Damsel in Distress

Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

472 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I looked at every reasonable scenario and read many opinions from many forums.  Here are those scenarios.

  • Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible that Brandon married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something that doesn't make sense but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Edited by Damsel in Distress

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25 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I looked at every reasonable scenario and read many opinions from many forums.  Here are those scenarios.

  • Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible that Brandon married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something that doesn't make sense but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

True so true .

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Incest is not a legal practice, either, yet the Targaryens did it.  If polygamy could be done, then only and solely by the Targaryens, who considered themselves above the laws of gods and men, so the other characters you are listing don't constitute for an argument and their second marriages would be unacceptable, just as the twincest is unacceptable.

As for the Targ polygamy: Maegor married post-conquest. Daemon and Rhaenyra wanted to marry post-conquest. Ask yourself: why introduce the concept of polygamy at all, if it's not to be used in any plot-significant way?

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for the Targ polygamy: Maegor married post-conquest. Daemon and Rhaenyra wanted to marry post-conquest. Ask yourself: why introduce the concept of polygamy at all, if it's not to be used in any plot-significant way?

To expand the world-building and lore of Westeros and Martinverse in general? To give background of Targaryens and show how their culture clashed with Westerosi? To show power struggles between Faith and Targs, shifts in their power and the fact that Targs practiced polygamy when they thought they could get away with it (and stopped when it became non-opportune) etc.

The fact that we had Targ cases of polygamy simply means that GRRM can use it again, not that he has to or even that he should. In fact - there are plenty of other weird/cool stuff mentioned in ASOIAF lore that nobody argues we'll ever see again (on the basis of the same logic you're using). Will we ever see Rhyonar and their water magic? Or Summer Islanders playing a big part in the Story? Or reemergence of Houses Greystark, Reyne or Hoare? Or another Long Night that will last a generation? Or a series of smallfolk-benefiting reforms that Egg planned? Or a Trial by Seven (very debatable)? History repeats itself, aye, but rarely so literally.

For the record, I do think it's likely that R+L indeed married before their deaths, I just don't agree with the reasoning you provided.

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4 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

While i don't believe that Jon will ever be king of Westeros (unless the situation requires it), he will not remain a bastard till the end. GRRM loves a underdog story, and while he prides himself with crushing the hopes and dreams of fans, if you look at the true underdogs (main characters in the series) they are all doing quite well for themselves, and are close to getting what they always dreamt off.

Jon could easily end up as a Stark, because of two reasons: either the Northern lords won't care ( highly possible)  that he is a bastard, and name him one either way, Dany or Stannis is going to legitimise him in the end, because the situation will require for it.

Rules are meant to be broken, and it simply won't matter that technically he is not eligible to become a Stark/ Targaryan.

 

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Even if he's a bastard its within King Aegon or Queen Danny to legitimise him. They lack allies and a warden of the North with Targ blood in him will be handy

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4 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I looked at every reasonable scenario and read many opinions from many forums.  Here are those scenarios.

  • Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible that Brandon married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something that doesn't make sense but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Yeah, I think you are right. But that doesn't mean that there is no way for Jon to become king in the north or warden. There's just no straight forward way.

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I like the theory that Ned and Ashara Dayne were deeply in love, betrothed and set to marry before the events that preceded Robert's Rebellion occurred. Then when Ned went to Riverrun Hoster Tully demanded that he marry the daughter his older brother Brandon was previously betrothed to before he got himself killed on a fool's mission. Eddard being who he is said that he couldn't because he was already betrothed to Ashara Dayne. Hoster Tully then said if Ned didn't marry Catelyn he wouldn't support the rebels in the war. With his best friend Robert waiting for him and his armies Ned reluctantly agreed to marry Catelyn having no choice. I believe Catelyn was there for the hole negotiation and never spoke up to say she didn't want to marry a man that was already betrothed to a women he loved. I think Ned felt that if Catelyn had spoke out against the idea of the marriage after her father demanded it The Tully's still would have supported the rebels because of the marriage between Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. Also I think Ned was offended Catelyn would even consider a marriage to him after her betrothed, his brother, had just died. Needless to say Eddard was pissed at both Hoster and Catelyn but did his duty in order to save the lives of his friends and himself and to avenge his family.

