Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And? The lack of evidence aside, Aegon's children were born after the conquest, so by your own logic, their status would be dubious. And while people were certainly pissed with Maegor, he still  managed polygamous marriages even after that day. Lastly, GRRM's own words: There was and IS precedent. Acceptance of a polygamous marriage would be a different thing but it is incorrect to claim that a polygamous Targaryen marriage would be illegal.

As Ygrain, points out it is not just a lack of evidence that a ban on polygamy takes place once Aegon becomes king, it is also the evidence it is not so. Aenys is the son of Aegon's second wife, Rhaenys. If a ban had occurred with Aegon accepting the High Septon anointing of him as king, then it would be his marriage to Rhaenys that would be in question, and by extension her son Aenys status as legitimate placed into question. But it is not so. Aenys as the elder son takes the crown upon Aegon's death. No question about Aenys's legitimately was ever raised based on a second polygamous marriage. There was no agreement between crown and the Faith to look upon Aegon's second marriage and his heir by it as illegitimate. Nor does it make sense to think Aenys would agree to such a ban after his father's death. It would call into question his own right to the throne. No, Aenys objects to his brother's polygamous marriage, not because it is polygamous, but because he didn't get Aenys's approval beforehand. Even here, Maegor is banned, but his marriage stands.

[Bowen Marsh]

7 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

You might want to consider the sequence of events.  Aegon the Conqueror married his wives BEFORE they became rulers of Westeros.  In other words, they were already married when they took office.  Polygamy became illegal from that day forward and children of such relationships are bastards.

I would imagine it was negotiated in the back rooms of Oldtown.  Aegon and the Faith's septon had a discussion.  The ability to ride dragons is of great importance and nobody in their right mind would give up that talent for anything.  Polygamy confers no advantage whatsoever and Aegon gave that up to the septon.  It doesn't matter in his case because he was already married pre-conquest.  His marriage was grandfathered in and it gave him the last legal marriage of that sort.  The only way for a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna could be made legal would require the cooperation of the King Aerys.  Rhaegar on his own does not have the authority to make such a practice legal. 

R + L = Bastard. 

[Lord Varys]

The scriptures of the Faith (the Seven-pointed Star and the other books) forbid both incest and polygamy.

'The Sons of the Dragon' makes it clear that the High Septon who crowned Aegon the Conqueror in Oldtown did not declare his incestuous and polygamous marriages legal. He (and his five successors) did also not publicly condemn those marriages but the Faith didn't change his stand on either polygamy nor incest.

When the Conqueror died the matter wasn't settled, and it was also not settled by Maegor. Maegor outlawed the Faith Militant but he did not take over the Faith and ban the Seven-pointed Star nor did he make marriage a legal matter controlled by the Crown. Maegor's polygamous marriages were never accepted by the Faith. In fact, they are one of the main reason why the Faith and others continued to fight against him, eventually toppling him.

Jaehaerys I struck a deal with the Faith and made peace with the High Septon. But he never claimed the right of conducting marriages from the Faith.

The future Targaryen kings claimed the right to marry their children to each other but they didn't take the right to take more than one wife at the same time. If they had done this then Rhaegar might have been able to get away with polygamy. But they did not. Anybody invoking a precedent set by Maegor the Cruel would be met with a lot of opposition, especially if it was something as distasteful as polygamy.

If Rhaegar married another woman while Elia was still alive (and without getting an annulment in advance) the Faith and all its followers wouldn't consider that a real marriage. The very marriage vow of the Faith demands that a man marry only one woman and stay true to her his entire life.

It doesn't matter whether Rhaegar would marry the Valyrian way or in front of a weirwood. The Targaryens do follow the Seven. And the Faith forbids polygamy. Rhaegar would have sinned against the gods if he had taken a second wife.

This doesn't mean that he didn't do it but we can be pretty sure that nobody in Westeros would consider such a wife anything else but a mistress and a child from that marriage anything else but a bastard.

At least while Rhaegar didn't have the dragonfire to enforce his view on things with fire and blood. And he wasn't able to do that.

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Aenys is the son of Aegon's second wife, Rhaenys.

Rhaenys is Aegon's younger sister, not his second wife. We don't know when exactly Aegon the Conqueror married his sisters but it was before the Conquest and nothing indicates that Aegon didn't take both his sisters to wife in the same ceremony. That would be my guess. Aegon was expected to marry only his older sister Visenya but he married them both.

