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devilish

Dorne could have easily swung the war of 5 kings to anti Lannister supporter favour.

62 posts in this topic

I don't get it, what's in it for the Martells by doing what the OP says? They basically hand in Dorne and the Iron Throne to the Tyrells of all people, and all they get in return is a sexually unfulfilling marriage for Arianne? That's it? 

There's two scenarios I could see Doran using the Wot5K to get what he wants: 

1) If Doran wants the jackpot (the Iron Throne): 

AFTER Renly's death. Pull a Tywin. March to King's Landing offering his help. Hope Cersei/Tyrion are scared of Stannis enough to let him in. Sack the city. Kill every Lannister. Here he has 2 choices, depending on the outcome of the battle:

  • IF the Tyrell-Lannister alliance defeated Stannis but fell apart once Joffrey et al got killed: persuade the Tyrells to join the Martells on a coup. Result: King Quentyn/Trystane and Queen Margaery. 
  • IF Stannis won the battle but ended up in bad shape: Send Stannis to kick rocks. Close the city gates. Declare Myrcella queen and marry her to Trystane. Send envoys to the Reach, offering Arianne's hand in marriage. Contact Robb and Edmure, allow them to remain semi-independent. Basically get allies to get rid of Stannis. Result: King Trystane and Queen Myrcella.
  • IF Stannis won a decisive victory and remains strong: Open the city gates. Gratefully present him with the corpses of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella, wrapped in Martell-orange cloaks. Get him to marry Trystane to Shireen. Result: King Trystane and Queen Shireen. 

2) If Doran settles for a consolation prize:

BEFORE Renly's death. Attack King's Landing. Kill Lannisters, etc. Assume Renly is gonna get off his ass then and come to the city. Graciously open the city gates for Renly and the Tyrells. Hand over the Iron Throne. Ask for two things in return: Casterly Rock, and one Tywin-sized oubliette in its dungeon. 

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1 hour ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

I don't get it, what's in it for the Martells by doing what the OP says? They basically hand in Dorne and the Iron Throne to the Tyrells of all people, and all they get in return is a sexually unfulfilling marriage for Arianne? That's it? 

There's two scenarios I could see Doran using the Wot5K to get what he wants: 

1) If Doran wants the jackpot (the Iron Throne): 

 

Doran definitely does not want the Iron Throne for himself. The marriage proposals to Viserys/Daenerys/Aegon are opportunistic, but also a way to make sure he's permanently allied to (and therefore protected by) the cause he's already risking everything to support.

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17 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Doran definitely does not want the Iron Throne for himself. The marriage proposals to Viserys/Daenerys/Aegon are opportunistic, but also a way to make sure he's permanently allied to (and therefore protected by) the cause he's already risking everything to support.

I disagree. If that's all he wanted why not join Stannis or Renly? The reason he's waited so long to make his move is because he's got his eyes on the prize. If you think about it, he'd be reclaiming what Tywin took away from him: a Martell consort on the Iron Throne. 

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5 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

I disagree. If that's all he wanted why not join Stannis or Renly? The reason he's waited so long to make his move is because he's got his eyes on the prize. If you think about it, he'd be reclaiming what Tywin took away from him: a Martell consort on the Iron Throne. 

As a few of the others have said, the Baratheon usurpation is built on a foundation of Martell blood, which makes both Baratheons less-than-savory choices for Doran. I think the bigger issue, though, is Doran's fundamentally timid and risk-averse nature. He doesn't want to take this kind of risk for an unworthy usurper who could fall anytime: he wants to be wedded to the only family to ever unite all Westeros, and which ruled them for over a century without the aid of a single dragon.

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3 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

As a few of the others have said, the Baratheon usurpation is built on a foundation of Martell blood, which makes both Baratheons less-than-savory choices for Doran. I think the bigger issue, though, is Doran's fundamentally timid and risk-averse nature. He doesn't want to take this kind of risk for an unworthy usurper who could fall anytime: he wants to be wedded to the only family to ever unite all Westeros, and which ruled them for over a century without the aid of a single dragon.