Then Ned killed his beloved Ashara's brother to save Lyanna only to hear her confess she chose to run off with Rhaegar before she died giving birth to a malformed stillborn with wings. Then Ned goes to Starfall to return Dawn and inform Ashara he not only killed her brother but he also can't marry her now that he's already married the Tully girl. Ashara told him he broke her heart and he was an evil dishonorable man then of course jumped to her certain doom.

Finally on the last leg of his journey home from all the hell he had been through he returned Willam Dustin's horse to Barbrey because it was such a majestic steed. Barbrey scolded him for not bringing her husbands bones back instead and probably said something about him being half the man Brandon was and that he should have died instead. At this point poor Eddard Stark is depressed, mentally exhausted and enraged that he has had to suffer the consequences off all his sibling's and friend's poor choices and lies. He questions his own honor and the honor of all men and whether or not he can do something ANYTHING to balance the scales of all the destruction he has come to witness in the past year. Finally when he arrives at a village near Winter Town to water his horse and prepare for his return to Winterfell. He finds a dying mother and her infant son, who's father died fighting for the Starks in what Ned has come to realize was a pointless war. Guilt ridden that this babe will have no one once his mother dies and may die itself, in his befuddled state of mind he decides that adopting this babe just may be one thing that can help redeem him in the eyes of the Gods. He's also pretty pissed off at Catelyn and the Tullys and blames them for Ashara's death. So he claims the child as his bastard and brings it to Winterfell. He won't let Catelyn's pride and ego go unchecked and let the North think the Tully's outmaneuvered him, so this child will prove that no Southern House can use him as a pawn to push around without consequence. This is not my theory, though I added on to it. Jon's not a bastard just some lowborn son of two Northern smallfolk. While I'm 90% on R+L=J the other 10% of me believes this to be the only other possibility for Jon's parentage.

 

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5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I looked at every reasonable scenario and read many opinions from many forums.  Here are those scenarios.

First of all the only reasonable scenario by this point is Rhaegar and Lyanna. Unless we are talking theoretical thought experiments.

On topic:

Yes Jon is a bastard (unless the theory about the secret marriage is true, but I dunno about that)

What people suggest by saying he might, possibly, perhaps become a Targaryen and/or King of something is simply considering the three factors 1) that the Targaryens are as good as extinct 2) that it's likely that the throne will pass from the Baratheons to somebody else by right of conquest, in which rules are not as important 3) that Westeros is going to face world altering cataclysms, something that tends to negate rules of succession as well.

Also consider that whoever sits at the IT might decide to legitimize Jon in some way.

Just look at the execution of the Romanov family. The Russian monarchy at that point was very strict and very clear that the throne cannot be passed down through the female line or be inherited by a woman. Theoretically this would have meant they only have to execute the zar and his son and be done with it. However since this was a period of social upheaval the danger of royalists gathering around one of the daughters or a hypothetical son of said daughters was very real. 

There's always succession laws and what reality makes of it.

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“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

OK. So, Jon was born a bastard. The finest knights of the Kingsguard left the actual, well, kingsguarding, to Darry, "a good man and true", but "not of the Kingsguard". They themselves, however, are stuck taking care of dead prince's paramour and a bastard of no consequence, and at the same time consider that duty a fulfillment of their Kingsguard vows and a source of enormous pride. Nope, I don't think so.

(Mind you, I actually don't care if Jon's a bastard or not. Heck, I don't even care much about who his parents were, TBH. But what's written is written, no way around it).