In addition, to question the legitimacy of the Conqueror's marriages and heirs is actually pretty silly. Nobody in Westeros did that nor would anyone have dared to do this. Rhaenys and Visenya conquered Westeros as much as Aegon himself. And they were all dragonriders. If Aegon had wanted he could have a made a bastard or distant cousin his heir, assuming they could mount one of the dragons.

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenys is Aegon's younger sister, not his second wife. 

That's not how I read the following:

Quote

By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual, though not without precedent. (TWoI&F 33) bold emphasis added

I expect we will know more with the release of the story in October, but this seems to indicate it is Rhaenys who is the second wife.

[Roswell]

3 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I would imagine it was negotiated in the back rooms of Oldtown.  Aegon and the Faith's septon had a discussion.  The ability to ride dragons is of great importance and nobody in their right mind would give up that talent for anything.  Polygamy confers no advantage whatsoever and Aegon gave that up to the septon.  It doesn't matter in his case because he was already married pre-conquest.  His marriage was grandfathered in and it gave him the last legal marriage of that sort.  The only way for a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna could be made legal would require the cooperation of the King Aerys.  Rhaegar on his own does not have the authority to make such a practice legal. 

R + L = Bastard. 

This

[Maxxine]

The issue with this discussion is I think we're looking at from the view. I don't think it's about what's legal vs. illegal. The "rules" in Westeros don't seem to turn on what is legal and what is illegal, but more what is accepted and what is not accepted. For instance, rape is illegal, but it is accepted in certain situations. When there is a battle or the sacking of a town women are expected to be raped and very few are punished for it during these situations (with the exception of people with Stannis). Sure people lament it, but it seems to be an expected and accepted part of war. Conversely, polygamy may not be explicitly illegal, but it doesn't seem to be an accepted practice as shown by the reaction to Maegor doing it and from no other Targs doing afterward even when it could have beneficial (had Duncan been able to do it maybe they could've avoided the Baratheon rebellion). I can't count Aegon as precedent for three reasons. 1) He was married to Visenya and Rhaenys before he came to Westeros. 2) Who was going to be  the septon to tell Aegon he was going to have to give up one of his wives right after he conquered almost all of Westeros and Harrenhal and the Field of Fire had just happened. At that point they almost had no choice but to accept it. 3) Rhaenys died pretty early in the reign so he only had one wife for most of his life. There may have been a bigger to do if he took another wife after Rhaenys's death.

So yeah I think Jon was born a bastard even if there was some wedding between him and Lyanna because by the standards of Westeros at the time polygamy was not an accepted practice. Even in Dorne, Lyanna would've been considered a paramour and Jon would still be a bastard. With that said, I think it is possible by the end Jon might be accepted as legitimate if for no other reason than he is the best option or they have to accept him because he has a dragon (this thought is not even counting that Robb may have legitimized him anyway). I don't want to be king but I could see it for these reasons regardless of whether he's a bastard

 

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I would imagine it was negotiated in the back rooms of Oldtown.  Aegon and the Faith's septon had a discussion.  The ability to ride dragons is of great importance and nobody in their right mind would give up that talent for anything.  Polygamy confers no advantage whatsoever and Aegon gave that up to the septon.  It doesn't matter in his case because he was already married pre-conquest.  His marriage was grandfathered in and it gave him the last legal marriage of that sort.  The only way for a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna could be made legal would require the cooperation of the King Aerys.  Rhaegar on his own does not have the authority to make such a practice legal. 

R + L = Bastard. 

However, your imaginings are not evidence. In fact we know later Targaryens than Aegon's sons considered it as a possibility.

Quote

This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge hm in  this (some Blackfyre's partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenarys's hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne. (TW0I&F 101)

That Aegon IV might have considered it, and Daemon Blackfyre thought it possible speaks to it not being outlawed by a pact with the Faith.

So too we also have this well known possibility spoken of later on in the story present as Ser Jorah talks to Daenerys about this as a possible option for her.

Quote

"Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust. Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen - three dragons and three riders."

'Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

"Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon's wives as we'll as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands." (ASoS 99) bold emphasis added.

