Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

[Ygrain]

19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

You not only have to challenge the right of the Targaryens to set their own laws and marriage customs, but you have to win that challenge. 

Which never happened. The Faith Militant disbanded and the High Septons officiating incestuous marriages don't exactly scream "victory". 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

This has nothing to do with what I said. Polygamy is defined by taking more than one spouse. Aegon does that when he takes a second wife. Not when he chooses who his favorite is. The quote I gave from The World of Ice & Fire names Rhaenys as the second wife, does it not?

TWoIaF does not make Rhaenys a second wife in a temporal sense. I can have five houses, and buy all them at the same time while still referring to them as my first, second, third, etc. house in conversation. That's what happens in TWoIaF. If we recite Maegor's wife Rhaena, Elinor, and Jeyne will get numbers, too, never mind that they are all Maegor's fourth wife in a temporal sense because the man took them to wife in a single ceremony in 47 AC.

Visenya was supposed to be Aegon's only wife but that's not what happened.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

For the Faith, that means Aegon violates their religious law when he takes a second wife and all children from that marriage would seem to be suspect.

The Faith wasn't involved in Aegon's marriages at all. Aegon married back on Dragonstone, and most likely not in a ceremony done by a septon. This happened long before the Conquest and it is pretty clear that the Faith lacked the power to challenge Aegon's incest or polygamy but they made it clear that they would not suffer this kind of abominable behavior in Westeros. And Aegon accepted that.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

That the Faith does nothing when Aenys, the son of a second marriage, becomes king does say something about whether or not they had an agreement with Aegon from his second coronation to do away with polygamy. It says they did not. It does not point to a change in their religious views on the topic, but it does say something about the lack of any such agreement between the Faith and the Crown.

'The Sons of the Dragon' makes it clear that Aegon did defer to the High Septons and was very keen to prevent the outbreak of violence between the Crown and the Faith. The Most Devout and the Faith at large continued to oppose incest and polygamy and no High Septon ever sanctioned or blessed Aegon's incestuous and polygamous unions.

There was no question about whether polygamy or incest was 'legal' or 'accepted' among the members of House Targaryen. The High Septons made it clear that it wasn't. They just suffered him and his sister-wives as a single exception. And Aegon accepted that. Prince Maegor and Aenys I later challenged that, and then Aenys I and all Targaryens were denounced as abominations and all pious men were urged to kill them.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

We will have to disagree here. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you about what the Faith thought of polygamy through out the period. What is not clear at all from the my reading is the existence any agreement between the Faith and the crown at all on this subject until Jaehaerys I has his negotiations to what amounts to the Faith's capitulation in the religious wars of the time. I would love to see you quote from "The Sons of the Dragon" where it makes clear such an agreement was in place, can you do so?

There was no need for such an agreement because it was clear that incest and polygamy was forbidden. Everybody knew that.

Jaehaerys I most likely also didn't make a deal with the Faith allowing incest and polygamy. He just ignored religious law and married his sister and continued to arrange incestuous marriages among his children and other close relations.

The Faith never changed his views on polygamy and incest. Else Dunk would view incest much differently in TSS. Not to mention that close relations of the Targaryens - the Velaryons, Baratheons, etc. would most likely also have continued the incest if it had been officially allowed.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

My view is a simple straightforward one. It seems to me, the Hightowers save their base of power and their titles for family and allies with their decision to open their gates and accept the Targaryens as their rulers. They do what every ruler left alive outside of Dorne in order to survive. There is no negotiation over religious laws. The Faith, instead, wait until they sense weakness in the new king, Aenys I Targaryen, and then try to impose their religious views on their monarchs.

No, that isn't the case. The High Septon in 1 BC convinces Lord Hightower to welcome Aegon and then crowns and anoints him the King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men against the will of the Most Devout of his day and age. 'Familiarity is the father of acceptance' is what the enemies of the High Septon say. They fear that the Targaryens will continue their abominable ways if they are not stopped. And they were right, at least where the incest is concerned (which is what the Targaryens actually care about).

Aegon moves very carefully to always keep the High Septons happy during his reign. That's why Maegor isn't betrothed to Rhaena and is married to Ceryse Hightower instead. Aegon is defers to the Faith and accepts their views on incest and polygamy. The Faith was willing to continue the war against the Targaryens during the Conquest or start a holy crusade back then. It was the cowardice or wisdom of the High Septon back then that postponed that war to the reigns of Aenys I and Maegor.

The Targaryens were lucky. If the Faith had denounced Aegon back during the Conquest the Targaryens wouldn't have been able to consolidate their power. 

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

This breaks out into a full fledged religious war with Maegor. All the evidence points to the Targaryens never giving in to the right of the Faith to govern what they do in their marriage customs. It isn't until the current story that the Faith again rebels and tries to reestablish its own supremacy. After the Targaryens are 16+ years gone from power.did 

That isn't so. The Faith rules marriages till this day. Septons officiate at all weddings in the South, and the Targaryens always followed the Faith of the Seven, too. They defer in religious matters to the Faith to this day. Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne by the High Septon and nothing in his marriage vow allows for Rhaegar to take a second wife.

