Damsel in Distress

Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

471 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You apply for the privilege and hope you are accepted.  If you're not, well, you won't have to worry about putting in an unemployment claim.  

That is not always the case. You can be rejected and live, like Alyn Velaryon was. Or some of the guys trying to mount Silverwing at Tumbleton. 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not always the case. You can be rejected and live, like Alyn Velaryon was. Or some of the guys trying to mount Silverwing at Tumbleton. 

True, but you would be submitting a disability or worker's comp.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't happen. Men claim dragons, not the other way around. The dragons just accept a rider ... or they don't.

 

35 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You apply for the privilege and hope you are accepted.  If you're not, well, you won't have to worry about putting in an unemployment claim.  

 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not always the case. You can be rejected and live, like Alyn Velaryon was. Or some of the guys trying to mount Silverwing at Tumbleton. 

 

28 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

True, but you would be submitting a disability or worker's comp.

Widow maker has the right of it, LV. Even in the Pit with Dany, her shouts, and use of the whip are only good to get Drogon to pay attention, not to tame him. Dragons are not tamed to a rider like some wild west cowboy breaking a wild horse to his will. Or to mangle another metaphor and paraphrase Harry Potter's wand maker, "the wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter." Only this wand will likely eat you if it doesn't choose you.

edit: now I will give you this, LV. Jon may well be different than most candidates for the job of dragon rider. We have never seen what happens when a person with the skin changing ability Jon has presents himself or herself for a dragon to choose. Perhaps Jon can slip his skin and control a dragon. That would be a first, as far as we know.

My guess is that Jon would be foolish to attempt it. We see with Varamyr that he can control beasts, but part of them always want to rebel and kill him. Would a Dragon's reaction be more like that, than simple submission? I'd guess so. I think the old tradition of the Targaryens to give their children eggs to sleep with has something to do with getting the dragon to accept the child from its hatching. Much like the choosing of the dire wolf pups to each Stark forms a bond between child and pup. The "warging" connection develops over time, not in the Starks forcing the wolf into submission like Varamyr does.

Edited by SFDanny

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5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Widow maker has the right of it, LV. Even in the Pit with Dany, her shouts, and use of the whip are only good to get Drogon to pay attention, not to tame him. Dragons are not tamed to a rider like some wild west cowboy breaking a wild horse to his will. Or to mangle another metaphor and paraphrase Harry Potter's wand maker, "the wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter." Only this wand will likely eat you if it doesn't choose you.

I never said that a whip is all it takes to tame a dragon. Far from it. You need to have special blood. A magic in your blood, however it works in details. But it is not Drogon who chose Daenerys. It is Daenerys who chose Drogon. She could have chosen any of her three dragons. But she chose Drogon. And Drogon nearly killed her. There is no hint he wanted to be claimed by her. If Dany hadn't jumped on his back he would have either killed her or flown away without her.

Dragons are wild animals, not pets (or magical tools). If they are not forced to hang out with you via magic they will kill or eat you.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

edit: now I will give you this, LV. Jon may well be different than most candidates for the job of dragon rider. We have never seen what happens when a person with the skin changing ability Jon has presents himself or herself for a dragon to choose. Perhaps Jon can slip his skin and control a dragon. That would be a first, as far as we know.

Yeah, that could work. And if he does that there is no hint that Dany or anyone has to believe he is Rhaegar's son because he claims a dragonrider. It could just be part of his skinchanger powers.

My point is that Daenerys (or whoever is going to accept Jon's identity as a Targaryen descendant) needs a good reason to actually want to believe that or support his claim that he is Rhaegar's son. Jon becoming a dragonrider could make her and quite a few people believe that he has Targaryen or Valyrian ancestors, but it is not going to be proof that he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna. Just as Aegon claiming a dragon (if he does that eventually) is not going to be proof that he is Rhaegar's son by Elia.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

My guess is that Jon would be foolish to attempt it. We see with Varamyr that he can control beasts, but part of them always want to rebel and kill him. Would a Dragon's reaction be more like that, than simple submission? I'd guess so. I think the old tradition of the Targaryens to give their children eggs to sleep with has something to do with getting the dragon to accept the child from its hatching. Much like the choosing of the dire wolf pups to each Stark forms a bond between child and pup. The "warging" connection develops over time, not in the Starks forcing the wolf into submission like Varamyr does.

There has to be an explanation why the Children and the First Men did not use dragons as weapons via skinchanging. My guess is that a dragons mind *burns too hot* for a normal skinchanger to control it. I could see skinchangers interfering with the bond between dragon and rider but I doubt they can really control them. If they did the First Men would have been crushed by the Children. A single dragon controlled by a skinchanger could have killed thousands or tens of thousands of First Men, and apparently there were more than just one dragon in Westeros back in the Dawn Age.

