If Joffrey tried to arrest Tywin Lannister, what would happen?

[pigpiginsunspear]

Most likely nothing.  Interesting if Barristan was still on the KG, though.  Barristan may have obeyed and arrested Tywin.

[snow is the man]

On 3/27/2017 at 1:10 PM, Ser Meryn Frey said:

What if Robert did it?

What do you mean? Robert was dead when joffrey was king?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

There is a reason no one ever crossed Tywin and lived. Not even the Mad King would have been crazy enough to try to arrest Tywin. If Joffrey ever tried to cross Tywin he'd be killed and Tommen would be made King, no matter what Cersei had to say about it.

[devilish]

Joffrey was crazy but he was equally a coward. He would never dare confronting his granddad. However lets say he orders his arrest.

-The Gold cloaks rule KL. They are the biggest force in the city and all there care about is gold. That something Tywin have in bucket loads. Tywin also have his own force + his son and the Hound will do his bidding. They can easily overwhelm the KG if need be

- Assuming Joffrey timing is impeccable and the old lion does end up in prison, then rest assured that Pycelle or the twins will get him out. If they don't then Kevan will lead an immense force against the city to have his brother and liege lord back. Either way the old lion will pay his debt and I can't see Joffrey surviving more then a week.

 

 

[Maester Saramello]

 

On 3/21/2017 at 1:59 PM, Ser Meryn Frey said:

Joffrey was pretty crazy. Say they are all gathered in the throne room, and Joffrey orders Tywin seized, at the time of a Storm of Swords, what would happen?

The Kingsguard?

The Gold cloaks?

Lords, knights and men-at-arms?

Obviously any Lannister-loyal soldiers, knights or lords would refuse to do the king's bidding, but would they actually resist those trying to arrest him? Even though the Kingsguard are a bunch of evil hypocrites and "not true" knights, I can't see them openly not following a direct order from the monarch. I think the Kingsguard and the Gold cloaks reluctantly would arrest him.

This thread is foremost about what would happen at that precise time of the arrest; not the aftermath, but of course that's a topic too.

 

What say you?

 

I'd say the following

- Varys would feign surprise.

- Pycelle would loosen his bowels

- Little Finger would also feign surprise, but with a smirk.

- The Lannister Palace Guard takes interest in the decoration of the floor boards.

- The kingsguard would become deaf.

- Cersei would say "Now Joffrey, is that really such a good idea?" and get shouted at to stay out of it by Joffrey.

- Tyrion would spit wine out through his nasal holes while laughing uncontrollably.

- All servants or handmaidens would remember they left a privy overflowing at the other side of the Red Keep.

- The Gold Cloaks would take up Podrick's interest in the details of their shoes.

-  Tywin would keep his frown, say he was going back into the field to win the war for his ungrateful spoiled brat Grace, and leave. 

- Joffrey would shout and curse and stomp his feet at his Grandpa until he left and then at Tyrion for his insolence of laughing, until he cuts himself on the throne and is approached by Pycelle in his newly redecorated yellow and brown robes, and offer him poppy wine for the pain, and give him 3x the dosage to make him so drunk and sleepy as to think its his idea to leave to his room and get some badly needed rest. 

[devilish]

47 minutes ago, Maester Saramello said:

 

I'd say the following

- Varys would feign surprise.

- Pycelle would loosen his bowels

- Little Finger would also feign surprise, but with a smirk.

- The Lannister Palace Guard takes interest in the decoration of the floor boards.

- The kingsguard would become deaf.

- Cersei would say "Now Joffrey, is that really such a good idea?" and get shouted at to stay out of it by Joffrey.

- Tyrion would spit wine out through his nasal holes while laughing uncontrollably.

- All servants or handmaidens would remember they left a privy overflowing at the other side of the Red Keep.

- The Gold Cloaks would take up Podrick's interest in the details of their shoes.

-  Tywin would keep his frown, say he was going back into the field to win the war for his ungrateful spoiled brat Grace, and leave. 

- Joffrey would shout and curse and stomp his feet at his Grandpa until he left and then at Tyrion for his insolence of laughing, until he cuts himself on the throne and is approached by Pycelle in his newly redecorated yellow and brown robes, and offer him poppy wine for the pain, and give him 3x the dosage to make him so drunk and sleepy as to think its his idea to leave to his room and get some badly needed rest. 

By arresting Tywin, Joffrey will officially declare himself as the new Mad King. The Tyrells would postpone the wedding and leave KL pretty quick. Meanwhile in the Westerlands, Kevan would raise an army to storm KL and release his brother and liege lord. 