But back during the reign of the Conqueror the Faith's power still had teeth. Aegon played by their rules not his own. The High Septons did not challenge Aegon's marriages but, again, they also did never declare them legal or blessed them. And the polygamy problem disappeared in 10 AC, anyway, when Rhaenys died and Aegon never replaced her, keeping only one sister-wife for the remainder 27 years of his reign.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

None of which we are arguing about, with the exception of your first sentence. They clearly accepted the fact the Targaryens have their own rules and customs outside of what the Faith proscribes.

No, they did not. You will read those passages in October yourself. It was open wound, an unresolved issue. An issue that could only be resolved by the submission of one side or by war. Aegon deferred to the Faith and never came into the position to press the incest issue because he had no daughters.

We also learn that Aegon confirmed all the ancient rights and privileges of the Faith, privileges Maegor and Jaehaerys I later challenged.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Not that the Faith cannot continue their beliefs and teachings regarding incest and polygamy. They just accept the Targaryens are an exception to their religious law.. They accept this when they lay down their arms, disband their armies, and accept the King's justice over all of the faithful.

That is not really the case. To this day people still believe the Targaryens are cursed by the gods because of their incest. Jaehaerys I and Barth only seem to resolve the issue of the Faith Militant and the independent justice system of the Faith. Nothing indicates they talked about the Targaryen incest. I'd be surprised if Jaehaerys I felt the need to formally gain permission of the Faith to marry his sister or marry his children to each other. He would have just done that. And with Barth he even had a septon who could officiate at such marriages.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Every time a marriage between a Targaryen brother and sister takes place and they recognize the wedding and any children from such a marriage, the Faith exhibits their concession to Targaryen supremacy in this area.

Eventually they no longer challenged it openly but they still condemn it.

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

To make it illegal, or to outlaw it, you do. You not only have to challenge the right of the Targaryens to set their own laws and marriage customs, but you have to win that challenge. 

No, religious laws are religious laws. Incest and polygamy were illegal long before the Targaryens came as per the sacred scriptures of the Faith and the Targaryens did neither rewrite them, nor burn them, or eradicate the Faith. They converted to it.

And the Seven don't care what mortal men think they can get away with. They and their followers know better. 

We can say the incest was a standing exception in the later centuries but nobody ever says it was legal or allowed for anyone but the king to arrange an incestuous marriage (which, by the scriptures of the Faith, is only defined as brother-sister, father-daughter, and mother-son, by the way).

20 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Which has nothing to do with whether or not he surrendered the right to have polygamous marriages to future Targaryens.

Such a right never existed. Only kings got away with polygamy, and Aegon only because he and his sister-wives conquered Westeros. Prince Maegor went into exile, condemned not only by the Faith but also by King Aenys. There is no reason whatsoever to assume Jaehaerys I ever felt any inclination to get a general permission for his descendants to take multiple spouses. Why should he? There is no reason to believe he or any Targaryen of that era felt a need to marry multiple women. In fact, he knew his uncle's polygamous lifestyle is what led, in part, to the man's downfall and his own rise to power. 

[The Twinslayer]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

None of which we are arguing about, with the exception of your first sentence. They clearly accepted the fact the Targaryens have their own rules and customs outside of what the Faith proscribes. Not that the Faith cannot continue their beliefs and teachings regarding incest and polygamy. They just accept the Targaryens are an exception to their religious law.. They accept this when they lay down their arms, disband their armies, and accept the King's justice over all of the faithful. Every time a marriage between a Targaryen brother and sister takes place and they recognize the wedding and any children from such a marriage, the Faith exhibits their concession to Targaryen supremacy in this area.

The fact is, we really don't know what agreement Jaehaerys reached with the Faith when he ended the Faith Militant uprising.  It is possible, as you have suggested, that there was no agreement:  Jaehaerys won the war and he dictated terms to the Faith without making any concessions other than a toothless promise to "protect and defend the Faith."  I think if that were the case, he would be known to history as "Jaehaerys the Dictator."

But he is not "the Dictator," he is "the Conciliator."  To me that implies that he made some concessions that allowed the leaders of the Faith to save face.  That is what conciliation means.  

We know what the Faith gave up:  the right to judge their own in their own courts and the weapons of the Faith Militant.  We know what Jaehaerys did not give up:  his marriage with his sister, the legitimacy of his children, and his family's ability to control the dragons, i.e., incest.  

But we do know that there was something else that really bothered the Faith and that would cost Jaehaerys nothing if he gave it up:  polygamy.  This is something that House Targaryen viewed as neither common nor important.  Outlawing it would go a long way toward making the Faith happy and it would cast no more doubt on Jaehaerys' own legitimacy than the Act of Settlement (prohibiting English princes and princesses from marrying Roman Catholics in the future) casts on Queen Elizabeth II's legitimacy even though she is descended from a long line of Roman Catholic monarchs.