Note the plural. There is no bar to Targaryen polygamy. Never was, and that includes the days of the weak power of the Faith during Aerys's reign. The only bar is the will of the Targaryen kings themselves in controlling who their kin married.

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The scriptures of the Faith (the Seven-pointed Star and the other books) forbid both incest and polygamy.

'The Sons of the Dragon' makes it clear that the High Septon who crowned Aegon the Conqueror in Oldtown did not declare his incestuous and polygamous marriages legal. He (and his five successors) did also not publicly condemn those marriages but the Faith didn't change his stand on either polygamy nor incest.

When the Conqueror died the matter wasn't settled, and it was also not settled by Maegor. Maegor outlawed the Faith Militant but he did not take over the Faith and ban the Seven-pointed Star nor did he make marriage a legal matter controlled by the Crown. Maegor's polygamous marriages were never accepted by the Faith. In fact, they are one of the main reason why the Faith and others continued to fight against him, eventually toppling him.

Jaehaerys I struck a deal with the Faith and made peace with the High Septon. But he never claimed the right of conducting marriages from the Faith.

The future Targaryen kings claimed the right to marry their children to each other but they didn't take the right to take more than one wife at the same time. If they had done this then Rhaegar might have been able to get away with polygamy. But they did not. Anybody invoking a precedent set by Maegor the Cruel would be met with a lot of opposition, especially if it was something as distasteful as polygamy.

What the Faith accepted is not as clear as you make it out LV. They did nothing to challenge Aegon's marriages during his lifetime. When they sensed weakness in Aenys, they challenged him on sibling marriage and polygamy, but the Faith lost in their battle with the Targaryens as is clear by the terms of the settlement between the Faith and Jaehaerys I, and by the long history of sibling marriages that follow that settlement. There is absolutely nothing to show any Targaryen king agreed to curb the practice of polygamous marriage, and there are the examples above that show that others think of it as an option up to and including in Dany's present day. To make a case out of thin air that it could have happen, ignores this evidence and substitutes the reader's bias for the story.

I'm looking forward, as I'm sure you are to the release of the Sons of the Dragon in the Fall to see if there is any new information to be gleaned here.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I would imagine it was negotiated in the back rooms of Oldtown.  Aegon and the Faith's septon had a discussion.  The ability to ride dragons is of great importance and nobody in their right mind would give up that talent for anything.  Polygamy confers no advantage whatsoever and Aegon gave that up to the septon. 

Quote, please? Your assumptions don't make a case.

6 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

It doesn't matter in his case because he was already married pre-conquest. 

Maegor was married well post-conquest. You know, the guy who had several wives, some of them simultaneously.

6 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Polygamy confers no advantage whatsoever

Again, Maegor. Who could not father an heir no matter how he tried. So here you go your "no advantage whatsoever": means to secure heirs, provided the fault is not on your side.

2 hours ago, Maxxine said:

. Conversely, polygamy may not be explicitly illegal, but it doesn't seem to be an accepted practice as shown by the reaction to Maegor doing it and from no other Targs doing afterward even when it could have beneficial

May I point out that the reaction to incest was much the same like to Maegor's polygamy, yet the practice was kept? As for lack of polygamy after Maegor, see SFDanny's post: it was considered unusual even by Valyrian standards, yet it was considered at least at some points.

 

2 hours ago, Maxxine said:

(had Duncan been able to do it maybe they could've avoided the Baratheon rebellion).

You mean, taking a Lord Paramount's daughter as a second wife to a commoner Jenny? Hardly.

2 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I can't count Aegon as precedent for three reasons. 1) He was married to Visenya and Rhaenys before he came to Westeros. 2) Who was going to be  the septon to tell Aegon he was going to have to give up one of his wives right after he conquered almost all of Westeros and Harrenhal and the Field of Fire had just happened. At that point they almost had no choice but to accept it. 3) Rhaenys died pretty early in the reign so he only had one wife for most of his life. There may have been a bigger to do if he took another wife after Rhaenys's death.

Sorry but you don't get to say what makes a precedent. The whole Targaryen lineage is derived from a polygamous king, fullstop. Whether he married pre- or post- does not change a fact that he did. And then there is Maegor, of course. And whichever way you look at it, there is GRRM saying that the precedent exists, although polygamy would be more difficult to pull these days without a dragon. He never says it would be outright impossible.

