could ever want without ever leaving that cave again. And he could have the power of a god, and perhaps even be worshiped as such. That should be much more alluring than being carried around in some castle, being pitied and despised for your physical weakness by the men around you.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 8/9/2017 at 5:50 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

It's all about timing. George is on record as saying that a number of people will sit on the Iron Throne before the end. There is no reason why the same could not apply to the King of Winter crown. But it depends on timing.

A hypothetical order of events is:

1. Jon is resurrected, Robb's will is revealed and Jon becomes King in the North.

2. Rickon returns and Jon steps aside to become his regent.

3. Jon's parentage is revealed and Jon becomes King on the Iron Throne.

A slight variation on that, based purely on timing, is:

1. Jon is resurrected.

2. Rickon returns and is crowned King of Winter

3. Jon becomes his regent to lead his armies (in this case Robb's will plays no significant role in the story again)

4. Jon's parentage is revealed and he becomes King on the Iron Throne

A third option is:

1. Jon is resurrected, Robb's will is revealed and Jon becomes King in the North

2. Rickon returns, but due to the imminent threat Jon decides to retain his title, in order to lead his people against the Others. However, in line with his honorable nature, he makes Rickon his heir and undertakes to abdicate once the War for the Dawn is over.

3. Jon's true parentage is revealed and he becomes King on the Iron Throne.

 

I would hate the story if all of there events were to come to pass.   I really want Jon to stay dead.

[TMIFairy]

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I would hate the story if all of there events were to come to pass.   I really want Jon to stay dead.

That Which Is Dead May Never Die As It Stays Dead

[unitron]

On 8/9/2017 at 8:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

...

It is established in the books that Bran cannot have children. ..

 

I dunno, once they get going good making him at least part tree, he should be able to get morning wood again.

 

; - )

[Lord Varys]

57 minutes ago, unitron said:

 

I dunno, once they get going good making him at least part tree, he should be able to get morning wood again.

 

; - )

Well, he might even bear some fruit if you water him every day. But just take care that they are not going to taste sweet. That would be very bad, according to some people.

[Free Northman Reborn]

On 2017/08/10 at 2:53 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is not going to work. Kings don't just step down all that easily. Crowns are poison, especially in this world, but in our world, too. In a medieval setting the wolves will devour you when you abdicate.

If Jon was made King in the North he would have to die as King in the North (or get out of the whole thing by marrying Daenerys). And up until that point the other Stark children would get nothing.

In light of the convoluted mess I expect Rickon to come into play before Jon has put himself back together. He is set up to become Stannis' Stark pawn. After all, we have Davos looking for him, don't we? Whether he is going to die I don't know. I hope not. But depending where Sansa is - and what powers she has - she is the one who has the better shot at the North after Rickon is gone (if he goes). 

And even if it wasn't Stannis the man behind a Lord Rickon would most likely be a Manderly. The whole thing is Lord Wyman's scheme, and if he were to die his heir and successor Wylis would continue it, supported by his daughters and the Manderly cousin heading the guard. 

There is not necessarily a place for Jon there, especially not after his death and resurrection but also not because of the Night's Watch thing. Once things deteriorate further and when everybody in the North is really looking to the Wall and once Stannis is gone Jon could end up in some sort of universally accepted leadership position. But it should be a ragged band of desperate people he rules over then, not some sort of united kingdom.

Robb's will should mean nothing compared to raw power. If Sansa came to Winterfell with a Vale army she would rule the North afterwards, never mind Robb's will. And she would also more or less decide who her regent or protector would be. After all, technically she is still a minor.

And I really think a will in favor of the zombie guy will do them much good. I mean, I also can see Catelyn retaking Riverrun but I don't think she is going to grow old and die as a the Ruling Lady of Riverrun, right? And not just because she is a nut case hellbent on revenge but also because it would be wrong to have a zombie ruler. People will notice and don't like the idea to serve such a person. And the same should go for Jon. Especially if he looks the part. It may be a miracle that he lives but if he doesn't look (and smell) like Jesus people are not going to like him. Especially once they start to believe in the Others and wights. Technically they would be so different, would they?

My personal view is that Jon will act as Rickon's regent, and defacto ruler of the North. I think with Rickon, Jon can assume power as his regent in a way that would not have been plausible if Sansa replaces Rickon in the story. I don't think Sansa is heading North to fight the Boltons. And ultimately, I don't think George is wiping out the Starks in the male line. So Rickon will remain in play in the North beyond the end of the series.

As for Jon. He isn't going to be a wight. He is going to be a breathing human with a heartbeat, maybe with some knife scars on his back and stomach. And with some mental scars that will stay with him. He remains in play to be King on the Iron Throne one day. And he can't play that role if he is undead.