The Targaryens made their last stand on Martell blood. Rhaegar humiliated Elia in front of the entire realm and then Aerys kept her hostage and left her to the mercy of Tywin. They're just as complicit in Elia's death as the Baratheons, if not more. Yet Doran's got no qualms in aiding that failed regime. 

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13 hours ago, devilish said:

What do you think?

the author had specific plans for Ned and Robb dying and the lannisters coming to power so there could be an interfamily conflict with them. So nothing dorne could have ever done could/would have made any difference 

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41 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

The Targaryens made their last stand on Martell blood.

True, and if they hadn't been killed almost to a man and hunted across Westeros, Doran might have felt differently.

41 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

Rhaegar humiliated Elia in front of the entire realm and then Aerys kept her hostage and left her to the mercy of Tywin

Aerys was a well-known madman. What's Robert and Tywin's excuse?

41 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

They're just as complicit in Elia's death as the Baratheons, if not more. Yet Doran's got no qualms in aiding that failed regime. 

It's not just no qualms. The text makes it pretty clear he doesn't hold the Targaryens responsible for what happened, given that he started plotting with them - and no other faction - immediately. You don't have to hold the Targaryen dynasty in high regard here, but it seems like Doran does.

If I've given offense by pointing out that the Baratheon throne is more unstable than the Targaryen one, I apologize - but from Doran's perspective, there's no reason to believe the Baratheons as a royal dynasty will last, especially since they pretty much immediately fall into a rut and their founding monarch chose to actually de-emphasize the only link to the throne besides pure force. Generally speaking, "might makes right" creates unstable regimes. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a man like Doran might have noticed this about the Baratheons and prefer the Targaryen track record instead.

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1 hour ago, velo-knight said:

True, and if they hadn't been killed almost to a man and hunted across Westeros, Doran might have felt differently.

Aerys was a well-known madman. What's Robert and Tywin's excuse?

It's not just no qualms. The text makes it pretty clear he doesn't hold the Targaryens responsible for what happened, given that he started plotting with them - and no other faction - immediately. You don't have to hold the Targaryen dynasty in high regard here, but it seems like Doran does.

If I've given offense by pointing out that the Baratheon throne is more unstable than the Targaryen one, I apologize - but from Doran's perspective, there's no reason to believe the Baratheons as a royal dynasty will last, especially since they pretty much immediately fall into a rut and their founding monarch chose to actually de-emphasize the only link to the throne besides pure force. Generally speaking, "might makes right" creates unstable regimes. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a man like Doran might have noticed this about the Baratheons and prefer the Targaryen track record instead.

I just don't think there's a lot of difference between say, Viserys and Dany, and Renly. He was just a kid during the rebellion, he can't be held accountable for Robert's or Tywin's crimes. He hated the Lannisters probably just as much as Doran, and he seemed to have a cordial enough relationship with the Martells. If Doran isn't really after the throne per se but wants a solid marriage to the royal family as you said, then supporting Renly would've made a lot of sense.

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43 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

I just don't think there's a lot of difference between say, Viserys and Dany, and Renly. He was just a kid during the rebellion, he can't be held accountable for Robert's or Tywin's crimes.

As others have said, it's not about accountability - it's about the fact that the Baratheon kings will never, can't ever, say: "hey, the events that founded our dynasty were horrible and criminal". It's why big Western countries are so terrible about properly apologizing for the enslavement, murder, and theft our wealth and nations were built on: because the minute you admit to stealing something, or to killing people while taking something, people naturally start asking if they can have it back; or if not; a substitute. No monarchic dynasty is ever going to deliberately deligitimize itself, and so the Baratheon Kings are always inferior from a "getting justice for Elia" perspective. 