And we also know that House Targaryen steered clear of polygamy after that.  I think that if you see 2 of the first 3 kings practicing polygamy over the objection of the Faith, a reconciliation with the Faith and the establishment of a uniform code of laws for the entire country, and then no king even attempting polygamy for more than 300 years after that, that is a pretty good indication that polygamy was outlawed.

And, we have to remember that House Targaryen was not exempt from the general laws relating to marriage practices.  The Princess and the Queen explains that prior to the reign of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, first night was practiced on Dragonstone, but that the practice was banned.  Meaning that after the new law, the ruler of Dragonstone -- usually, the Crown Prince -- was forbidden from practicing first night.  During the reign of Aerys II, that ruler was Rhaegar.  So if Rhaegar had tried to practice first night, which certainly is a custom relating to marriage, he would be breaking the law -- proving that the Targaryens are not exempt from the laws relating to marriage.    

You also have to remember that we aren't talking about a king here, we are talking about Prince Rhaegar.  There are a few examples where lesser royals asked for permission to take a second wife, but that permission was never given and no-one ever tried it without the king's permission (unlike the incestuous marriages, which were all done either with prospective or retroactive permission from the king).  That is likely because (as in medieval Europe), a prince who married without the king's permission lost his and his children's place in the succession.  So if Rhaegar did try to marry Lyanna, it likely means that Jon is a bastard (or the product of a morganatic marriage) anyway.

In the end, I think that an argument that because Targaryen princes and princesses were able to marry close relatives if they had the king's permission, that must mean that a Targaryen prince could take a second wife without the king's permission, makes little sense. 

ETA:  Also note that Rhaegar married Elia in a sept, so one of his vows was a vow of fidelity to her.  There is no evidence at all that Targaryens had their own special wedding vows that left out the one about monogomy.  

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Which never happened. The Faith Militant disbanded and the High Septons officiating incestuous marriages don't exactly scream "victory". 

Exactly. It screams total defeat for the Faith's agenda. Combine this with the attempts of other Targaryens later to have more than one spouse (Daemon Blackfyre) and Ser Jorah's remarks to Dany, and what you get is all evidence pointing no outlawing of polygamy for Targaryens.

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

The fact is, we really don't know what agreement Jaehaerys reached with the Faith when he ended the Faith Militant uprising.  It is possible, as you have suggested, that there was no agreement:  Jaehaerys won the war and he dictated terms to the Faith without making any concessions other than a toothless promise to "protect and defend the Faith."  I think if that were the case, he would be known to history as "Jaehaerys the Dictator."

But he is not "the Dictator," he is "the Conciliator."  To me that implies that he made some concessions that allowed the leaders of the Faith to save face.  That is what conciliation means. 

No, that's not actually what conciliation means. It means to bring different parties into agreement, to eliminate hostility. It doesn't mean both sides must give up something to achieve this end. Jaehaerys is known as the "Conciliator" because he brought and end to the religious wars and brought peace to the land. The terms we know show only the Faith giving anything. The Crown agrees to be the Faith's protector. Something the Faith only needs because the Crown itself was killing the Faithful during the wars. It is the protection of a gang lord over the merchant who agrees to do what exactly the gangster wants, in exchange they receive "protection." Protection from whom? We will stop killing you if you do as we want. Peace is achieved, and the Faith and it's leaders are brought back into the King's Peace.

7 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

We know what the Faith gave up:  the right to judge their own in their own courts and the weapons of the Faith Militant.  We know what Jaehaerys did not give up:  his marriage with his sister, the legitimacy of his children, and his family's ability to control the dragons, i.e., incest.  

But we do know that there was something else that really bothered the Faith and that would cost Jaehaerys nothing if he gave it up:  polygamy.  This is something that House Targaryen viewed as neither common nor important.  Outlawing it would go a long way toward making the Faith happy and it would cast no more doubt on Jaehaerys' own legitimacy than the Act of Settlement (prohibiting English princes and princesses from marrying Roman Catholics in the future) casts on Queen Elizabeth II's legitimacy even though she is descended from a long line of Roman Catholic monarchs.

We know what the Crown did not give up, you're right. We know they did not give up the right for Targaryens to marry within the bounds of what the Faith calls incest. How do we know this? Not because it is enumerated as something the Crown did not give up in the history of Jaehaerys settlement, but because the practice continues. Why do we know the Crown didn't give up polygamy? Because we know it was still considered as possible by Targaryens and others long after the settlement took place.

You can suggest it is possible this happened, but there is no evidence to say it did, and there is evidence to say it didn't.

You are right to say polygamy was not common among the Targaryens. There is a very good reason for that. When a king binds another family or realm to his own through marriage that confers great advantages to the family marrying into the royal household. Particularly it does so to those in line for the throne. To have the crown prince marry more than one wife both lessens the value of the marriage, and sets up uncertainty in the line of inheritance. All kings, as all lords do, value the control determining who their children will marriage as a critical part of building the alliances that maintain their rule. None of which means the Targaryens would throw away an option they had just to make the defeated Faith feel better about themselves. To the contrary, to give up such rights to a force that has risen in rebellion against you is to invite the rebellion again.