 

 

[Lord Friendzone]

On 20. 3. 2017 at 9:18 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm not sure it is important Jon is legitimate or bastard. He is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Of Ice and Fire. Likely he has the Song of Ice and Fire, whatever it means. The wildlings believe to be the son of a king does not make of you a king, or at least the right leader. This makes sense to me. And Viserys was one blatant example.

I absolutely don't care if Jon is legitimate or bastard.

True and the whole thread summed up. People are too focused on whether he is a legit or not, while missing the most important thing. With him it's not really about the name, but the blood that is important. He can be legitimized by Dany or FAegon if needed to be to secure a valuable ally.

 

[Ygrain]

Lol, it doesn't matter to me if his legitimacy matters or not (most likely not). I just want to find out

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That's not how I read the following:

I expect we will know more with the release of the story in October, but this seems to indicate it is Rhaenys who is the second wife.

Rhaenys was Aegon's primary wife, the one he loved. Visenya he just suffered. And in the end they lived effectively in separation.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

What the Faith accepted is not as clear as you make it out LV.

It is made clear in 'The Sons of the Dragon'. 

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

They did nothing to challenge Aegon's marriages during his lifetime.

But they didn't accept it, either. The High Septons simply never spoke about that. When the High Septon crowned and anointed her the Most Devout actually expected him to condemned the Conqueror and his sister-wives. And the Faith's establishment - the humble septons, begging brothers, Faith Militant, etc. - never changed their view on either polygamy and incest. They condemned it. They still do, actually. Just remember Dunk's view on incest.

You don't have to challenge somebody's marriage to know it is illegal and wrong.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

When they sensed weakness in Aenys, they challenged him on sibling marriage and polygamy, but the Faith lost in their battle with the Targaryens as is clear by the terms of the settlement between the Faith and Jaehaerys I, and by the long history of sibling marriages that follow that settlement.

But the battle wasn't won by Maegor. It was ended by Jaehaerys I. And he didn't practice polygamy.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

There is absolutely nothing to show any Targaryen king agreed to curb the practice of polygamous marriage, and there are the examples above that show that others think of it as an option up to and including in Dany's present day. To make a case out of thin air that it could have happen, ignores this evidence and substitutes the reader's bias for the story.

Polygamy simply isn't something the Faith allows you to do. If you are a king or queen like the Conqueror, Maegor (when he was king), or Daenerys you can try to do it. But there is no reason to believe that polygamy was ever 'legal' for anyone. Polygamy was always something only people above the law could try to do.

That is even the justification Maegor gives in 'The Sons of the Dragons'. As a scion of the blood of the dragon he is above the scriptures of the Faith that rule 'lesser men'. But in truth only the king is above the law, not a prince. Not only the Faith did not acknowledge Prince Maegor's second wife, King Aenys didn't accept it, either. And as head of House Targaryen and king he ruled the members of the royal family in all things. Maegor and Visenya could conduct a hundred secret marriage ceremonies, if the king and the Faith didn't acknowledge Alys as Maegor's wife no children from such a union could ever hope to be considered legitimate.

And that's the point at issue here. It is the same with Rhaegar. Some ceremony means nothing if you can't force the people to accept it as a proper marriage. The idea that Rhaegar could do something Prince Maegor and Queen Visenya could not back in 39-40 AC when they were riding Balerion and Vhagar, respectively, is ridiculous.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I'm looking forward, as I'm sure you are to the release of the Sons of the Dragon in the Fall to see if there is any new information to be gleaned here.

The marriages of the Conqueror won't be discussed there. Maegor's many marriages should be a topic there but we already know that the Faith did not accept those. It will be interesting to find out who married Tyanna and the black brides to him. I'm be reasonably positive that he essentially took some septon hostage and gave him the choice to conduct the marriage or die a gruesome death. And we can be reasonably certain that such a marriage is essentially not seen as valid by the Faith, just as people who are forced to marry somebody against their will are also seen as invalid by the Faith.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That Aegon IV might have considered it, and Daemon Blackfyre thought it possible speaks to it not being outlawed by a pact with the Faith.

That isn't the case. A king can ignore law. He is above the law, just as some ancient First Men kings could take multiple wives. Polygamy wasn't the rule among the First Men, either, but kings can do what they want if they are strong enough to do so.