To put it another way, Renly is wholly innocent of Elia's murder, but in becoming King as an heir to Robert, he still profits from it. Dany and Viserys would not be profiting from the murder in the same way if they were restored to power, which makes them attractive to Doran.

43 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

He hated the Lannisters probably just as much as Doran, and he seemed to have a cordial enough relationship with the Martells. If Doran isn't really after the throne per se but wants a solid marriage to the royal family as you said, then supporting Renly would've made a lot of sense.

I agree a temporary alliance would've been wise, but I still think Doran would be smarter to cut out the middleman and take his revenge himself. Then, he can pretend to be on the side of whichever claimant to the throne ultimately prevails - so long as it's not the Lannister faction. A marriage alliance to Renly is a mistake, because Renly's government is built on a very weak and narrow foundation, and Doran knows this.

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11 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Not good enough. They are after all basing their claims from Robert (and one of them even state that he is that he is the true predecessor). And using Roberts claim mean that you will be held responsible for his policies, in the same way they can´t, like Daenerys or Aegon can, ignore those debts Robert took in his name.. So Renly and Stannis need to do more than say "we didn´t do it".

To take the dornish negotiating position, if anyone of you two become king - will you officialy apologize for your brothers action and made it clear to everyone that what Robert did was wrong. Will you also admit that by refusing to punish the Lannister, Robert took said crime upon himself and that this act has stained not only him but his house as well. Further, will you recompense house Martell for said stain commited by house Baratheon in land, titles, status (which will take the shape in permanent councillors during your reign) and money and finally, will you allow house Martell to dispense justice over the Lannisters in any way they see fit regardless of any and all objections others might have about this (As in, if house Martell want to flay Joffrey alive and have Cersei gang raped then that is exactly what will happen).

Any other response than Yes on all these questions means Doran won´t be interested.

You’re making it sound as if the Targs love the Martells and that evil Robert stripped Westeros house from this benevolent house. It is really not the case. The Martells suffered decades of war and tyranny because they refused to bend the knee. Their cities and castles were burned into ashes, armies were sent to invade the land and thousands of people died because of it.

Aerys forced Rhaegar to marry Elia just to piss Tywin Lannister off. He racially insulted Elia’s daughter and he threatened to hurt the the Princess and her children unless Dorne helped them keep the darn place. Not to forget, that Rhaegar first humiliated Elia at Harrenhal only to betray her with Lyanna Stark later on. In many ways Elia is as much of a victim as Robert is.

I don’t think that the Martells hate Robert or his claim to the crown at all. Robert did, what Aegon did before him, ie an invasion by conquest something they see as flawed but something they learnt to live with. They hate Robert because the Lannisters were rewarded despite committing hideous crimes. The Martells are no strangers to war and the unconventional ways to win it. However the buck stops when innocent people are involved and Elia + her children were innocent.

Renly was just a baby stag when Robert’s rebellion started. He had nothing to do with it at all. Actually he was the one who worked behind the shadows to remove Cersei from queen and appoint Margaery instead.

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6 hours ago, velo-knight said:

True, and if they hadn't been killed almost to a man and hunted across Westeros, Doran might have felt differently.

Aerys was a well-known madman. What's Robert and Tywin's excuse?

 

What's Rhaegar's excuse?

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9 hours ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

I don't get it, what's in it for the Martells by doing what the OP says? They basically hand in Dorne and the Iron Throne to the Tyrells of all people, and all they get in return is a sexually unfulfilling marriage for Arianne? That's it? 

