Free folk Daemon

Do you think Aeron Greyjoy is the valonqar?

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Do you think Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy could be the valonqar? 'The Forsaken' chapter GRRM read from The Winds of Winter with its description of Aeron's visions, including Euron Greyjoy sitting on the Iron Throne and

'Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…'

has led to speculation that Cersei Lannister will ally or even marry Euron and she is the female figure the shadow in Aeron's shade of the evening-induced vision represents...

Looking back at a quote in AFFC about part of Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cersei,

'And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.'

I put the words that stood out to me thinking about this in bold. Cersei's tears will have drowned her, like the Ironborn's religious initiation. The shadow in woman's form is described as tall, we know she can be terrible, and I believe Cersei is described as tall somewhere in the books (can anyone help me find this?) and the shadow's hands are 'alive with pale white fire', a fire described the same way as Cersei's throat (pale white) in the prophecy.

I believe Aeron, and not Victarion or Daenerys, will kill Euron in revenge for his sexual molestation by Euron as child, that suffered by his late brother Urrigon, the murders of family members by Euron including Balon and some of his brothers and all of the other torments Euron has inflicted on his family and particularly Aeron. Could Aeron also be the valonqar ("little brother") prophesized to kill Cersei?

He would have to somehow escape being lashed to the prow of the Silence, for starters.

I have heard a theory that the shadow in woman's form could be Shiera Seastar, though I don't know the detail of it to speculate on that theory.

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No. It will be one of her actual brothers, most likely Jaime.

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Interesting idea but why would Arron want to kill Cersei?

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Posted (edited)

On 3/20/2017 at 3:08 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

I believe Cersei is described as tall somewhere in the books (can anyone help me find this?)

Sorry, but she is never described as tall.  Jaime is, but she isn't.  As far as I know her height is not mentioned, which would imply that she is of average height.

On 3/20/2017 at 3:08 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

'Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…'

has led to speculation that Cersei Lannister will ally or even marry Euron and she is the female figure the shadow in Aeron's shade of the evening-induced vision represents...

I don't understand why that would lead to speculation that Cersei and Euron would ally.  I'm sorry I don't see any connection.  

If you're looking for a description of someone who fits, this is Melisandre:

Quote

Even her eyes were red . . . but her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream. Slender she was, graceful, taller than most knights, with full breasts and narrow waist and a heart-shaped face. Men's eyes that once found her did not quickly look away, not even a maester's eyes. Many called her beautiful. She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red.--A Clash of Kings - Prologue

I'm not saying that it is Melisandre in Aeron's dream, but at least she fits the description.  Plus it uses "shadow" and "fire" in the WoW passage.

Edited by Wolf of the Steppes
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Or ... Aeron has no knowledge of what Danny looks like, knows Euron plans on wedding her, and in his drug induced stupor imagines what the mother of dragons would look like.

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where would be the point of Aeron being the Valonqar? he and Cersei have no connection at all. For Cersei it would be like "oh, some Greyjoy is now killing me" - does not make any sense.

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On 23/03/2017 at 0:15 AM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Interesting idea but why would Arron want to kill Cersei?

My idea would be that Euron and Cersei ally, and to stop them he would kill her as well as Euron

On 25/03/2017 at 0:56 PM, shadows and dust said:

Or ... Aeron has no knowledge of what Danny looks like, knows Euron plans on wedding her, and in his drug induced stupor imagines what the mother of dragons would look like.

That said, I do think the above may also be likely. GRRM loves to mix prophecy with characters' own perspectives of things, and Danaerys is associated with fire and white with her silver-gold hair.

On 21/03/2017 at 4:33 PM, shadows and dust said:

No. It will be one of her actual brothers, most likely Jaime.

I'm not sure it will be Jaime or Tyrion, as this would be too obvious, though I suppose it would make more narrative sense than Aeron killing Cersei by extension of stopping Euron (if the Crow's Eye and Cersei ally)...

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no one's mentioning the biggest clue supporting the op's idea: the dwarves engaged in some kind of humiliating and sadistic entertainment.

and I know we're not supposed to mix book and show stuff (though I've never understood why, or how we are supposed to ignore things that happen in the show that may shed light on what's going to happen in the books) but, my wife said she heard something to the effect that cersei and euron will hook up/marry this season.

 

yes, I know euron supposedly has sent victarion to bring back Dany for Euron, but we know to a near certainty it's not going to play out that way. so if euron uses marriage to make an alliance, cersei's the obvious - really the only - candidate, since euron has already attacked the reach (presumably eliminating the other candidate, Margery Tyrell. not only is there no female character in the north and the riverlands who provides a good candidate, but those are much more the ironborn's traditional enemies and victims and less likely to be interested or desirable as alliance partners.