8 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

And we also know that House Targaryen steered clear of polygamy after that.  I think that if you see 2 of the first 3 kings practicing polygamy over the objection of the Faith, a reconciliation with the Faith and the establishment of a uniform code of laws for the entire country, and then no king even attempting polygamy for more than 300 years after that, that is a pretty good indication that polygamy was outlawed.

 

Only if you ignore the evidence to the contrary, and substitute a conclusion that has no evidence for it.

8 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

 

And, we have to remember that House Targaryen was not exempt from the general laws relating to marriage practices.  The Princess and the Queen explains that prior to the reign of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, first night was practiced on Dragonstone, but that the practice was banned.  Meaning that after the new law, the ruler of Dragonstone -- usually, the Crown Prince -- was forbidden from practicing first night.  During the reign of Aerys II, that ruler was Rhaegar.  So if Rhaegar had tried to practice first night, which certainly is a custom relating to marriage, he would be breaking the law -- proving that the Targaryens are not exempt from the laws relating to marriage.

All true, but it has nothing to do with polygamy. The Targaryen made this ban for their own purposes, something the Faith accepted as a normal practice. The King, could, of course, reinstate the practice if he wished, but chose not to do so. This ban was aimed at keeping the peace between lords and their sworn nobility. Not as something to keep Targaryens from sleeping with whomever they wanted.

8 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

You also have to remember that we aren't talking about a king here, we are talking about Prince Rhaegar.  There are a few examples where lesser royals asked for permission to take a second wife, but that permission was never given and no-one ever tried it without the king's permission (unlike the incestuous marriages, which were all done either with prospective or retroactive permission from the king).  That is likely because (as in medieval Europe), a prince who married without the king's permission lost his and his children's place in the succession.  So if Rhaegar did try to marry Lyanna, it likely means that Jon is a bastard (or the product of a morganatic marriage) anyway.

In the end, I think that an argument that because Targaryen princes and princesses were able to marry close relatives if they had the king's permission, that must mean that a Targaryen prince could take a second wife without the king's permission, makes little sense.

Well, we have the example of one Targaryen prince who did just that - Maegor. But I agree it is important to look at both the lack of a ban against polygamy and the specifics of who is wanting to do so in the time, place, and circumstance. Rhaegar may have done so in his preparation to set his father aside, and to take the crown from him. That changes quite a few things when discussing why he might do so when Aerys was very unlikely to approve.

8 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

ETA:  Also note that Rhaegar married Elia in a sept, so one of his vows was a vow of fidelity to her.  There is no evidence at all that Targaryens had their own special wedding vows that left out the one about monogomy.  

Actually, although we don't know the wording of the vows, we do know that Visenya preformed a Valyrian ceremony when marrying Maegor to his second wife Alys. I'm not sure there was anyone who would complain about Rhaegar not being faithful outside the Martell brothers. Elia could die with another pregnancy. So who knows what she would think. I don't know that she would demand her husband to be celibate for the rest of his life because she couldn't risk a pregnancy. What she would think of a second marriage is certainly another question than just the question of being faithful. We don't know what Elia thought.

[Lord Varys]

There is no need to assume that Jaehaerys I approved of polygamy and had any interest whatsoever to get the Faith's permission that it was suddenly legal now for himself or his descendants. Why should he? Polygamy was never legal in the first place, according to the scriptures of the Faith all faithful have to follow.

The Targaryens won their victory on the incest thing but no Targaryen king ever had any interest in making polygamy legal for his family members. Kings were always above the law or at least able to get themselves special deals from the Faith or the other religious institutions. But princes and the children of princes are not kings.

The Targaryens never cared about polygamy at all. Not even Aegon and Maegor. Aegon married Visenya to keep her dragon in the family and Maegor just wanted an heir of his own body. Neither of those men saw any merit in having more than one wife. Why on earth would Jaehaerys I not defer to the Faith in the matter of polygamy and declare that none of his successors would in future try to have more than one wife?

In addition, it is quite obvious that there was a sort of informal rule for the Targaryen kings after Viserys I that no king would ever remarry after the death of his first wife unless he was still childless. Aegon's polygamy had lead to Maegor, and Maegor and his polygamy nearly destroyed the Targaryen dynasty. And Viserys I's second marriage eventually caused the Dance, another destructive civil war. Increasing the number of heirs was never a good thing, and if a king's children were faced with a stepmother that was never good. Visenya was no good stepmother for Aenys and his children, just as Alicent Hightower was no good stepmother for Rhaenyra.