But the idea that Aegon IV truly intended to allow Daemon Blackfyre something that he himself dared not is very far-fetched. If he truly intended to grant Daemon his own daughter Daenerys as a second wife he would have very likely sealed his own end, as well as the end of the Targaryen monarchy. There is no chance that this could possibly have worked.

It is much more likely that some Blackfyre sycophants later - when there was an actual romance or attraction going on between Daenerys and Daemon - used this tale of Daeron II having preventing a marriage between these two lovers to help to get more sympathy for Daemon during the rebellion. Princess Daenerys was only twelve in 184 AC. It is very unlikely that Aegon IV had already decided who his daughter should marry. Else Daemon wouldn't have been betrothed to Rohanne of Tyrosh.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

So too we also have this well known possibility spoken of later on in the story present as Ser Jorah talks to Daenerys about this as a possible option for her.

Jorah is not representing the or speaking for the Faith of the Andals, nor for the pious lords and smallfolk of Westeros. If Daenerys Targaryen shows up with two or even more husbands in Westeros the Faith won't accept this. The current High Septon might not even accept a female monarch. Dany might be able to force the Westerosi to accept her barbarous ways but she will have to do so with fire and blood.

Rhaegar never got around to even try to do this. He could not even save the crown and throne of his royal father.

[The Commentator]

Spoiler

Do not expect the show to address this topic because they've already chosen their path.  I do not expect GM's plot to follow theirs.  Thankfully.

There is a big difference between the situation Daenerys is in and the situation Rhaegar was in.  Dany's situation is more comparable to that of Aegon the Conqueror.  Dany would marry two men outside of Westeros under very different rules and customs prior to her arrival to retake her throne.  Besides, unlike Rhaegar, Dany is already a ruler, a Queen in her own right.  She gets to write the rules.  Rhaegar was only a hopeful and he got disinherited at that!  Rhaegar was obligated to live by the rules that his family and his father put in place.  Dany is under no such obligation.  The laws of Westeros do not extend beyond its tiny borders.  It's a much bigger world and rules are not the same everywhere.

Now let me set aside my Jon hate and look at things from his perspective.  If the North can somehow manage to section itself off and become independent.  And that independence is recognized and accepted by the ruler in King's Landing, then at that point, the North can do what it pleases.  The North can practice its savage heathen religions and sacrifice all they want to the demon trees.  They can make polygamy legal.  Or not.  They don't even have to do that.  If they choose a bastard as their leader, then they can just do it.  But first they have to become independent from the rest of the country.  Woe unto them because this guy, Jon, cannot be relied upon but that is their choice.  They can act just as silly as:

Spoiler

lady mormont and the rest of the northern gang on the show and elect Jon as their leader.

 

Spoiler

They can even give him Winterfell.  Which if he is the son of Brandon and Lyanna would be his anyway.  He would be the lord of winterfell after Brandon.  They could have married in front of a heart tree and the Old Gods would not really care about too much of the technicalities.  Just so long as they promise to make a blood donation every once in a while the Old Gods are happy. 

 

[Ygrain]

15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Rhaegar was only a hopeful and he got disinherited at that! 

Could you show some quote that Rhaegar was disinherited? To my best recollection, it may be argued that Aegon was jumped in the succession line, but not Rhaegar.

15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Rhaegar was obligated to live by the rules that his family and his father put in place.

You mean, like Maegor, or Duncan the Small, and so on and so on?

[The Commentator]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Could you show some quote that Rhaegar was disinherited? To my best recollection, it may be argued that Aegon was jumped in the succession line, but not Rhaegar.

You mean, like Maegor, or Duncan the Small, and so on and so on?

Rhaegar's children was disinherited.  Including his child with Lyanna, if he had one.   In any case, Rhaegar was in no position to challenge the laws of his father, the king. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That's not how I read the following:

I expect we will know more with the release of the story in October, but this seems to indicate it is Rhaenys who is the second wife.

Sorry, but what release in October? Did I miss something?

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sorry, but what release in October? Did I miss something?

We'll get 'The Sons of the Dragon' in a story anthology in October. It is called 'The Book of Swords'.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You mean, like Maegor, or Duncan the Small, and so on and so on?

Duncan the Small lost his claim to the Iron Throne and had to hand Dragonstone to his little brother Jaehaerys. He could keep his wife but he lost everything else.