OTOH the other clues and the general vibe seem to fit Melisandre much better. and if she gets banished from the wall as in (sorry) the show, euron, as a kind of magic-using, semi-sorcerer-king, seems a good candidate for a place for her to land.

 

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3 hours ago, Brother Seamus said:

and I know we're not supposed to mix book and show stuff (though I've never understood why, or how we are supposed to ignore things

I did not read the rest of your post......The reason is because NOT EVERYBODY WATCHES THE SHOW!!!!!!  How hard is it to understand that?  Personally, I don't want to know about a single thing that is going on in the show.  Talking about it in a book forum is essentially a  SPOILER for those who don't care for or don't watch the show.  Now.............please don't ever talk about the show in a book forum.

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I believe that the prophecy that Cersei heard, must refer to a little brother of Cersei, not someone else's little brother. Therefore it must be either Jaime or Tyrion - and since she is convinced it must be Tyrion, whom she knows has many reasons for grudge against her, it will come as a surprise to her when it is Jaime, whom she still believes loves her... but he does not, he burned the last message from her and she does not know that he did so. Jaime qualifies because, having come out second, he is technically Cersei's junior by a few seconds or minutes, and therefore qualifies as a "little brother": and because he is increasingly seeing the ruin that has been made of the realm by Cersei's policies and her mad obsession with holding on to power in the name of her own children that have no right to it because they are Jaime's bastards: he is the one having the "was all this really worth it" thoughts, just as Cersei is going full-on Mad Queen and he hasn't *yet* heard the worst of it.

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Posted (edited)

On ‎23‎.‎03‎.‎2017 at 7:09 PM, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Sorry, but she is never described as tall.  Jaime is, but she isn't.  As far as I know her height is not mentioned, which would imply that she is of average height.

I think the fact that her height isn't mentioned means that Jaime and Cersei are of the same height. It is mentioned that they were very much alike, especially when they were younger. Sometimes she would even wear his clothes, and pretend to be him. 

On ‎25‎.‎03‎.‎2017 at 3:44 PM, Túrin the Turambar said:

where would be the point of Aeron being the Valonqar? he and Cersei have no connection at all. For Cersei it would be like "oh, some Greyjoy is now killing me" - does not make any sense.

The point would be that Cersei would not expect it. She may realize someday that Jaime fits the description of valonqar as well as Tyrion does. She'd never expect that the valonqar might not be related to her at all - it would be the ultimate proof that she's not the center of the universe. Of course, if Cersei marries Euron, Aeron and Cersei would be connected, would become brother and sister.

On ‎23‎.‎03‎.‎2017 at 1:15 AM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Interesting idea but why would Arron want to kill Cersei?

Aeron knows what Euron has done, what Euron can and will do. I think he might kill Cersei out of mercy. There were eery vibes of compassion emanating from him in his sample chapter when he dealt with his brother's stupid lover, Falia. He might also do it to cheat Euron out of another royal sacrifice.

That said, I don't see why Euron would want to marry Cersei. (I am not sure that the woman in the vision is actually tall - the shadow in woman's form is long and tall. And try as I might - I don't see Cersei's shadow as long and tall. Hers is rather short.) 

So I am back to Jaime, and Tyrion. To little Tommen. And, assuming valonqar is gender neutral, Arya - who is still holding on to her grudge against Cersei.

 

Edited by Tini

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, JLE said:

I believe that the prophecy that Cersei heard, must refer to a little brother of Cersei, not someone else's little brother. Therefore it must be either Jaime or Tyrion - and since she is convinced it must be Tyrion, whom she knows has many reasons for grudge against her, it will come as a surprise to her when it is Jaime, whom she still believes loves her... but he does not, he burned the last message from her and she does not know that he did so. Jaime qualifies because, having come out second, he is technically Cersei's junior by a few seconds or minutes, and therefore qualifies as a "little brother": and because he is increasingly seeing the ruin that has been made of the realm by Cersei's policies and her mad obsession with holding on to power in the name of her own children that have no right to it because they are Jaime's bastards: he is the one having the "was all this really worth it" thoughts, just as Cersei is going full-on Mad Queen and he hasn't *yet* heard the worst of it.