Cersei will spend most of the time between Joffrey and Tywin to try to mend bridges between them. She might convince the former to relent but I doubt that she’ll be able to convince the latter to do the same. The old lion won’t forgive such insult. 
Meanwhile Tyrion and Jamie would be working hard to release the old lion. It would not be that difficult. The GC control KL and they tend to side towards the one with most gold. We all know who would win that game

It won’t take long before Tywin storms the red keep at the back of an army of GC. The KG won’t do much against such superior force especially since both the Hound and Jamie would be at Tywin’s side.  The King will be taken into custody only to appear to the people few days later to dispel any rumours of his arrest. He would say that he had decided, out of his own free will, to dedicate his entire life to the NW. Tommen would be crowned king were he will enjoy the spoils alongside his new bride Margaery and Joffrey will be sent to the wall 

[Renly's Banana]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

There is a reason no one ever crossed Tywin and lived. Not even the Mad King would have been crazy enough to try to arrest Tywin. If Joffrey ever tried to cross Tywin he'd be killed and Tommen would be made King, no matter what Cersei had to say about it.

Except Tyrion

But this does bring up a pretty interesting point. Would Tywin have ever killed Joffrey himself? I don't think he would have. 
If he never killed Aerys or even Tyrion -- two people he deeply disliked -- I don't see him killing his own grandson. Tywin, despite all his flaws, values family above all else. We see him tell Cersei multiple times to control her son. I think if Joff had continued to defy and insult Tywin, he would have taken that task up himself. I can see Tywin taking Joffrey out of the city for a while. Taking him along on some campaigns or actual battles after separating him from Cersei (she would most likely get shipped off to Casterly Rock). Controlled danger to toughen him up or scare him into being more humble and mature. And if for SOME reason a battle accident were to happen.. then the king would have died being brave in the field and Tommen is always there as backup.

If Joffrey had refused to go along with any of this and continued to threaten Tywin, then he most likely would have quit being Hand again. At least for a time, until Joffrey (and Cersei) begged him to return. 

[Therae]

5 hours ago, Maester Saramello said:

- The Lannister Palace Guard takes interest in the decoration of the floor boards.

- The kingsguard would become deaf.

This, and then Tywin would tell Cersei to take Joffrey to bed, with Pycelle along to give him a sedative. Basically the same thing that happened when Joff called Tywin out for hiding under the Rock while Robert rebelled.

[Kaibaman]

It depends on the situation. If the room is full of Lannister men at arms and goldcloaks under the command of Addam Marbrand and thus loyal to Tywin then its very likely nobody will react to Joff's order. I doubt even some members of the Kingsguards like Meryn Trant would be bold enough to arrest Tywin. However if say the room is full of people loyal to Joffrey and are not afraid of Tywin, then its likely Tywin would be powerless. Of course even in that scenario, Tywin may get arrested but the political implications would come back to bite Joff in the ass big time. Even though Joffrey is the king and in theory has ultimate power over the realm, the royal army (Lannister bannermen), city watch, sellswords in the city and even members of the Kingsguard are mostly loyal to his grandfather and then his mother and uncles and none of them would be willing to move against Tywin (Tyrion possibly but I doubt he would ever side with Joffrey over Tywin). Though Joffrey is the king the only real power base he has is perhaps a handful of lords in the Crownlands and maybe a few Stormlords who believe he really is Robert's son. Of course there is also the Reach soldiers but they Tyrells are also afraid of Tywin and aren't stupid enough to take him on. I believe the result of Tywin's arrest would be Joffrey losing a huge amount of support from powerful nobles as well as the likelihood of having an insurgency on his hands from people who are loyal to Tywin.

[Maester Saramello]

11 hours ago, devilish said:

By arresting Tywin, Joffrey will officially declare himself as the new Mad King. The Tyrells would postpone the wedding and leave KL pretty quick. Meanwhile in the Westerlands, Kevan would raise an army to storm KL and release his brother and liege lord. 

Cersei will spend most of the time between Joffrey and Tywin to try to mend bridges between them. She might convince the former to relent but I doubt that she’ll be able to convince the latter to do the same. The old lion won’t forgive such insult. 
Meanwhile Tyrion and Jamie would be working hard to release the old lion. It would not be that difficult. The GC control KL and they tend to side towards the one with most gold. We all know who would win that game

It won’t take long before Tywin storms the red keep at the back of an army of GC. The KG won’t do much against such superior force especially since both the Hound and Jamie would be at Tywin’s side.  The King will be taken into custody only to appear to the people few days later to dispel any rumours of his arrest. He would say that he had decided, out of his own free will, to dedicate his entire life to the NW. Tommen would be crowned king were he will enjoy the spoils alongside his new bride Margaery and Joffrey will be sent to the wall 

In this case I'd pity the nights watch. Joffrey would last a moon turn at the watch before being beheaded by his brothers or widlings(just imagine Joffrey running away to either side of wall and shouting at everyone that he is their king and should be obeyed. The smallfolk will laugh, beat him for killing Ned Stark, then behead them, and the Free Folk will laugh harder while maiming him with warged animals, then give him a crown of twigs when he's dead.). 