Viserys II and Maekar I lost their wives very early in life yet they never remarried. It might be that they felt no inclination to do so but it is very hard to believe that no lord never tried to offer them the hand of their sister or daughter in marriage. Both may have entertained a number of mistresses and paramours throughout their lives and reign yet none of those hypothetical women was deemed worthy enough to marry the king.

19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

No, that's not actually what conciliation means. It means to bring different parties into agreement, to eliminate hostility. It doesn't mean both sides must give up something to achieve this end. Jaehaerys is known as the "Conciliator" because he brought and end to the religious wars and brought peace to the land. The terms we know show only the Faith giving anything. The Crown agrees to be the Faith's protector. Something the Faith only needs because the Crown itself was killing the Faithful during the wars. It is the protection of a gang lord over the merchant who agrees to do what exactly the gangster wants, in exchange they receive "protection." Protection from whom? We will stop killing you if you do as we want. Peace is achieved, and the Faith and it's leaders are brought back into the King's Peace.

The Faith was already on board with dissolving the Faith Militant since the new High Septon took over during Maegor's reign. At least on paper. Defending the Faith means that the Targaryens now meet any challenges the doctrines and properties and rights the Faith has left as if the Targaryens themselves were attacked. Jaehaerys I marries the Crown to the Faith with his deal. They are essentially one now, dependent on each other. Prior to that the Faith was independent. The Targaryens needed the Faith from the start of the reign but the Faith never needed the Crown. They could defend themselves. Now they no longer could and that's why they had to marry the Crown.

19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

We know what the Crown did not give up, you're right. We know they did not give up the right for Targaryens to marry within the bounds of what the Faith calls incest. How do we know this? Not because it is enumerated as something the Crown did not give up in the history of Jaehaerys settlement, but because the practice continues. Why do we know the Crown didn't give up polygamy? Because we know it was still considered as possible by Targaryens and others long after the settlement took place.

Anything that has done at least once is possible. Even things that have never been done are theoretically possible. That doesn't mean they are legal, though. Nor does it mean anyone would accept them.

Just because some of my ancestors had multiple wives centuries ago doesn't mean I've the right to take many wives today. Not in the country I'm living right now. And it is the same with the Targaryens. A precedent means nothing if you don't have the power to enforce what you are trying to do. And Rhaegar never had that power. Not even a dragonrider like Prince Maegor or Prince Daemon had that power.

19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

You are right to say polygamy was not common among the Targaryens. There is a very good reason for that. When a king binds another family or realm to his own through marriage that confers great advantages to the family marrying into the royal household. Particularly it does so to those in line for the throne. To have the crown prince marry more than one wife both lessens the value of the marriage, and sets up uncertainty in the line of inheritance. All kings, as all lords do, value the control determining who their children will marriage as a critical part of building the alliances that maintain their rule. None of which means the Targaryens would throw away an option they had just to make the defeated Faith feel better about themselves. To the contrary, to give up such rights to a force that has risen in rebellion against you is to invite the rebellion again.

That doesn't make any sense. Jaehaerys I himself rebelled against a polygamous king, and if the Conqueror had never taken Visenya to wife, too, Maegor would not have happened and King Aenys I and Jaehaerys' elder brothers would still be alive and well. The man has no reason to defend the practice of polygamy.

19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Well, we have the example of one Targaryen prince who did just that - Maegor. But I agree it is important to look at both the lack of a ban against polygamy and the specifics of who is wanting to do so in the time, place, and circumstance. Rhaegar may have done so in his preparation to set his father aside, and to take the crown from him. That changes quite a few things when discussing why he might do so when Aerys was very unlikely to approve.

Maegor failed. He had to leave Westeros in the wake of his 'second marriage'. A marriage that was not seen as valid either by the Faith nor the king himself.

Rhaegar may have married Lyanna, but if he did there is no chance that Aerys II (still the king when he died, so Rhaegar's pipe dreams about setting him aside where just that - pipe dreams) or the High Septon, the Faith in general, the lords of the Realm, or the people of the Seven Kingdoms would accept Lyanna as Rhaegar's wife. Especially in light of the fact that Rhaegar apparently made no attempt to set Elia aside first. There were ways to get rid of a wife and take another one. You get rid of the first. You don't take two at the same time.

And that was also Maegor's intention. Maegor effectively discarded or divorced Ceryse. He separated from her and took Alys Harroway as a second wife. He did not keep Ceryse. He declared her barren. The only reason why he could not formally try to set her aside or annul the match is that she was the High Septon's own niece. That complicated things. But Maegor had no reason to keep this wife who failed to give him children.

In that sense, Prince Maegor is remarkably different from Prince Rhaegar. Elia gave Rhaegar two children, and one of those was the promised prince in his opinion. It is not very likely he wanted to discard her the way Maegor discarded Ceryse. Elia did everything Rhaegar had wanted of him. She gave him heirs.

