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Pivotal Characters and Choice


300 H&H Magnum

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I posted the following theory one month ago.

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I am working on my own interpretation of these visions.  I have read the explanations presented here and elsewhere but I am not in agreement with all of them.  Additional materials have come to light in the form of "The World of Ice and Fire" as well as several preview chapters from "The Winds of Winter".  I want to tackle two of the topics from the visions this evening.

The naked lady sprawled on the floor being savaged by the rat-faced dwarfs.  The most common interpretation is that she represents Westeros and the rats are Robb, Balon, Joffrey, and Stannis.  Those four are indeed rats but the dwarfs do not represent them. The woman is not Westeros.  The vision is literal.   I believe this is a vision of a human sacrifice. 

The Cup of Fire and the Cup of Ice.  One of the big mistakes is thinking Dany and Jon are parallel characters.  I do not believe this.  It is Dany and Bran who are parallel.  Dany drank from the Cup of Fire, the mind trip drink given to her outside the Palace of Dust.  Bran drinks from the Cup of Ice three books later when he ate the weirwood paste.  Both saw visions after taking the drug.  The visions came in reverse chronological order.  Dany saw a woman she did not recognize offered for sacrifice.  Bran saw a captive being bled and killed in front of Winterfell's heart tree.   The meaning is direct.  The sorcerers of Qarth practice human sacrifice and feed their servitors on human flesh.  Bran's ancestors practiced human sacrifice and fed the trees with human flesh.  We also learned from Nan that the White walkers fed their wights human flesh and they saved the "maids" (virgins) for their own use.  The White walkers hunted these maids for sport.  We do not yet know what they did with the bodies of these girls afterwards.  The sorcerers of Qarth tried to trick Dany and trap her within.  She outsmarted them and got out of the trap.  The Children of the Forest and Bloodraven seems to me are doing the same thing to Bran. 

The White walkers are weak to obsidian.  This same mineral was used by the Aztecs to cut the flesh of their human sacrifice.  Maybe Mr. Martin got the idea of using obsidian as a weapon from reading history.  Obsidian was used on spear points. 

I appreciate the people who took enough interest to comment last month.  The cups of fire and the cups of ice are important because they are sources of information for two of the pivotal characters.  Lady Dustin's topic of Bran vs. Jaime encouraged me to continue this discussion.  Just who are the pivotal characters in this story?  The ones who move the plot for both good and bad.  George Martin likes to take the reader on a journey within the person to witness the conflict taking place in the human heart.  This basically limits the pivotal characters to POV characters.  The reader only gets under the skin of a POV character.  That means interesting non-POV characters like Roose, Jorah, Daario, Missandei, Hizdarh, and Gendry are not pivotal.  The pivotal character will need to be someone who has a conscience and a sense of responsibility; otherwise there will be no internal conflict.  People like Ramsay, Bron, Cersei, and Euron are not going to have an internal conflict because they basically look out for #1 only.  Extreme people like Lady Stoneheart, Gregor Clegane, Arya, and Ramsay are ruled out because they are not interested in the good of the realm.  The pivotal character will be heavily invested in a cause, family, ideology, or goal.  That interest will conflict with saving the realm of Westeros.  The pivotal character will have to choose and Mr. Martin will not make it easy.  Okay this narrows down the list.