There's two scenarios I could see Doran using the Wot5K to get what he wants: 

1) If Doran wants the jackpot (the Iron Throne): 

AFTER Renly's death. Pull a Tywin. March to King's Landing offering his help. Hope Cersei/Tyrion are scared of Stannis enough to let him in. Sack the city. Kill every Lannister. Here he has 2 choices, depending on the outcome of the battle:

  • IF the Tyrell-Lannister alliance defeated Stannis but fell apart once Joffrey et al got killed: persuade the Tyrells to join the Martells on a coup. Result: King Quentyn/Trystane and Queen Margaery. 
  • IF Stannis won the battle but ended up in bad shape: Send Stannis to kick rocks. Close the city gates. Declare Myrcella queen and marry her to Trystane. Send envoys to the Reach, offering Arianne's hand in marriage. Contact Robb and Edmure, allow them to remain semi-independent. Basically get allies to get rid of Stannis. Result: King Trystane and Queen Myrcella.
  • IF Stannis won a decisive victory and remains strong: Open the city gates. Gratefully present him with the corpses of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella, wrapped in Martell-orange cloaks. Get him to marry Trystane to Shireen. Result: King Trystane and Queen Shireen. 

2) If Doran settles for a consolation prize:

BEFORE Renly's death. Attack King's Landing. Kill Lannisters, etc. Assume Renly is gonna get off his ass then and come to the city. Graciously open the city gates for Renly and the Tyrells. Hand over the Iron Throne. Ask for two things in return: Casterly Rock, and one Tywin-sized oubliette in its dungeon. 

A- Dorne doesn't have enough troops to go toe to toe against the Lannisters let alone eye for the IT
B- Doran won't be handling Dorne to anybody. Arianne would marry Loras in a matriarchal marriage. Her children will be Martells.  No one said that Robb handled the North to the Westerlings, when he married Jeyne

What they get in return is

A- Their revenge for Elia's murder
B- An improved relationship with a powerful neighbour
C- A son in law who happens to be the king's best friend and the queen's sister
D- If Renly dies, they would be in a position (in terms of negotiation with the Tyrell family) to pave the way for Danny

What they got in the current timeline was

A- Oberyn death while defending a Lannister in a trial by combat
B- Quentyn burning into ashes while trying to tame a dragon
C- A disfigured Myrcella 
 

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4 hours ago, devilish said:

What's Rhaegar's excuse?

Doran doesn't seem to care, which is the issue at hand. Perhaps he knows something we don't, or perhaps he thinks that, not knowing all the facts, he's not in a position to judge. Doran's been plotting to put the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne for over a decade, I don't think it should be controversial to note that Renly and Stannis could not be anything better than temporary allies to him.

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1 minute ago, velo-knight said:

Doran doesn't seem to care, which is the issue at hand. Perhaps he knows something we don't, or perhaps he thinks that, not knowing all the facts, he's not in a position to judge. Doran's been plotting to put the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne for over a decade, I don't think it should be controversial to note that Renly and Stannis could not be anything better than temporary allies to him.

I think Doran is not very bright tbh. All his plans had brought more misery to the Martells.

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Just now, devilish said:

I think Doran is not very bright tbh. All his plans had brought more misery to the Martells.

I'm willing to critique the man's strategy, but not to spin a "what if" where he's a totally different person. It may bother some that he doesn't hate the Targaryens - but that's the author's and the character's prerogative.

I also would rather this not become a debate on the relative complicity of Rhaegar vs Aerys vs Brandon vs Varys in starting the War. Whatever else we can say about House Targaryen, they most certainly didn't profit from it, and I believe that makes the Baratheons totally unacceptable to Doran. Baratheons generations later would be innocent of the crime, but still profit from it, and justice for Elia would slip ever further away.

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5 hours ago, devilish said:

You’re making it sound as if the Targs love the Martells and that evil Robert stripped Westeros house from this benevolent house. It is really not the case. The Martells suffered decades of war and tyranny because they refused to bend the knee. Their cities and castles were burned into ashes, armies were sent to invade the land and thousands of people died because of it.

 

Aerys forced Rhaegar to marry Elia just to piss Tywin Lannister off. He racially insulted Elia’s daughter and he threatened to hurt the the Princess and her children unless Dorne helped them keep the darn place. Not to forget, that Rhaegar first humiliated Elia at Harrenhal only to betray her with Lyanna Stark later on. In many ways Elia is as much of a victim as Robert is.