If Rhaegar wanted Lyanna to be his legitimate wife it could only happen at the cost at casting doubts on the legitimacy of Elia's children. Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters. They shared a brother-husband and were a family even if they were rivals and later had the interests of their own sons at heart. But Elia and Lyanna were not family. They and their families would have every reason to not only hate their rivals but also the children they might have given Rhaegar. They would have all been even less a family than Alicent's and Rhaenyra's children were, never mind Alicent and Rhaenyra themselves.

19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Actually, although we don't know the wording of the vows, we do know that Visenya preformed a Valyrian ceremony when marrying Maegor to his second wife Alys. I'm not sure there was anyone who would complain about Rhaegar not being faithful outside the Martell brothers. Elia could die with another pregnancy. So who knows what she would think. I don't know that she would demand her husband to be celibate for the rest of his life because she couldn't risk a pregnancy. What she would think of a second marriage is certainly another question than just the question of being faithful. We don't know what Elia thought.

We know how the marriage vows of the Faith go, and we know that Prince Maegor was married to Ceryse Hightower in the Starry Sept of Oldtown by the High Septon himself just as Prince Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne in the Great Sept of Baelor by the High Septon himself. Both men broke their marriage vows when (or if) they made another their wife. A Valyrian ceremony is also nothing the Faith of the Andals has to accept. Especially not if there is another marriage vow done in the name of the Seven that precedes this Valyrian ceremony.

In addition, Maegor discarded Ceryse in the process of his new marriage. He did not want to keep him, unlike Rhaegar most likely would have if he married Lyanna. Maegor only really lived in bigamy after he became king when both Alys and Tyanna became his wives.

And Rhaegar had every right to sleep with his wife as often as he wanted. Aegon IV did the same. Pregnancies can kill women but that is to be expected. And if he did not want to risk that - which would be the proper thing to do - he could always take a mistress of paramour.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That is likely because (as in medieval Europe), a prince who married without the king's permission lost his and his children's place in the succession.

Nice fanfiction there but the Black Prince and Joan of Kent beg to disagree.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Nice fanfiction there but the Black Prince and Joan of Kent beg to disagree.

The Duke of Windsor and Erzherzog Franz-Ferdinand don't agree. The children of morganatic marriages have no claims. And it is up to the king or - in a constitutional monarchy - to the laws and customs of the kingdom to decide what that is.

Edward VIII had to choose between his wife and his throne. Things change there, but thankfully Westeros is still a proper monarchy where commoners cannot marry royal princes without those princes and their children losing their princely rank and status, not something as ridiculous as the British monarchy is today.

For Westeros we know that's the case as seen by the example of Duncan the Small, Prince Maegor, or Prince Daemon. Duncan was forced to abdicate, and Maegor and Daemon were exiled. Maegor illegally returned to Westeros and usurped the throne, and Daemon and Laena were forgiven and allowed to return to Westeros. Without Viserys I accepting their children into the royal family they would have had no claim to the Iron Throne whatsoever. Just as Maegor's hypothetical children with Alys would have been nothing but a footnote in history had he died in exile.

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nice fanfiction there but the Black Prince and Joan of Kent beg to disagree.

??? Ygrain, where did you get that quote? It's not something I wrote.

[Ygrain]

37 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

??? Ygrain, where did you get that quote? It's not something I wrote.

WUT? That was from Twinslayer's post, not yours! Dammit, I must have highlighted his text in your post or something like that, sorry!

[SFDanny]

 

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

WUT? That was from Twinslayer's post, not yours! Dammit, I must have highlighted his text in your post or something like that, sorry!

No problem

[SFDanny]

@Lord Varys I asked for a quote from "The Sons of the Dragon" that shows Aegon made an agreement with the Faith that his descendants would follow the teachings of the Faith in their marriage customs. Do you have it, LV?

[The Twinslayer]

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No, that's not actually what conciliation means. It means to bring different parties into agreement, to eliminate hostility. It doesn't mean both sides must give up something to achieve this end. Jaehaerys is known as the "Conciliator" because he brought and end to the religious wars and brought peace to the land. The terms we know show only the Faith giving anything. The Crown agrees to be the Faith's protector. Something the Faith only needs because the Crown itself was killing the Faithful during the wars. It is the protection of a gang lord over the merchant who agrees to do what exactly the gangster wants, in exchange they receive "protection." Protection from whom? We will stop killing you if you do as we want. Peace is achieved, and the Faith and it's leaders are brought back into the King's Peace.

We know what the Crown did not give up, you're right. We know they did not give up the right for Targaryens to marry within the bounds of what the Faith calls incest. How do we know this? Not because it is enumerated as something the Crown did not give up in the history of Jaehaerys settlement, but because the practice continues. Why do we know the Crown didn't give up polygamy? Because we know it was still considered as possible by Targaryens and others long after the settlement took place.

You can suggest it is possible this happened, but there is no evidence to say it did, and there is evidence to say it didn't.