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2 hours ago, Nocturne said:

While i don't believe that Jon will ever be king of Westeros (unless the situation requires it), he will not remain a bastard till the end. GRRM loves a underdog story, and while he prides himself with crushing the hopes and dreams of fans, if you look at the true underdogs (main characters in the series) they are all doing quite well for themselves, and are close to getting what they always dreamt off.

Jon could easily end up as a Stark, because of two reasons: either the Northern lords won't care ( highly possible)  that he is a bastard, and name him one either way, Dany or Stannis is going to legitimise him in the end, because the situation will require for it.

Rules are meant to be broken, and it simply won't matter that technically he is not eligible to become a Stark/ Targaryan.

 

Or Robb's Will legitimises Jon. Of course this would only apply to the Kingship of the North. I also think he will become King in the North but not King on the Iron Throne.

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You don't hang polygamy on the wall unless you intend on using it. 

There are several clues that Rhaegar & Lyanna were married. 

1: the fact Elia was too ill to carry a third child, yet Rhaegar felt a third was vital. 

This one is backed up by real world war of the roses stuff, which we know GRRM has in part used as inspiration. When Anne Neville became too unwell to hope to ever give Richard III the heir he desperately needed it is believed he began seeking a new wife and was advised to take his niece Elizabeth of York to wife. Now irl Polygamy was not a possibility in England at that time, and so he would have set Anne aside. As they say. But in the fantasy world of Wsteros where Polygamy is a thing. It is an easy stretch for an author to use it in this scenario. 

2: the fact that they went into hiding. 

In past times a couple in love who wished to wed, but whose families would not have consented to it would elope. Gretna Green exists for this exact reason as it was the first place past the border (Scotlands marriage laws being different to Englands) where an eloping couple could get wed. It was common practice in these circumstances for the couple to remain in hiding until the bride was obviously and undeniably with child. So as to prevent either parties parents claiming non-consummation and seeking annulment.  

3: We see GRRM actually using elopment twice in relation to Targaryen marriages in the history. First with Rhaenyra and Daemon, who married in secret on DS and then with Jaehaerys & Shaera. Who again eloped, and declared they had indeed consummated the marriage and Egg was left in the awkward position of allowing it or leaving his daughter in disgrace. 

4: No one has ever declared any polygamous marriages in Westeros illegal. From the wall and beyond in fact, down to Dorne never has a polygamous marriage been refuted. Maegor's brides are ALL described as his legitimate wives in the history books and the Seven declaring the marriages illegitimate simply never happened. 

5: Daemon doesn't seem to think his marriage to Rhea Royce is an obstacle to marrying Rhaenyra, though her father does say you have a wife in response to Daemon's request. 

6: Jorah absolutely does suggest Polyandry to Daenerys, and neither if them mention it's supposed illegality during that conversation. In fact he seems to think it's totally plausible. Also realistically Dany has already left herself in a position where she will be left with no option but to engage in it. As if she leaves Essos without Hizdhar being known to be dead she has no other choice.  she will very much need to take a husband in Westeros.  We don't ever encounter her considering the bind she places herself in when she marries him. So it stands to reason that she doesn't feel it is the bind it would be if he can be her only husband.

 

 

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Oh, and one more thing. Suppose, by some miraculous chance, that everything went out splendidly - R+L married, had a son, but Aerys didn't burn Rickard and Brandon, so no civil war happened etc. What exactly what Rhaegar's plan wrt Lyanna, Jon, Elia and her kids, but also Starks, Martells, Aerys and others. Come to court and publicly proclaim he took daughter of a LP as second wife? Keep Lyanna and Jon hidden somewhere? Send her back to WF leaving her disgraced? Whatever options I list, one seems worse than the other.

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This question can be reduced to the question whether the children of a second (or third, fourth, etc.) wife in a monogamous society where only kings ever succeeded in having more than one wife (even back in the First Men days, as far as we know) would ever be considered legitimate by the people and authorities of Westeros.