Why must it refer to her own brothers? Maggy the Frog doesn't say "your valonqar will kill you". She says "the valonqar will kill you". Right after she says "when your tears have drowned you....". As I see it, this leaves room for interpretation. 

And Maggy doesn't speak of a valonqar, either. She speaks of the valonqar. Cersei has two younger brothers, but for Maggy there is only one. So either the valonqar is uniquely determined by his action. Or there will be only one younger brother left by the time the prophesy comes true. Something that obviously never occurred to Cersei - if she kills one of her brothers, the other one will be the only valonqar she has left.

Aeron is already Euron's only surviving brother. Tommen is Joffrey's and Myrcella's only younger brother. And Arya - could assume the shape of the younger brother, whoever he is.

Edited by Tini

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On 27.3.2017 at 8:13 PM, Wolf of the Steppes said:

I did not read the rest of your post......The reason is because NOT EVERYBODY WATCHES THE SHOW!!!!!!  How hard is it to understand that?  Personally, I don't want to know about a single thing that is going on in the show.  Talking about it in a book forum is essentially a  SPOILER for those who don't care for or don't watch the show.  Now.............please don't ever talk about the show in a book forum.

I am new here in the forum, and I read that show-spoilers are forbidden in the book-part of this forum. But I have a serious question about it in general:

I assume that although not everyone watches the show here, a huge majority watches it. While I understand that those who don't watches the show, don't want to get spoiled, I don't understand how the other people who do, can actually participate on most of the threads here? It seems pretty ridiculous to me to discuss a theory and act as it is a possibility while you allready know the answer. Ok, some things may differ in the books, but still, there are hundreds of questions that have already been answered. Even if they differ, a certain outcomme to a certain direction is inevitable. That seems as lying to yourself on purpose. I try to explain it differently, if it does not seem clear what I mean: Imagine you would today argue if Donald Trump could become President of the United States with people, lets say in the Amazonas Jungle, who have no Internet or TV or whatsoever and have no Information to the outside world. You know it happend, but you can not use arguements from the outside. While for these people in the said jungle, it is fun to argue, I don't see any sense for the outsider to participate on the said discussion. I can not argue about a theory, where I know the answer.

I read a lot of threads here, but I could not participate on most of them. So what do you other fellas do? 

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1 hour ago, Dragonsbone said:

I am new here in the forum, and I read that show-spoilers are forbidden in the book-part of this forum. But I have a serious question about it in general:

I assume that although not everyone watches the show here, a huge majority watches it. While I understand that those who don't watches the show, don't want to get spoiled, I don't understand how the other people who do, can actually participate on most of the threads here? It seems pretty ridiculous to me to discuss a theory and act as it is a possibility while you allready know the answer. Ok, some things may differ in the books, but still, there are hundreds of questions that have already been answered. Even if they differ, a certain outcomme to a certain direction is inevitable. That seems as lying to yourself on purpose. I try to explain it differently, if it does not seem clear what I mean: Imagine you would today argue if Donald Trump could become President of the United States with people, lets say in the Amazonas Jungle, who have no Internet or TV or whatsoever and have no Information to the outside world. You know it happend, but you can not use arguements from the outside. While for these people in the said jungle, it is fun to argue, I don't see any sense for the outsider to participate on the said discussion. I can not argue about a theory, where I know the answer.

I read a lot of threads here, but I could not participate on most of them. So what do you other fellas do? 

I do understand your point and realize that your position is difficult when participating in this forum.  I thank you for refraining from commenting if you fear that you would let something slip.

I think that where you are getting confused is that you believe the show is canon. It is most certainly not.  I know from previous seasons when I did watch, there were MANY things that happened in the show that did not or could never happen in the books (and vice versa). 

Just look on these forums and see the hundreds of different theories about what will happen.  At this point in the books, the possibilities are almost endless.  Will the show and the books end up the same way?  I would say more or less based on what info GRRM shared with D&D.....BUT, how they get to that ending can be vastly different.

I think that for me, the way the books get there will be way more enjoyable than the show and that is why I don't watch.  I know that doesn't answer your question, and I know you weren't addressing me directly.  Thank you for being respectful, but please don't take the show as canon.......it's not.

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51 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

I do understand your point and realize that your position is difficult when participating in this forum.  I thank you for refraining from commenting if you fear that you would let something slip.

I think that where you are getting confused is that you believe the show is canon. It is most certainly not.  I know from previous seasons when I did watch, there were MANY things that happened in the show that did not or could never happen in the books (and vice versa). 