You are right to say polygamy was not common among the Targaryens. There is a very good reason for that. When a king binds another family or realm to his own through marriage that confers great advantages to the family marrying into the royal household. Particularly it does so to those in line for the throne. To have the crown prince marry more than one wife both lessens the value of the marriage, and sets up uncertainty in the line of inheritance. All kings, as all lords do, value the control determining who their children will marriage as a critical part of building the alliances that maintain their rule. None of which means the Targaryens would throw away an option they had just to make the defeated Faith feel better about themselves. To the contrary, to give up such rights to a force that has risen in rebellion against you is to invite the rebellion again.

Only if you ignore the evidence to the contrary, and substitute a conclusion that has no evidence for it.

All true, but it has nothing to do with polygamy. The Targaryen made this ban for their own purposes, something the Faith accepted as a normal practice. The King, could, of course, reinstate the practice if he wished, but chose not to do so. This ban was aimed at keeping the peace between lords and their sworn nobility. Not as something to keep Targaryens from sleeping with whomever they wanted.

Well, we have the example of one Targaryen prince who did just that - Maegor. But I agree it is important to look at both the lack of a ban against polygamy and the specifics of who is wanting to do so in the time, place, and circumstance. Rhaegar may have done so in his preparation to set his father aside, and to take the crown from him. That changes quite a few things when discussing why he might do so when Aerys was very unlikely to approve.

Actually, although we don't know the wording of the vows, we do know that Visenya preformed a Valyrian ceremony when marrying Maegor to his second wife Alys. I'm not sure there was anyone who would complain about Rhaegar not being faithful outside the Martell brothers. Elia could die with another pregnancy. So who knows what she would think. I don't know that she would demand her husband to be celibate for the rest of his life because she couldn't risk a pregnancy. What she would think of a second marriage is certainly another question than just the question of being faithful. We don't know what Elia thought.

1.  "Conciliate."  Since GRRM is American, let's use the Webster's dictionary: (1) "to gain (something, such as goodwill) by pleasing acts; (2) to make compatible...; (3) to appease."  In order for Jaehaerys to be "the Concilator" he had to do something please the Faith.  He could not just dictate terms. 

2.  The fact that later Targaryens considered polygamy.  This is much less important than the fact that they all asked the king's permission and were refused.  Consider this:  if Roose Bolton had asked Robert's permission to practice first night and Robert refused, would that be evidence that first night was legal?  Of course not.  The same logic applies to requests to engage in polygamy.  The fact that every time we see this it is a request to the king that is refused does not imply that it is legal.  It implies precisely the opposite.  

3.  Evidence.  The evidence that polygamy was outlawed is circumstantial but it is strong. The Faith prohibits it, Jaehaerys conciliated with the Faith, and the polygamy stopped.  Anyone who wanted to do it later asked for permission from the king and the king refused.  No-one did it without the king's permission.  Robb Stark never considered it and everyone knew that when he married Jeyne he automatically broke his Frey betrothal.  Etc.  

4.  The ban on first night.  This shows that the Prince of Dragonstone was bound to the same laws as any other lord.  Of course, the king could give him an exemption (as was done for every incestuous marriage) but unless there is evidence that Rhaegar got permission from Aerys to take a second wife then doing so would very likely be illegal. 

5.  Maegor.  Maegor's actions prior to the Conciliation tell us nothing about whether polygamy was illegal after the Conciliation.  For there to be proof that polygamy was legal after the Conciliation we would need an example of a member of a royal family or noble house taking two wives during or after the reign of Jaehaerys and there being general acceptance that the children of the second wife were legitimate and could inherit.

6.  We do know some of the seven vows exchanged at a wedding in a sept and one of them is fidelity.  That vow is regularly broken (with mistresses, prostitutes, etc.) but the offspring resulting from breaking that vow is never born legitimate.   

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nice fanfiction there but the Black Prince and Joan of Kent beg to disagree.

What?  The Black Prince not only had his father's permission to marry Joan but he received a papal dispensation as well. Otherwise, their children would not have been eligible to inherit the throne. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

@Lord Varys I asked for a quote from "The Sons of the Dragon" that shows Aegon made an agreement with the Faith that his descendants would follow the teachings of the Faith in their marriage customs. Do you have it, LV?

'The Sons of the Dragon' has a rather long paragraph how Aegon behaved towards the Faith in the aftermath of the Conquest and it is pretty clear that his sons were both raised in the ways of the Faith. They were knighted, married in septs, etc. Maegor was even married to Ceryse Hightower in the Starry Sept of Oldtown by the High Septon himself. He made a solemn promise there which he later broke.

Maegor and Rhaegar are not comparable to Aegon since Aegon took his sisters to wife as a sovereign monarch in his own Dragonstonian kingdom. Nobody had jurisdiction over him there. But Prince Maegor (and even King Maegor) had taken a vow in a sept to be faithful to his wife Ceryse Hightower and he broke that vow when he married Alys Harroway (and later Tyanna of the Tower).

[Ygrain]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

@Lord Varys I asked for a quote from "The Sons of the Dragon" that shows Aegon made an agreement with the Faith that his descendants would follow the teachings of the Faith in their marriage customs. Do you have it, LV?