 

I don’t think that the Martells hate Robert or his claim to the crown at all. Robert did, what Aegon did before him, ie an invasion by conquest something they see as flawed but something they learnt to live with. They hate Robert because the Lannisters were rewarded despite committing hideous crimes. The Martells are no strangers to war and the unconventional ways to win it. However the buck stops when innocent people are involved and Elia + her children were innocent.

 

Renly was just a baby stag when Robert’s rebellion started. He had nothing to do with it at all. Actually he was the one who worked behind the shadows to remove Cersei from queen and appoint Margaery instead.

 

Seriously? You don´t see the red line between "Now we start a rebellion against the crown" and "oh, these people that Doran cares about are now dead". Of course Martells hate Robert, the rebellion and the new dynasty since the suffered hard from it. Now, if Elia and her children hadn´t been brutally executed the situation might have been different, but the were. On Lannister orders. And pardoned and rewarded on Baratheon command. Whatever issue they had with Aerys sort of became less relevant after that, since that dynasty certainly got punished for their mistakes (And murder of family members do trumph insults). Who cares if they hated Roberts claim or not or if they wanted Aerys punished - Roberts dynasty led to the death of Elia and her children and the Lannister pardon. Period. And that will reflect in the demands the dornish will make, something you are stubbingly refusing to grasp. What you seemingly not get is that Dorne doesn´t really get their revenge at all in your scenario, but because of the current war might get a option to settle scores (but only with some of the guilty). They will only get their justice because the Lannisters are the current enemy and that the new leadership (Renly most likely) allow them to be punished. But, are they really beeing punished for what they did to Elia (with Roberts support) or are they being punished because they are the losers in this war? Hence the importance of forcing Renly to condem Robert. And as Velo-knight explained - "No monarchic dynasty is ever going to deliberately deligitimize itself ". But that is exactly what they need to do to make such an alliance work. And you fail to see the real issue here, focusing on some consolation prizes Dorne might get in order to falsely point out that that would be a really good idea for them to work with Renly. 

You are overall making it sound as Doran has no rational argument to hold the Barathon dynasty responsible for the killings and that the offer and benefits he might get more than enough compensates for their history. Nothing could be further from the truth. Also, it doesn´t matter how evil the Targs might or might not be or how their history with Dorne is. It´s not relevant for this discussion. What is, is that Doran and Dorne have ample cause to feel disappointed in Robert and will of course know, before backing any other Baratheon, that there is a similiar view, a shared intersubjective reality. As for the historical angle, it is just that - history. Nothing more. 

To put it into context, its like you robbed me of 10 bucks and then later your son come to me and say "Listen, Protagoras - I need your help. I know you were not happy about those 5 bucks my father sort of borrowed from you, but I will give it back to you if you help me out". First, it was 10 bucks. Secondly, you are not paying up what you owe but demand more favors for giving me something that was my right in the first place. Thirdly, you are going to tell the world what swine your father was and how wrong he was by doing so. He didn´t borrow them, he stole them. And tat should be seen as truth by everyone. 

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1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Seriously? You don´t see the red line between "Now we start a rebellion against the crown" and "oh, these people that Doran cares about are now dead". Of course Martells hate Robert, the rebellion and the new dynasty since the suffered hard from it. Now, if Elia and her children hadn´t been brutally executed the situation might have been different, but the were. On Lannister orders. And pardoned and rewarded on Baratheon command. Whatever issue they had with Aerys sort of became less relevant after that, since that dynasty certainly got punished for their mistakes (And murder of family members do trumph insults). Who cares if they hated Roberts claim or not or if they wanted Aerys punished - Roberts dynasty led to the death of Elia and her children and the Lannister pardon. Period. And that will reflect in the demands the dornish will make, something you are stubbingly refusing to grasp. What you seemingly not get is that Dorne doesn´t really get their revenge at all in your scenario, but because of the current war might get a option to settle scores (but only with some of the guilty). They will only get their justice because the Lannisters are the current enemy and that the new leadership (Renly most likely) allow them to be punished. But, are they really beeing punished for what they did to Elia (with Roberts support) or are they being punished because they are the losers in this war? Hence the importance of forcing Renly to condem Robert. And as Velo-knight explained - "No monarchic dynasty is ever going to deliberately deligitimize itself ". But that is exactly what they need to do to make such an alliance work. And you fail to see the real issue here, focusing on some consolation prizes Dorne might get in order to falsely point out that that would be a really good idea for them to work with Renly. 