Just look on these forums and see the hundreds of different theories about what will happen.  At this point in the books, the possibilities are almost endless.  Will the show and the books end up the same way?  I would say more or less based on what info GRRM shared with D&D.....BUT, how they get to that ending can be vastly different.

I think that for me, the way the books get there will be way more enjoyable than the show and that is why I don't watch.  I know that doesn't answer your question, and I know you weren't addressing me directly.  Thank you for being respectful, but please don't take the show as canon.......it's not.

First I want to thank you for your reply, I was indeed not adressing you. I just found that your comment fitted to my question :D

And this is what I don't get. If someone says the show is not cannon, why bother about the show at all? If someone does not watch the show because he or she thinks that nothing of it will happen in the books, since it is not cannon, then it is no spoiler for that particular person. 

A rather rational aproach is to accept that it is cannon in this forum as you just indirectly pointed out "Will the show and the books end up the same way?  I would say more or less based on what info GRRM shared with D&D". Then of course everything from the show is a spoiler. But then again, how should I participate on the book-forum if I believe that what has happend in the show will happen in the books? Do you understand what I mean? No matter what opinion you have about the show, you will automatically contradict yourself in this part of the forum....It is irrelevant what opinion you have.

But that is something I have to deal by my self I guess. Anyway thank you very much for your kind answer. 

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Posted (edited)

On 3/27/2017 at 8:22 PM, JLE said:

I believe that the prophecy that Cersei heard, must refer to a little brother of Cersei, not someone else's little brother. Therefore it must be either Jaime or Tyrion - and since she is convinced it must be Tyrion, whom she knows has many reasons for grudge against her, it will come as a surprise to her when it is Jaime, whom she still believes loves her... but he does not, he burned the last message from her and she does not know that he did so. Jaime qualifies because, having come out second, he is technically Cersei's junior by a few seconds or minutes, and therefore qualifies as a "little brother": and because he is increasingly seeing the ruin that has been made of the realm by Cersei's policies and her mad obsession with holding on to power in the name of her own children that have no right to it because they are Jaime's bastards: he is the one having the "was all this really worth it" thoughts, just as Cersei is going full-on Mad Queen and he hasn't *yet* heard the worst of it.

The prophecy said the valonqar, not your valonqar. It could technically be anyone that is a younger brother. I think Jaime has abandoned his sister and Tyrion won't get the chance to kill her. GRRM hardly ever gives his characters that satisfaction.

If it does turn out to be Jaime, then I think it would happen at Casterly Rock. The prophecy also says Cersei will lose all that she has before dying. And there was that line of dialogue between Jaime and Cat where he says "maybe I'll show you the dungeons of Casterly Rock someday."

Edited by PCK

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Posted (edited)

It's not far-fetched at all. Cersei does need ships after Aurane took off with the royal fleet. Who else hates dwarfs so much? Also, is Euron the type who would actually tell Victarion his plan? Daenerys could just be a smoke screen.

Edited by PCK

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3 hours ago, PCK said:

The prophecy said the valonqar, not your valonqar. It could technically be anyone that is a younger brother. 

Rickon=valonqar Confirmed!

 

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7 hours ago, PCK said:

The prophecy said the valonqar, not your valonqar. It could technically be anyone that is a younger brother. I think Jaime has abandoned his sister and Tyrion won't get the chance to kill her. GRRM hardly ever gives his characters that satisfaction.

but ASOIAF is not about "technicalities" - it is about a story that makes sense, and about "the human heart in conflict with itself".
and, many forget this, the story is not about shocking us - the readers. GRRM never introduced shock moments for the shock's sake. they have to make sense - and the valonqar being anyone but Jaime (or Tyrion) would not make sense, because it wouldn't add anything to Cersei's story.

the Valonqar-prophecy is about Cersei getting it wrong, fuelling her hatred on Tyrion and turning a blind eye to Jaime. and about Jaime who will finally kill his sister whom he loved since childhood. and it is about the "legacy" of Tywin crushing down, because his children tear themselves apart, while Ned Stark's children standing together when Winter finally comes.

maybe that's too obvious for some. but it's also an emotionally satisfying end to Cersei's story. and that would certainly not be the case if anyone but Jaime finally kills her. and I truely believe that GRRM wants to write stories that make sense, and not make twists for the twists' sake.

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7 hours ago, Túrin the Turambar said:

snip

Yep. It's too obvious for those of us spending a decade discussing every written line. Everything cannot be a misdirection. Prophecy is not legal jargon or tax code ripe for loopholes. It's about self-fulfilling actions, paranoia, and misinterpretation.

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