I think there are more than a few hints that this wouldn't be the case. Maegor's second (and later marriages) were objected and dismissed by a majority of the Realm, King Aenys I and the Faith and High Septon included. The idea that a child of Alys Harroway would have been considered a royal prince(ss) of legitimate birth and not a bastard while Aenys I was still king is essentially zero. And Maegor continued to face rebellions throughout his reign due to the fact that he was a polygamist. If the man had had any offspring by some of his wives those most likely would have been seen as bastards by his enemies. And considering that his enemies won and deposed him it is pretty clear how this would have turned out.

Jon Snow has to be accepted into the Targaryen family and be declared as a Targaryen prince (or legitimized as such). Else, nobody is going to care about whatever claims there are about his parentage. Even if all the pretenders to the Iron Throne dropped dead there would still be people with more raw power to just claim the Iron Throne by force without having any blood claim of any sort. Nobody would offer the throne to Ned Stark's bastard.

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7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I looked at every reasonable scenario and read many opinions from many forums.  Here are those scenarios.

  • Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible that Brandon married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something that doesn't make sense but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Not in general, but Rhaegar only had one son and the standard in medieval times (and even hundreds of years later) was to have the heir and the spare. Elia couldn't have any more children so it is entirely possible that Rhaegar could have gotten a dispensation from the High Septon to take a second wife. It's becomes even more possible if the Faith of the Seven believes that the Others are coming and a Targaryen prince must lead mankind to defeat them. The dragon has three heads...there must be one more.

However, unless or until we learn about such a dispensation we must go with Jon being a bastard. So yeah for now he is. 

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@Lady Blizzardborn

Rhaegar would never have gotten such a dispensation without the permission of the king. And Aerys II was in no mood to grant his son such a request. Even Viserys I didn't grant Daemon something like that, and Viserys loved Daemon. Aerys, on the other hand, distrusted Rhaegar and feared the man was plotting depose and/or kill him.

We know from Ran that the High Septon essentially became the puppet of the Targaryen kings after Jaehaerys I made his deal with the Faith. The chance that a High Septon before the High Sparrow could do anything as major as permitting the Prince of Dragonstone a second wife without a permission from the king are very low indeed.

Also keep in mind that Aerys II had a spare in Viserys. House Targaryen did not necessarily need heirs from Rhaegar, even though Rhaegar himself might have wanted sons.

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Good job Rhaegar was planning on deposing his father then isn't it. 

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Jon grew up a man apart - raised by a foster mother who would never love him and made to feel less human than his half-siblings.  It matters not whether or not he is given recognition of legitimacy as a Stark or Targaryen.  It matters not whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married.  Jon's formative years won't suddenly change.  He will always be a bastard, even if he isn't literally a bastard.

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6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

To expand the world-building and lore of Westeros and Martinverse in general? To give background of Targaryens and show how their culture clashed with Westerosi?

It's not like we aren't beaten over our heads with "incest is a big no no" every couple of pages, so in this respect, polygamy is completely redundant. Not to mention the conspicuous lack of negative comments towards polygamy.

 

6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

To show power struggles between Faith and Targs, shifts in their power and the fact that Targs practiced polygamy when they thought they could get away with it (and stopped when it became non-opportune) etc.

Which power struggles are you talking about? In the series proper, the Faith does as the Targs say and officiates their incestuous marriages, even though incest is considered abominable in the eyes of gods and men. 

Besides, it is incorrect to claim that the Targs stopped practicisng polygamy because it became a problem - it was never a widespread custom to begin with (unlike incest). When Aegon married both his sister, it was considered an unusual move even back then.

 

6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

The fact that we had Targ cases of polygamy simply means that GRRM can use it again, not that he has to or even that he should. In fact - there are plenty of other weird/cool stuff mentioned in ASOIAF lore that nobody argues we'll ever see again (on the basis of the same logic you're using). Will we ever see Rhyonar and their water magic? Or Summer Islanders playing a big part in the Story? Or reemergence of Houses Greystark, Reyne or Hoare?... Or a series of smallfolk-benefiting reforms that Egg planned? Or a Trial by Seven (very debatable)?