  1. Daenerys Targaryen.  Saving Westeros versus Ending the slave trade.  Martin has proven in A Storm of Swords and A Dance with Dragons that this young lady is willing to set aside her personal ambitions in order to help bring freedom to slaves.  What if the stakes in the west is elevated up so instead of just the attraction of taking back her kingdom the situation becomes saving the kingdom from the White Walkers? 
  2. Jon Snow.  Saving Westeros versus Saving Arya.  Jon loves Arya more than he loves anyone.  He loves the Starks more than his dedication to his duties.  This will rub some of you the wrong way but I believe this conflict has already played itself out.  In A Dance with Dragons, Jon chose Arya over protecting the greater good for the realm.  I read a comment once that said Jon may no longer have a POV in the future novels.  That would confirm my theory that his own conflict has been settled and he chose badly.  His role will be diminished from this point forward. 
  3. Bran Stark.  Saving Westeros versus Saving Meera and Hodor.  Jaime may also find himself on Bran's balance scales like Lady Dustin wrote in her topic.  Martin chose to take everything away from Bran but gave him Meera and Hodor in return.  I foresee Bran having to choose how to use his power:  save a lot of lives or save two dear friends.  I look forward to reading how Bran will resolve this dilemma.  His conflict has potential to involve even Arya.  Does Bran stop his murderous sister to serve the greater need for the greater good or let her continue killing? 
  4. Tyrion Lannister.  I don't think this is about Tasha.  Tyrion loves Jaime.  Saving Westeros versus Saving Jaime.  Peace with the north will be critical to unite the realm.  Jaime's maiming of Bran will have to be resolved for peace talks with Winterfell to continue.  Tyrion may have to sit in judgment of Jaime, with Bran pulling the hidden strings.
  5. Samwell Tarly.  Saving Westeros versus Gilley.  I read a theory that I liked a lot.  That Samwell may discover how to make Valyrian steel.  The price will be Gilley's life.  This is a real love story in the books and if there is a parallel to the making of Valyrian steel in the current time, this is it.  Samwell is not AA but he is in a position to learn the making of Valyrian steel.

It will be George Martin's style to wrote the story so that some will choose badly.  Tell who you think will choose badly and why. 

Thanks

 

 

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10 hours ago, 300 H&H Mag said:

I posted the following theory one month ago.

I appreciate the people who took enough interest to comment last month.  The cups of fire and the cups of ice are important because they are sources of information for two of the pivotal characters.  Lady Dustin's topic of Bran vs. Jaime encouraged me to continue this discussion.  Just who are the pivotal characters in this story?  The ones who move the plot for both good and bad.  George Martin likes to take the reader on a journey within the person to witness the conflict taking place in the human heart.  This basically limits the pivotal characters to POV characters.  The reader only gets under the skin of a POV character.  That means interesting non-POV characters like Roose, Jorah, Daario, Missandei, Hizdarh, and Gendry are not pivotal.  The pivotal character will need to be someone who has a conscience and a sense of responsibility; otherwise there will be no internal conflict.  People like Ramsay, Bron, Cersei, and Euron are not going to have an internal conflict because they basically look out for #1 only.  Extreme people like Lady Stoneheart, Gregor Clegane, Arya, and Ramsay are ruled out because they are not interested in the good of the realm.  The pivotal character will be heavily invested in a cause, family, ideology, or goal.  That interest will conflict with saving the realm of Westeros.  The pivotal character will have to choose and Mr. Martin will not make it easy.  Okay this narrows down the list.

  1. Daenerys Targaryen.  Saving Westeros versus Ending the slave trade.  Martin has proven in A Storm of Swords and A Dance with Dragons that this young lady is willing to set aside her personal ambitions in order to help bring freedom to slaves.  What if the stakes in the west is elevated up so instead of just the attraction of taking back her kingdom the situation becomes saving the kingdom from the White Walkers? 
  2. Jon Snow.  Saving Westeros versus Saving Arya.  Jon loves Arya more than he loves anyone.  He loves the Starks more than his dedication to his duties.  This will rub some of you the wrong way but I believe this conflict has already played itself out.  In A Dance with Dragons, Jon chose Arya over protecting the greater good for the realm.  I read a comment once that said Jon may no longer have a POV in the future novels.  That would confirm my theory that his own conflict has been settled and he chose badly.  His role will be diminished from this point forward. 
  3. Bran Stark.  Saving Westeros versus Saving Meera and Hodor.  Jaime may also find himself on Bran's balance scales like Lady Dustin wrote in her topic.  Martin chose to take everything away from Bran but gave him Meera and Hodor in return.  I foresee Bran having to choose how to use his power:  save a lot of lives or save two dear friends.  I look forward to reading how Bran will resolve this dilemma.  His conflict has potential to involve even Arya.  Does Bran stop his murderous sister to serve the greater need for the greater good or let her continue killing? 
  4. Tyrion Lannister.  I don't think this is about Tasha.  Tyrion loves Jaime.  Saving Westeros versus Saving Jaime.  Peace with the north will be critical to unite the realm.  Jaime's maiming of Bran will have to be resolved for peace talks with Winterfell to continue.  Tyrion may have to sit in judgment of Jaime, with Bran pulling the hidden strings.
  5. Samwell Tarly.  Saving Westeros versus Gilley.  I read a theory that I liked a lot.  That Samwell may discover how to make Valyrian steel.  The price will be Gilley's life.  This is a real love story in the books and if there is a parallel to the making of Valyrian steel in the current time, this is it.  Samwell is not AA but he is in a position to learn the making of Valyrian steel.