You are overall making it sound as Doran has no rational argument to hold the Barathon dynasty responsible for the killings and that the offer and benefits he might get more than enough compensates for their history. Nothing could be further from the truth. Also, it doesn´t matter how evil the Targs might or might not be or how their history with Dorne is. It´s not relevant for this discussion. What is, is that Doran and Dorne have ample cause to feel disappointed in Robert and will of course know, before backing any other Baratheon, that there is a similiar view, a shared intersubjective reality. As for the historical angle, it is just that - history. Nothing more. 

To put it into context, its like you robbed me of 10 bucks and then later your son come to me and say "Listen, Protagoras - I need your help. I know you were not happy about those 5 bucks my father sort of borrowed from you, but I will give it back to you if you help me out". First, it was 10 bucks. Secondly, you are not paying up what you owe but demand more favors for giving me something that was my right in the first place. Thirdly, you are going to tell the world what swine your father was and how wrong he was by doing so. He didn´t borrow them, he stole them. And tat should be seen as truth by everyone. 

The rebellion started when Aerys ordered Jon Arryn to bring him Ned’s and Robert’s heads on spikes.  Surely you can’t blame Robert for rebelling instead of willingly removing his head and handle it back to the mad king can you?  Not only that, but throughout the revolt, Robert was nothing but a gentleman, fighting his foe on battlefield and sharing pints of beer with them once they bent the knee. He was certainly better than the Targ dynasty who were busy kidnapping women, threatening and insulting loyal subjects + trying to kill LPs and Wardens like flies. 


The KL massacre was Tywin Lannister’s doing. The man had stayed neutral throughout the entire war only to get his hands dirty when the war was over. He marched to KL without Robert’s or anybody’s consent and certainly not with Baratheon’s interest in mind. If Aegon had to suffer an accident/be persuaded to take the black then Rhaenyrs would have inherited the IT. That could have pave the way to a marriage between Robert and her, giving him more legitimacy over the crown in the same way Argella Durrandon did with Robert’s ancestor.  Tywin wanted to strip that option from Robert’s hands.
Robert’s only crime was to reward Tywin for such hideous deed rather than punishing him. It is one thing killing your enemy in battlefield and its another killing innocent women and children in their own bed chamber. Elia was a victim just like Robert was and unlike Robert she wasn’t able to defend herself. 


That was a mistake that he ended up paying for with his own life and a mistake that neither Stannis nor Renly has to pay for. The latter is even more innocent then the former since he was a baby back then and since he grew old, he’s been working to get rid of that viper once and for all. If Doran held Renly in ill account then he would be a big hypocrite since Renly was a child during the war, just as Elia’s children were. Can you  blame Aegon and Rhaenys of their father’s crime? No. Same thing.

Now back to the practical thing. Doran doesn't have the men to bring justice to Elia's murder let alone have a Martell sitting on the IT.  His only hope is to work with others to strengthen his family's position and get the revenge he wanted. Of course he can alternatively stay idle while his best general dies defending a Lannister and his son is burnt to death trying to tame a dragon. 

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9 minutes ago, devilish said:

The rebellion started when Aerys ordered Jon Arryn to bring him Ned’s and Robert’s heads on spikes.  Surely you can’t blame Robert for rebelling instead of willingly removing his head and handle it back to the mad king can you?  Not only that, but throughout the revolt, Robert was nothing but a gentleman, fighting his foe on battlefield and sharing pints of beer with them once they bent the knee. He was certainly better than the Targ dynasty who were busy kidnapping women, threatening and insulting loyal subjects + trying to kill LPs and Wardens like flies. 