'The Sons of the Dragon' has a rather long paragraph how Aegon behaved towards the Faith in the aftermath of the Conquest and it is pretty clear that his sons were both raised in the ways of the Faith. They were knighted, married in septs, etc. Maegor was even married to Ceryse Hightower in the Starry Sept of Oldtown by the High Septon himself. He made a solemn promise there which he later broke.

Maegor and Rhaegar are not comparable to Aegon since Aegon took his sisters to wife as a sovereign monarch in his own Dragonstonian kingdom. Nobody had jurisdiction over him there. But Prince Maegor (and even King Maegor) had taken a vow in a sept to be faithful to his wife Ceryse Hightower and he broke that vow when he married Alys Harroway (and later Tyanna of the Tower).

 

Long story short: no, he has no such quote, and he's trying to cover it up with a wall of text. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Long story short: no, he has no such quote, and he's trying to cover it up with a wall of text. 

Wait and read. Assuming you buy 'The Book of Swords'.

[Sea Dragon]

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

'The Sons of the Dragon' has a rather long paragraph how Aegon behaved towards the Faith in the aftermath of the Conquest and it is pretty clear that his sons were both raised in the ways of the Faith. They were knighted, married in septs, etc. Maegor was even married to Ceryse Hightower in the Starry Sept of Oldtown by the High Septon himself. He made a solemn promise there which he later broke.

Maegor and Rhaegar are not comparable to Aegon since Aegon took his sisters to wife as a sovereign monarch in his own Dragonstonian kingdom. Nobody had jurisdiction over him there. But Prince Maegor (and even King Maegor) had taken a vow in a sept to be faithful to his wife Ceryse Hightower and he broke that vow when he married Alys Harroway (and later Tyanna of the Tower).

Wow! Did I somehow miss the release of this book? I was so excited to hear about this several months ago but I didn't realize it had been released yet. I love the Targaryens and I still need to read the big World book (summertime with no classes) and I will head to Amazon now to buy this one.

[SFDanny]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Wait and read. Assuming you buy 'The Book of Swords'.

You know I will my friend. We disagree on this, and have now for awhile. We can go around a few more times on this, but I don't see the evidence to say what your take on this is real. I see the evidence supporting the view I have shown.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

'The Sons of the Dragon' has a rather long paragraph how Aegon behaved towards the Faith in the aftermath of the Conquest and it is pretty clear that his sons were both raised in the ways of the Faith. They were knighted, married in septs, etc. Maegor was even married to Ceryse Hightower in the Starry Sept of Oldtown by the High Septon himself. He made a solemn promise there which he later broke.

Once again, not only do we have no evidence that Aegon made a pact with the Faith to do away with polygamy and incest, but the actions of both sons show clearly they did not see themselves or their children (in Aenys case) as bound by the Faith's rules.

I'd suggest, that for those who practice polygamy, it isn't being unfaithful to take a second wife.

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Maegor and Rhaegar are not comparable to Aegon since Aegon took his sisters to wife as a sovereign monarch in his own Dragonstonian kingdom. Nobody had jurisdiction over him there. But Prince Maegor (and even King Maegor) had taken a vow in a sept to be faithful to his wife Ceryse Hightower and he broke that vow when he married Alys Harroway (and later Tyanna of the Tower).

Let's not mix up the question of the king's right to determine who his children marry with a ban on polygamy. That no king after Maegor engaged in polygamy and no king gave is assent to such a marriage is not in any way the same as a ban. If you want a similar situation to Aegon and Maegor one has to look to Daenerys to see if she takes Ser Jorah's advice. Rhaegar's situation is closer to Maegor's when he first takes a second wife. It is likely Aerys would have reacted negatively to such a unapproved marriage, just as Aenys did. But that doesn't mean either king banned the practice or that Rhaegar could not have married Lyanna without setting aside Elia.

[SFDanny]

19 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Wow! Did I somehow miss the release of this book? I was so excited to hear about this several months ago but I didn't realize it had been released yet. I love the Targaryens and I still need to read the big World book (summertime with no classes) and I will head to Amazon now to buy this one.

It's not released yet. It's set to be released in October. @Lord Varys has been at a reading of some version of the text, and very kindly has written that up for a post here. Until the Book of Swords is published, his post is the only available look at the material. 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I'd suggest, that for those who practice polygamy, it isn't being unfaithful to take a second wife.

This. 

And there is some historical precedent for kings doing polygamy to the consternation of the church. A Merovingian or two in the sixth century took more than one wife, and caught tons of shit from their bishops. But Merovingians were particularly powerful at the time, and so gave zero fucks. It's more about power than anything else. 

Where history can't help us figuring out Rhaegar. No one tried to marry two wives since, so there The George would be making it up. And in that case, it will be whatever he wants. He can make up laws, precedents, and justifications either way, if he cares to. My guess would be that Rhaegar was planning on being King soon, so could do the same thing, with the popular support of forcing an evil lunatic to abdicate.