Damsel in Distress

Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

505 posts in this topic

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 1:53 AM, Lord Varys said:

It is established in the books that Bran cannot have children. And that he'll never become a lord was clear from the start. The Northmen follow strong leaders, not cripples. The Greatjon nearly killed Robb, and quite a few Northmen made it very clear that they despise Bran for what he is.

Established by who?

Did they establish he could never ride a horse at the same time? Modern Dr with their fancy scans can be wrong when it comes to back injuries, who is to say time or technology will not change things, it's not like a 7 year old will be able to find out if his tackle still works for a good few years.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/14/2017 at 4:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

Why should anyone ask Jon to be the regent for Rickon? That's not a position you hand to a man who could use the power coming with it to usurp the throne/lordship - which a Stark bastard easily could. 

Such an office would go to one of the people who are involved in this Stark restoration plot - and those are Manderlys, Robett Glover, Davos, and perhaps even other people in White Harbor, but not Jon Snow.

The Northmen are not going to give such an office to a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. The very thought of that is ridiculous. That would go against everything they believe in and stand for. Against every tradition that's upheld in the North.

That is not what George said recently. He himself connected Beric-Catelyn to Jon's resurrection and referred to them as foreshadowing for Jon's return. He is not going to get a normal breathing body. It will be the same kind of body they have. His spirit might be less damaged than theirs because it was 'saved' in Ghost but his body is not going to get off the hook.

And why should it? If it did then there would be no point to the entire death-and-resurrection plot. That's going to be play an important role in his story, and not in this fairy-tale dream quest setting you seem to want to read but rather to set him up as the ultimate hero and sacrifice. He is going to play the crucial role in defeating the Others. And that's going to be his final death. There is no way around that. Not after he was killed. 

I respect your take, but I don't agree with you.  I think Jon's death and resurrection, while sharing some similarities with Cat's and Beric's, will be vastly different.  I think he'll be much more like a normal human than either one of them is and I think he will go on to function as a normal human would.  I also expect him to be King in the North, King of Westeros, or both.  He's not going to die to defeat the Others IMO.

Edited by acwill07

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4 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Established by who?

Did they establish he could never ride a horse at the same time? Modern Dr with their fancy scans can be wrong when it comes to back injuries, who is to say time or technology will not change things, it's not like a 7 year old will be able to find out if his tackle still works for a good few years.

Established by Ned. And, you know, the real world fact that people with a broken spine usually no longer can have children. See here. George apparently does his research before he breaks people's spines.

And that's the best reason why Brandon Stark is never going to be Lord of Winterfell. He cannot continue the line. Not to mention that a greenseer should have other priorities, too. I mean, why on earth should he spend his life with ridiculous administrative duties? Bran does fly now, but he'll never walk again. And that means he will also never have any children. Bloodraven also never got his eye back, by the way.

4 hours ago, acwill07 said:

I respect your take, but I don't agree with you.  I think Jon's death and resurrection, while sharing some similarities with Cat's and Beric's, will be vastly different.  I think he'll be much more like a normal human than either one of them is and I think he will go on to function as a normal human would.  I also expect him to be King in the North, King of Westeros, or both.  He's not going to die to defeat the Others IMO.

Then why is he already dead? Why did George kill him? What is the point of that? This is not some illness you can recover from or some predicament you can overcome. Tyrion murdered his father but he still could become Lord of Casterly Rock under certain circumstances. Jon was once with the wildlings but he could return and be forgiven by the Night's Watch. How is being dead and returning to life going to help him be a king?

But a man who died is never going to be the same again. And the last thing such a guy is set up for is to spent decades of his life with tax policies or toll collecting, or bettering the lives of some peasants. He is completely beyond that kind of thing.

And that goes for every character who is killed and then resurrected, not just Beric, Catelyn, and Jon but also Daenerys, Tyrion, Stannis, you name them. If any of these people truly died and returned from death their point in the story would no longer to conquer some throne and then sit on it. They would have a much greater destiny.

I'm not sure if Melisandre died and was resurrected, too - but it is not all that unlikely considering her strange body. If she was then she is another perfect example for this. She doesn't give shit about who sits some throne. She fights a completely different battle.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Established by Ned. And, you know, the real world fact that people with a broken spine usually no longer can have children. See here. George apparently does his research before he breaks people's spines.

And that's the best reason why Brandon Stark is never going to be Lord of Winterfell. He cannot continue the line. Not to mention that a greenseer should have other priorities, too. I mean, why on earth should he spend his life with ridiculous administrative duties? Bran does fly now, but he'll never walk again. And that means he will also never have any children. Bloodraven also never got his eye back, by the way.

Then why is he already dead? Why did George kill him? What is the point of that? This is not some illness you can recover from or some predicament you can overcome. Tyrion murdered his father but he still could become Lord of Casterly Rock under certain circumstances. Jon was once with the wildlings but he could return and be forgiven by the Night's Watch. How is being dead and returning to life going to help him be a king?

But a man who died is never going to be the same again. And the last thing such a guy is set up for is to spent decades of his life with tax policies or toll collecting, or bettering the lives of some peasants. He is completely beyond that kind of thing.

And that goes for every character who is killed and then resurrected, not just Beric, Catelyn, and Jon but also Daenerys, Tyrion, Stannis, you name them. If any of these people truly died and returned from death their point in the story would no longer to conquer some throne and then sit on it. They would have a much greater destiny.

I'm not sure if Melisandre died and was resurrected, too - but it is not all that unlikely considering her strange body. If she was then she is another perfect example for this. She doesn't give shit about who sits some throne. She fights a completely different battle.

I just don't think that Jon dying means it's a foregone conclusion that his destiny is to sacrifice himself for the realm.  As for the NIght's Watch, I fully expect that he will consider his Watch ended once he wakes up.....being killed by your own brothers will sour anyone to the cause, and Jon's vow only lasts "until his death."

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32 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

I just don't think that Jon dying means it's a foregone conclusion that his destiny is to sacrifice himself for the realm.  As for the NIght's Watch, I fully expect that he will consider his Watch ended once he wakes up.....being killed by your own brothers will sour anyone to the cause, and Jon's vow only lasts "until his death."

But isn't that going to mean that he no longer has any reason to care about fighting the Others? Or is he going to cherry-pick? Fighting the Others is a good and noble calling but keeping the vow I swore not so much. He would look like an asshole. The people knowing that he died and was resurrected might actually accept that to a point. Although they would then also have no reason to follow him, right? At least not the Watchmen.

But those for whom this whole thing will just be hearsay will see him as an oathbreaker and turncloak, intending to kill him for his crimes should they capture him. Beric rose from the dead six times but that doesn't mean Westeros at large believes that happened. Considering how remote the Wall is nobody in the Realm but the people at Castle Black should believe the resurrection story in Jon's case. And thus they won't see him exactly as a guy whose actions are justified.

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