The whole dragon egg thing is not necessary to claim a dragon. That is just a practice the Targaryens later adopted. Aegon, Visenya, Rhaenys, Maegor, Helaena, Aemond, and the dragonseeds all claimed dragons without bonding with them in advance. And Aenys shows that you can bond with a hatchling easily enough without handling its egg before.

Dany sort of bonded with all her three dragons but she can only mount one dragon. And it happened that this dragon is Drogon, the one she was always closest to.

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On June 6, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Lord Varys said:

It will come out in October. George has read from at a couple of times, usually only covering the youth of Aegon's sons and the reign of King Aenys. The reign of Maegor was not covered. Our only source for that is TWoIaF and a two page unedited excerpt from TSotD from a very early sample page.

Wow. Yeah, I confirmed that the other day. Also, that is a pretty mean and unfair thing to do by trying to quote unpublished material as truth just yet. But like I mentioned before, I will get to reading the big World book soon because I did order that one. 

 

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1 minute ago, Sea Dragon said:

Wow. Yeah, I confirmed that the other day. Also, that is a pretty mean and unfair thing to do by trying to quote unpublished material as truth just yet. But like I mentioned before, I will get to reading the big World book soon because I did order that one. 

That is why I try not to do that. But we are talking here about TSotD since the first reading George gave of that story years ago. Information about it has been out there ever since.

Have fun with TWoIaF.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is why I try not to do that. But we are talking here about TSotD since the first reading George gave of that story years ago. Information about it has been out there ever since.

Have fun with TWoIaF.

Is that reading out there somewhere? I never heard that one. 

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6 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Is that reading out there somewhere? I never heard that one. 

Those are my notes from the LonCon reading. Full of typos due to typing on a tablet but it was fun:

I've elaborated on some details later on but most of the material is to be found in there and in the other reports in the same thread.

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I don't think bonding a dragon is the same as skin changing a wolf.  For one thing, the person who wargs the wolf slowly becomes more wolf mentally and the wolf sort of becomes more human.  Cross contamination of the minds.  As the thread on "Stark Savages" points out, the Stark children who warg their wolves are getting more and more savage.  They're losing parts of their humanity. 

The Targaryens who had dragons were not the ones who went nuts.  *It was the ones who lacked dragons that went off track.  The dragon bond doesn't change the human nor does it change the dragon.  The dragon remains capable of making its own decisions as do the human. 

*I don't think Maegor was crazy.  He was just an entitled dude who was pissed at the faith because they won't let him have his way.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is why I try not to do that. But we are talking here about TSotD since the first reading George gave of that story years ago. Information about it has been out there ever since.

Have fun with TWoIaF.

What @Lord Varys has done here with "The Sons of the Dragon" is part of a long tradition of fans reporting from Martin's readings. He has done a fantastic job in sharing his notes with information starved readers. Any disagreements I may have with his views on the meaning of what is going on here should absolutely not be interpreted as a criticism of the great contribution he has made by letting us see this material.

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13 hours ago, Holley 4 Barrel said:

I don't think bonding a dragon is the same as skin changing a wolf.  For one thing, the person who wargs the wolf slowly becomes more wolf mentally and the wolf sort of becomes more human.  Cross contamination of the minds.  As the thread on "Stark Savages" points out, the Stark children who warg their wolves are getting more and more savage.  They're losing parts of their humanity.

The Targaryens also may have lost parts of their humanity. After all, they are 'the blood of the dragon'. But if they have it is a different thing than the consequences and effects of the spirit-merging of the skinchangers. That seems to have the potential to have much worse consequences than dragonriding.

13 hours ago, Holley 4 Barrel said:

The Targaryens who had dragons were not the ones who went nuts.  *It was the ones who lacked dragons that went off track.  The dragon bond doesn't change the human nor does it change the dragon.  The dragon remains capable of making its own decisions as do the human. 

*I don't think Maegor was crazy.  He was just an entitled dude who was pissed at the faith because they won't let him have his way.

The special part of the dragonriding thing is that it is an exclusive marriage. There is no polygamy possible there. A dragon and its rider bond for life. You can only claim a new dragon if your dragon is dead and a dragon can only bond with a new rider if the rider is dead.

We don't have a precedent for the former but quite a few for the latter. But the former is very much implied by the fact that George himself has said that Viserys I chose not to claim a new dragon after Balerion's death. That means he could have done that.

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