It will be George Martin's style to wrote the story so that some will choose badly.  Tell who you think will choose badly and why. 

Thanks

 

 

How about Sansa?  She can protect Robyn Arryn or murder him.  That's pivotal to the story in the Vale. 

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I'm worried about Bran.  Not because I like him but because his manipulation of the past can cause problems for many.   He might put the welfare of Meera Reed and the Starks ahead of what the Greenseer is supposed to do.  He's only supposed to observe and communicate valuable information.  Maybe he decides to interfere instead and tell lies.

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20 hours ago, The Transporter said:

How about Sansa?  She can protect Robyn Arryn or murder him.  That's pivotal to the story in the Vale. 

I do not believe that Sansa has any intent to murder Robert or, for that matter, to knowingly allow him to come to any harm at all.  I also firmly believe that she will do everything in her power to prevent harm coming to him.  A breach between her and Littlefinger is coming, and if LF intends harm to Robert, that could be the cause.

On 3/21/2017 at 8:12 AM, 300 H&H Mag said:

Just who are the pivotal characters in this story?  The ones who move the plot for both good and bad.  George Martin likes to take the reader on a journey within the person to witness the conflict taking place in the human heart.  This basically limits the pivotal characters to POV characters.  The reader only gets under the skin of a POV character.  That means interesting non-POV characters like Roose, Jorah, Daario, Missandei, Hizdarh, and Gendry are not pivotal.  The pivotal character will need to be someone who has a conscience and a sense of responsibility; otherwise there will be no internal conflict. 

I think that the pivotal characters in the story are the six remaining POVs from AGOT (Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, and Bran) plus Stannis and possibly Cersei.  It is their actions and choices that will determine the fate of Westeros andthey all have choices to make.

Jon - Nights Watch or Northern politics?  And how does being killed or almost killed affect him?  Does he continue his attachment to the NW, or does he take up being politically active and helping Stannis.  And how will that affect the fight against the Others?  It is possible that he will need resources outside of the NW to fight them that will only be available if he gets political.  I expect that by the time he awakens or is resurrected fArya will be on her way to Braavos so will not be an immediate factor in his decision.

Tyrion - Support Daenerys or someone else.  His knowledge and analytical capabilities will be an asset to whoever he chooses.  Plus, he has contacts in Westeros that could prove useful.  

Daenerys - Westeros or Slavers Bay.  Will she allow herself to be distracted by Meereen, or will she (finally) set her sights on Westeros. And how does that play out.  Dragons will probably be useful against the Others

Arya - Is she no one or is she a Stark of Winterfell.  And what does being a Stark involve (she clearly isn't no one, but it may take awhile for her to figure that out).  I think (hope) she gives up on vengeance and assumes the mantle of responsibility that being a Stark entails.  To rephrase Aemon, "Kill the girl, and let the Lady be born."  I also think her wolfpack will be important against the Others

Sansa - Her decision will revolve around Littlefinger.  A breach is coming, and how and why it happens are likely to be pivotal.  I think she will be an important political player.  I see a potential role rallying support for the North and the fight against the Others.

Bran - Will he remain in the cave or leave it.  Will he remain in a fantasy world where he is all-knowing, but has little ability to affect events, or will he consent to being bound by his disability, but in the real world, and maybe able to affect things.  Meera may help to keep him grounded in the real world I also suspect that the CotF/Bloodraven have secrets that could be troublesome and cause Bran to part ways with them.

Stannis - How far will he go against the Others and what will he do to get the crown of Westeros.

Cersei - I think her story is near an end but that will do much damage on the way out, making disastrous decisions that cause trouble for everyone else.

Jaime and Theon I think are near the end of their stories, and are no longer characters around whom the story revolves.