 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

My personal view is that Jon will act as Rickon's regent, and defacto ruler of the North. I think with Rickon, Jon can assume power as his regent in a way that would not have been plausible if Sansa replaces Rickon in the story. I don't think Sansa is heading North to fight the Boltons. And ultimately, I don't think George is wiping out the Starks in the male line. So Rickon will remain in play in the North beyond the end of the series.

Why should anyone ask Jon to be the regent for Rickon? That's not a position you hand to a man who could use the power coming with it to usurp the throne/lordship - which a Stark bastard easily could. 

Such an office would go to one of the people who are involved in this Stark restoration plot - and those are Manderlys, Robett Glover, Davos, and perhaps even other people in White Harbor, but not Jon Snow.

The Northmen are not going to give such an office to a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. The very thought of that is ridiculous. That would go against everything they believe in and stand for. Against every tradition that's upheld in the North.

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Jon. He isn't going to be a wight. He is going to be a breathing human with a heartbeat, maybe with some knife scars on his back and stomach. And with some mental scars that will stay with him. He remains in play to be King on the Iron Throne one day. And he can't play that role if he is undead.

That is not what George said recently. He himself connected Beric-Catelyn to Jon's resurrection and referred to them as foreshadowing for Jon's return. He is not going to get a normal breathing body. It will be the same kind of body they have. His spirit might be less damaged than theirs because it was 'saved' in Ghost but his body is not going to get off the hook.

And why should it? If it did then there would be no point to the entire death-and-resurrection plot. That's going to be play an important role in his story, and not in this fairy-tale dream quest setting you seem to want to read but rather to set him up as the ultimate hero and sacrifice. He is going to play the crucial role in defeating the Others. And that's going to be his final death. There is no way around that. Not after he was killed. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why should anyone ask Jon to be the regent for Rickon? That's not a position you hand to a man who could use the power coming with it to usurp the throne/lordship - which a Stark bastard easily could. 

Such an office would go to one of the people who are involved in this Stark restoration plot - and those are Manderlys, Robett Glover, Davos, and perhaps even other people in White Harbor, but not Jon Snow.

The Northmen are not going to give such an office to a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. The very thought of that is ridiculous. That would go against everything they believe in and stand for. Against every tradition that's upheld in the North.

That is not what George said recently. He himself connected Beric-Catelyn to Jon's resurrection and referred to them as foreshadowing for Jon's return. He is not going to get a normal breathing body. It will be the same kind of body they have. His spirit might be less damaged than theirs because it was 'saved' in Ghost but his body is not going to get off the hook.

And why should it? If it did then there would be no point to the entire death-and-resurrection plot. That's going to be play an important role in his story, and not in this fairy-tale dream quest setting you seem to want to read but rather to set him up as the ultimate hero and sacrifice. He is going to play the crucial role in defeating the Others. And that's going to be his final death. There is no way around that. Not after he was killed. 

Well I disagree.

We don't know how Jon's resurrection is going to play out, or how the magic works. We see that so called "Fire Wights" still seem to breathe. Beric was hanged to death in one of his deaths, after all. We see that their blood does not pool in their extremities like in the case of Coldhands.

And by contrast, Ice Wights have different characteristics. We also see that in Victarrion's case, the magic is used to heal certain body parts only. And then we have Drogo's healing by blood magic, where his body is completely restored, but his spirit has suffered severely. Something Jon can escape by residing in Ghost for a while.

Then we have the magic of the Wall, with its power to preserve perhaps playing a role.

And we also have the thus far unprecedented possibility that Jon will be healed/resurrected with a combination of Ice and Fire magic. With results that are utterly unknown.

If some royal sacrifices are thrown into the mix, with death paying for life and two kings waking a dragon and all that good stuff, well, how can anyone claim that they know how he is going to turn out?

My claim that he will be a living, breathing human rather than a wight is based on his plot arc, and the role I believe he has to play going forward. As is yours, with the very different plot arc you have in mind for Jon.

[chrisdaw]

Doubt GRRM will go with annulment, just regular polygamy.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Doubt GRRM will go with annulment, just regular polygamy.

Who said anything about an annulment?

[Aeron_Damphair]

Edited: show spoiler, sorry

[chrisdaw]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Who said anything about an annulment?

Me. You quoted it.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, chrisdaw said:

Me. You quoted it.

Yes, I am aware I quoted you. I asked why were you saying there won't be an annulment. B/c after reading your post I went back to the last couple of pages and didn't see (maybe I missed it?) anything about an annulment, so I was wondering why you'd brought it up.

[chrisdaw]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, I am aware I quoted you. I asked why were you saying there won't be an annulment. B/c after reading your post I went back to the last couple of pages and didn't see (maybe I missed it?) anything about an annulment, so I was wondering why you'd brought it up.

Go all the way back to the topic title.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Go all the way back to the topic title.

I did read the OP and most of the posts, but clearly I should read it again. 

[Davjos]

I guess D&D should have read ALL of this great thread.