Of course he can. And he will blame the victor, since the loser will be dead and gone. If aerys had won and Elia died then he certainly would have blamed Aerys and the Targs. That Robert was "better" has no bearing whatsoever. Those people are still dead. 

9 minutes ago, devilish said:


The KL massacre was Tywin Lannister’s doing. The man had stayed neutral throughout the entire war only to get his hands dirty when the war was over. He marched to KL without Robert’s or anybody’s consent and certainly not with Baratheon’s interest in mind. If Aegon had to suffer an accident/be persuaded to take the black then Rhaenyrs would have inherited the IT. That could have pave the way to a marriage between Robert and her, giving him more legitimacy over the crown in the same way Argella Durrandon did with Robert’s ancestor.  Tywin wanted to strip that option from Robert’s hands.
Robert’s only crime was to reward Tywin for such hideous deed rather than punishing him. It is one thing killing your enemy in battlefield and its another killing innocent women and children in their own bed chamber. Elia was a victim just like Robert was and unlike Robert she wasn’t able to defend herself. 

And by doing such a crime to reward Tywin means that the KL massacre is now Robert Baratheons doing, not Tywins. He acknowledged it and rewarded it. The responsibility is therefore in his hands. In our world, if a murderer is not sent to jail because a judge refuses to do so then that judge is responsible for denying that family the murderer murdered justice and has by ignoring justice absolved the blame himself.

Tywins action has been officially been OKed by the state. This is huge. 

9 minutes ago, devilish said:


That was a mistake that he ended up paying for with his own life and a mistake that neither Stannis nor Renly has to pay for. The latter is even more innocent then the former since he was a baby back then and since he grew old, he’s been working to get rid of that viper once and for all. If Doran held Renly in ill account then he would be a big hypocrite since Renly was a child during the war, just as Elia’s children were. Can you  blame Aegon and Rhaenys of their father’s crime? No. Same thing.

They don´t have to pay for it, but they must acknowledge it has existed if they want a working relation. No one say Renly should be blamed as a person for Roberts choices. However, he would be forced to condem Roberts action if this deal takes place. For comparison, there are indeed plenty of people on these forum that think Daenerys should stop calling Ned a usurper´s dog (which he is btw). And in that case you have no reason why she should, because the lack of agreement between her and the Starks. In this Baratheon--Martell case it is a requirment. Do you think Daenerys and the Starks can come to terms if Daenerys still insist on using said term? No they certainly will not. 

9 minutes ago, devilish said:

Now back to the practical thing. Doran doesn't have the men to bring justice to Elia's murder let alone have a Martell sitting on the IT.  His only hope is to work with others to strengthen his family's position and get the revenge he wanted. Of course he can alternatively stay idle while his best general dies defending a Lannister and his son is burnt to death trying to tame a dragon. 

Well, it is a matter of principle. People have those. Doran want justice uncorrupted by Baratheon hands. Or Baratheon hands willing to call what has happen with words Doran can accept. You still havn´t commented on if you think Renly would accept the terms I previously outlined but I think we both know the answer. 

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23 minutes ago, devilish said:

The rebellion started when Aerys ordered Jon Arryn to bring him Ned’s and Robert’s heads on spikes.  Surely you can’t blame Robert for rebelling instead of willingly removing his head and handle it back to the mad king can you?

There were other paths for the Rebellion to have taken, which Doran might have liked more.

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

 Not only that, but throughout the revolt, Robert was nothing but a gentleman, fighting his foe on battlefield and sharing pints of beer with them once they bent the knee. He was certainly better than the Targ dynasty who were busy kidnapping women, threatening and insulting loyal subjects + trying to kill LPs and Wardens like flies. 