And how exactly is all this cool stuff related to a PoV character and the main story arc?

6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Or another Long Night that will last a generation?

Kinda funny that something similar seems to be coming right now.

6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

History repeats itself, aye, but rarely so literally.

History perhaps not, but GRRM likes his parallels. A melancholic guy whom few really knew, marrying one woman for duty and the other for love, creating three dragon heads... sounds familiar? 

 

 

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I like the theory that Ned and Ashara Dayne were deeply in love, betrothed and set to marry before the events that preceded Robert's Rebellion occurred. Then when Ned went to Riverrun Hoster Tully demanded that he marry the daughter his older brother Brandon was previously betrothed to before he got himself killed on a fool's mission. Eddard being who he is said that he couldn't because he was already betrothed to Ashara Dayne. Hoster Tully then said if Ned didn't marry Catelyn he wouldn't support the rebels in the war. With his best friend Robert waiting for him and his armies Ned reluctantly agreed to marry Catelyn having no choice. I believe Catelyn was there for the hole negotiation and never spoke up to say she didn't want to marry a man that was already betrothed to a women he loved. I think Ned felt that if Catelyn had spoke out against the idea of the marriage after her father demanded it The Tully's still would have supported the rebels because of the marriage between Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. Also I think Ned was offended Catelyn would even consider a marriage to him after her betrothed, his brother, had just died. Needless to say Eddard was pissed at both Hoster and Catelyn but did his duty in order to save the lives of his friends and himself and to avenge his family.

Catelyn herself say that custom demanded that Ned stepped in Brandon's place (not to mention that "had just died" was a couple of months ago), and there is zero indication in Ned's PoV that he ever resented Cat for doing her duty.

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Then Ned killed his beloved Ashara's brother to save Lyanna only to hear her confess she chose to run off with Rhaegar before she died giving birth to a malformed stillborn with wings. Then Ned goes to Starfall to return Dawn and inform Ashara he not only killed her brother but he also can't marry her now that he's already married the Tully girl. Ashara told him he broke her heart and he was an evil dishonorable man then of course jumped to her certain doom.

And that's why he never pays a single thought to Ashara?

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Finally on the last leg of his journey home from all the hell he had been through he returned Willam Dustin's horse to Barbrey because it was such a majestic steed. Barbrey scolded him for not bringing her husbands bones back instead and probably said something about him being half the man Brandon was and that he should have died instead. At this point poor Eddard Stark is depressed, mentally exhausted and enraged that he has had to suffer the consequences off all his sibling's and friend's poor choices and lies. He questions his own honor and the honor of all men and whether or not he can do something ANYTHING to balance the scales of all the destruction he has come to witness in the past year. Finally when he arrives at a village near Winter Town to water his horse and prepare for his return to Winterfell. He finds a dying mother and her infant son, who's father died fighting for the Starks in what Ned has come to realize was a pointless war. Guilt ridden that this babe will have no one once his mother dies and may die itself, in his befuddled state of mind he decides that adopting this babe just may be one thing that can help redeem him in the eyes of the Gods. He's also pretty pissed off at Catelyn and the Tullys and blames them for Ashara's death. So he claims the child as his bastard and brings it to Winterfell. He won't let Catelyn's pride and ego go unchecked and let the North think the Tully's outmaneuvered him, so this child will prove that no Southern House can use him as a pawn to push around without consequence. This is not my theory, though I added on to it. Jon's not a bastard just some lowborn son of two Northern smallfolk. While I'm 90% on R+L=J the other 10% of me believes this to be the only other possibility for Jon's parentage.

And this random babe looks like a Stark because...?

And where exactly in Ned's PoV do you find any basis for deliberately demeaning his wife?

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