Brienne, Davos, and Sam are major characters who will have an effect, but their will stories will be closely connected with the pivotal characters.  Everyone else will either be a main character's supporter/helper or antagonist.

 

 

 

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On 21/03/2017 at 5:53 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jaime will be pivotal too.  Kill his Cersei or let the city burn.  He'll let the city burn.  His love for Cersei is too strong.

I disagree actually. He burned the letter from Cersei in Feast/Dance. I think he'll kill Cersei.

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Arya - Is she no one or is she a Stark of Winterfell.  And what does being a Stark involve (she clearly isn't no one, but it may take awhile for her to figure that out).  I think (hope) she gives up on vengeance and assumes the mantle of responsibility that being a Stark entails.  To rephrase Aemon, "Kill the girl, and let the Lady be born."  I also think her wolfpack will be important against the Others

I think Arya needs a more complex conflict. From her thoughts she only goes along with the FM as she feels there is no other choice, and as soon as it seems viable to go back to being Arya Stark she will. Maybe it could be between doing what she feels is just and protecting her family.

I never like the vengeance/justice dichotomy. In Westeros it is basically tantamount to getting a corrupt and patriarchal society's approval to do pretty much what she is doing anyway,

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2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Jaime and Theon I think are near the end of their stories, and are no longer characters around whom the sto

If Jaime's story will be over soon, what was the point in giving him so many chapters? Besides freeing Tyrion, his contribution to the plot is basically nonexistent and freeing Tyrion doesn't justify making him a major POV character (or minor POV character for that matter).

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:agree:

On 3/22/2017 at 10:16 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I'm worried about Bran.  Not because I like him but because his manipulation of the past can cause problems for many.   He might put the welfare of Meera Reed and the Starks ahead of what the Greenseer is supposed to do.  He's only supposed to observe and communicate valuable information.  Maybe he decides to interfere instead and tell lies.

Bran is already starting to use his powers inappropriately. 

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On 3/23/2017 at 10:48 AM, Steelshanks Walton said:

:agree:

Bran is already starting to use his powers inappropriately. 

He's a willful young man.  The kind that has to learn things the hard way.  I just hope the results of the hard way only damages himself and his wolf.

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45 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

He's a willful young man.  The kind that has to learn things the hard way.  I just hope the results of the hard way only damages himself and his wolf.

I imagine him learning would go a lot easier if someone would actually teach him that the way he's using his powers is wrong. Because no one has.

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On 3/25/2017 at 8:28 PM, Adam Yozza said:

I imagine him learning would go a lot easier if someone would actually teach him that the way he's using his powers is wrong. Because no one has.

That's part of the problem.  Bran doesn't have the maturity.  I would love to see a conflict between Jaime and Bran.  

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On 3/22/2017 at 7:16 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I'm worried about Bran.  Not because I like him but because his manipulation of the past can cause problems for many.   He might put the welfare of Meera Reed and the Starks ahead of what the Greenseer is supposed to do.  He's only supposed to observe and communicate valuable information.  Maybe he decides to interfere instead and tell lies.

There is no need to worry. He can't influence the past. It is stated on two separate occasions in book that it is impossible 

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On 3/21/2017 at 10:12 AM, 300 H&H Mag said:

Jon Snow.  Saving Westeros versus Saving Arya.  Jon loves Arya more than he loves anyone.  He loves the Starks more than his dedication to his duties.  This will rub some of you the wrong way but I believe this conflict has already played itself out.  In A Dance with Dragons, Jon chose Arya over protecting the greater good for the realm.  I read a comment once that said Jon may no longer have a POV in the future novels.  That would confirm my theory that his own conflict has been settled and he chose badly.  His role will be diminished from this point forward. 

I would love this.  I don't want any more Jon pov chapters.  Jon made his pivotal choice and he was about to abandon his duty.  Have you ever considered that this deed may have been predicted long ago and the others are reacting?  They knew another compromised lord commander coming.  If the old Nightsking really was a Stark it fits with the pattern for the present day equivalent to also be a Stark.  The old and the new traitor were both Starks.  Chaos would take place from the lord commander's awful decisions and weaken the forces guarding the wall.

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