You might think feel that way, but we don't know that Doran does, and if anything he's likely to have better information than us. In any case, none of this is going to be comforting to the man whose sister was brutally raped and murdered alongside her children.

23 minutes ago, devilish said:


The KL massacre was Tywin Lannister’s doing. The man had stayed neutral throughout the entire war only to get his hands dirty when the war was over. He marched to KL without Robert’s or anybody’s consent and certainly not with Baratheon’s interest in mind. If Aegon had to suffer an accident/be persuaded to take the black then Rhaenyrs would have inherited the IT. That could have pave the way to a marriage between Robert and her, giving him more legitimacy over the crown in the same way Argella Durrandon did with Robert’s ancestor.  Tywin wanted to strip that option from Robert’s hands.
Robert’s only crime was to reward Tywin for such hideous deed rather than punishing him. It is one thing killing your enemy in battlefield and its another killing innocent women and children in their own bed chamber. Elia was a victim just like Robert was and unlike Robert she wasn’t able to defend herself. 

I'm sure this is also very comforting. Robert "only" rewarded Tywin by marrying his daughter, giving him enormous influence and power, and ensuring that Tywin's own grandson would sit the throne.

23 minutes ago, devilish said:


That was a mistake that he ended up paying for with his own life and a mistake that neither Stannis nor Renly has to pay for. The latter is even more innocent then the former since he was a baby back then and since he grew old, he’s been working to get rid of that viper once and for all. If Doran held Renly in ill account then he would be a big hypocrite since Renly was a child during the war, just as Elia’s children were. Can you  blame Aegon and Rhaenys of their father’s crime? No. Same thing.

It's not about blame, it's about justice. Renly and Stannis are seeking to inherit something that innately was built on the blood and suffering of Doran's family. They didn't have anything to do with it, but they can't fully repudiate it, either. That makes them his enemies. The Targaryens, on the other hand, are fellow victims and will be more than happy to give him justice, vengeance, and to publicly and frequently mention the savagery and evilness of the Sack - which makes them his friends.

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

Now back to the practical thing. Doran doesn't have the men to bring justice to Elia's murder let alone have a Martell sitting on the IT.  His only hope is to work with others to strengthen his family's position and get the revenge he wanted. Of course he can alternatively stay idle while his best general dies defending a Lannister and his son is burnt to death trying to tame a dragon. 

Yes, he did. He had more men than Stannis when Stannis set sail for Storm's End in Clash, and at that time Cersei was rightly worried that Stannis might land, take King's Landing, and orchestrate a coup before Tywin could reinforce. Doran did have the men to take the city, nobody said he needed to hold it. His mistake was in not recognizing the chance he had, and the precariousness of Tywin's position in early Clash.

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19 hours ago, velo-knight said:

Why? This is my big critique of Doran's strategy: I think he was in a position to pull a Balon Greyjoy (minus independence bid) and have it actually work out. All he'd be doing is declaring who he's against, and he only has to do that once his forces are at / through the gates. Instead he spends his time trying to figure out which horse to back, instead of just shooting the horse he wants to lose.

I think you're forgetting. It's Tywin he wants to punish. Think Sun Tzu. Why ruin the house of Lannister? Why not just remove the people who he specifically wants to punish. The Lannister's are a powerful house, and there is no reason to cross a potential ally to the crown off the list.

Besides, the Lannister's represented such a significant portion of Joffrey's strength, "shooting their horse," would have been so decisive, it would have put someone on the Throne.

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Then I think there's a tension in Doran's objectives: revenge, or a Targaryen restoration?

Please elaborate as to why these two things are mutually exclusive?

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Tell that to Quentyn.

I don't think that's really responsive to what we're talking about. I would consider that more of a fluke, rather than assign Quentyn's death to a failure in Doran's plans.

I mean that Dorne is doing fine in respect to their ability to have a decicive presence on the battlefield and in the midst of war.

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