And Aegon V could have taken his head for that, just as Viserys I was pushed to take Daemon's head by his advisers on multiple occasions.

But the comparison is faulty in any case. Duncan did not take a second wife. And Maegor even had to leave Westeros itself.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Rhaegar's children was disinherited.  Including his child with Lyanna, if he had one.   In any case, Rhaegar was in no position to challenge the laws of his father, the king. 

Quote, please. To my best knowledge, all we have is "his new heir Viserys", which may, and may not, mean that Aerys jumped Aegon in the succession line, and definitely doesn't mean that Aegon was completely disinherited, or that all of Rhaegar's children were disinherited. And even if all of Rhaegar's children were disinherited, it's never stated that it was because of Rhaegar's polygamy or disobedience or whatever, and not just because of Aerys' favoriting Viserys no matter what. - In other words, unless you have access to some extra sources, you are claiming your assumptions for facts.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We'll get 'The Sons of the Dragon' in a story anthology in October. It is called 'The Book of Swords'. We may

 

Huh. Turns out, I did miss something, and quite some time ago.

Ah, well, that's what the forum's for. Thanks.

[SFDanny]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenys was Aegon's primary wife, the one he loved. Visenya he just suffered. And in the end they lived effectively in separation.

This has nothing to do with what I said. Polygamy is defined by taking more than one spouse. Aegon does that when he takes a second wife. Not when he chooses who his favorite is. The quote I gave from The World of Ice & Fire names Rhaenys as the second wife, does it not? For the Faith, that means Aegon violates their religious law when he takes a second wife and all children from that marriage would seem to be suspect. That the Faith does nothing when Aenys, the son of a second marriage, becomes king does say something about whether or not they had an agreement with Aegon from his second coronation to do away with polygamy. It says they did not. It does not point to a change in their religious views on the topic, but it does say something about the lack of any such agreement between the Faith and the Crown.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is made clear in 'The Sons of the Dragon'. 

We will have to disagree here. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you about what the Faith thought of polygamy through out the period. What is not clear at all from the my reading is the existence any agreement between the Faith and the crown at all on this subject until Jaehaerys I has his negotiations to what amounts to the Faith's capitulation in the religious wars of the time. I would love to see you quote from "The Sons of the Dragon" where it makes clear such an agreement was in place, can you do so?

My view is a simple straightforward one. It seems to me, the Hightowers save their base of power and their titles for family and allies with their decision to open their gates and accept the Targaryens as their rulers. They do what every ruler left alive outside of Dorne in order to survive. There is no negotiation over religious laws. The Faith, instead, wait until they sense weakness in the new king, Aenys I Targaryen, and then try to impose their religious views on their monarchs. This breaks out into a full fledged religious war with Maegor. All the evidence points to the Targaryens never giving in to the right of the Faith to govern what they do in their marriage customs. It isn't until the current story that the Faith again rebels and tries to reestablish its own supremacy. After the Targaryens are 16+ years gone from power.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But they didn't accept it, either. The High Septons simply never spoke about that. When the High Septon crowned and anointed her the Most Devout actually expected him to condemned the Conqueror and his sister-wives. And the Faith's establishment - the humble septons, begging brothers, Faith Militant, etc. - never changed their view on either polygamy and incest. They condemned it. They still do, actually. Just remember Dunk's view on incest.

None of which we are arguing about, with the exception of your first sentence. They clearly accepted the fact the Targaryens have their own rules and customs outside of what the Faith proscribes. Not that the Faith cannot continue their beliefs and teachings regarding incest and polygamy. They just accept the Targaryens are an exception to their religious law.. They accept this when they lay down their arms, disband their armies, and accept the King's justice over all of the faithful. Every time a marriage between a Targaryen brother and sister takes place and they recognize the wedding and any children from such a marriage, the Faith exhibits their concession to Targaryen supremacy in this area.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't have to challenge somebody's marriage to know it is illegal and wrong.

To make it illegal, or to outlaw it, you do. You not only have to challenge the right of the Targaryens to set their own laws and marriage customs, but you have to win that challenge. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the battle wasn't won by Maegor. It was ended by Jaehaerys I. And he didn't practice polygamy.

Which has nothing to do with whether or not he surrendered the right to have polygamous marriages to future Targaryens.

More later LV.