BUT you are missing one teeny, tiny, little detail my friend. Wildfire. Being the Mad King he is, Joff would load all the wildfire into catapults and launch them at the incoming Lannister army. And we all know that Joffrey + Wildfire = SO MUCH DEATH. Joff and the royal family would burn to death alongside the Lannister force and half of king's landing. The North wins independence immediately as the head of the snake had been cut off, and Dorne and Faegon can swoop in...and all get killed by Little Finger who will rule over Kings Landing as King of the Ashes. 

However I personally think this last bit with Little Finger might just happen, at least metaphorically, but that, my friends, is for another thread. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

11 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Except Tyrion

But this does bring up a pretty interesting point. Would Tywin have ever killed Joffrey himself? I don't think he would have. 
If he never killed Aerys or even Tyrion -- two people he deeply disliked -- I don't see him killing his own grandson. Tywin, despite all his flaws, values family above all else. We see him tell Cersei multiple times to control her son. I think if Joff had continued to defy and insult Tywin, he would have taken that task up himself. I can see Tywin taking Joffrey out of the city for a while. Taking him along on some campaigns or actual battles after separating him from Cersei (she would most likely get shipped off to Casterly Rock). Controlled danger to toughen him up or scare him into being more humble and mature. And if for SOME reason a battle accident were to happen.. then the king would have died being brave in the field and Tommen is always there as backup.

If Joffrey had refused to go along with any of this and continued to threaten Tywin, then he most likely would have quit being Hand again. At least for a time, until Joffrey (and Cersei) begged him to return. 

Touché. Though killing a man on the privy after he had just... rewarded himself after winning a hard fought war was in bad taste on Tyrion's and Varys' part in my opinion. Like I'v said before I'm convinced Varys' knows every time someone in King's Landing spills their seed. So he took advantage of Tywin's moment of vulnerability and lead Tyrion to the Tower of Hand and did not do much to stop him from going after Tywin.

I agree, if Joffrey kept being a nuisance even after Tywin sent away Cersei he would have seriously considered taking Joff on a Randyll Tarly style hunting trip/battle campaign. With Cersei and Joff gone Tywin could basically rule through Tommen while molding him into the king he wanted Tommen to be.

Say what you want about Tywin Lannister but he never had the chance to be the Hand of a worthy King, except for the early days of the Mad King.

[Gaz0680]

The OP stated if they were all gathered in the throne room together, a point a lot of people in this thread seem to have missed with their talk of warning Tywin etc.

Under that circumstance, if they were all in the throne room and Joffrey gave a direct order for Tywin to be arrested, I don't think either the Kingsguard or the gold cloaks would have much option but to do as ordered by their King. If they didn't then that's treason and almost certainly civil war.

I think Tywin would be arrested, albeit reluctantly, by the Kingsguard and put in a cell.

now, after that point, if Joffrey then decided Tywin was to be executed or something, despite Cersei, Jaime and probably even Tyrion protesting against it, then there's a high chance Joffrey would be assassinated before Tywin execution is ever carried out.

but again, if they were all in the throne room (possibly with some of the general public in attendance), then no way the Kingsguard disobey their king openly in public sight. They arrest Tywin then and there.

 

[devilish]

On 20/04/2017 at 4:10 AM, Maester Saramello said:

In this case I'd pity the nights watch. Joffrey would last a moon turn at the watch before being beheaded by his brothers or widlings(just imagine Joffrey running away to either side of wall and shouting at everyone that he is their king and should be obeyed. The smallfolk will laugh, beat him for killing Ned Stark, then behead them, and the Free Folk will laugh harder while maiming him with warged animals, then give him a crown of twigs when he's dead.). 

BUT you are missing one teeny, tiny, little detail my friend. Wildfire. Being the Mad King he is, Joff would load all the wildfire into catapults and launch them at the incoming Lannister army. And we all know that Joffrey + Wildfire = SO MUCH DEATH. Joff and the royal family would burn to death alongside the Lannister force and half of king's landing. The North wins independence immediately as the head of the snake had been cut off, and Dorne and Faegon can swoop in...and all get killed by Little Finger who will rule over Kings Landing as King of the Ashes. 

However I personally think this last bit with Little Finger might just happen, at least metaphorically, but that, my friends, is for another thread. 

I said that Kevan would raise an army against Joffrey. I never said he was going to use it. He wouldn't need to.

The Lannisters had been ruling KL for 2 generations. Everything was under their control. If they wanted Robert killed then voila, he ended up dead. If they wanted Tyrion to escape then voila he ended up out of KL. 

If Tywin get arrested, then rest assured that most influential people would side with him. Tyrion would use this as proof that the king is mad and he’ll have Jamie and possibly Cersei at his side. The latter loves her son dearly and because of that (+ she knows about her father’s temper), she will be willing to side with Tywin as long as the old lion promises her that the boy will be kept alive. The Tyrells (who  negotiated a deal with Tywin not with this crazy boy), the smallfolk (who absolutely hate the king) and most of the small council (Janos Slynt, Pycelle and possibly one or both Varys and LF) will do the same. 

Jamie would probably buy the GC support and Cersei will make sure that all the doors to the red keep will be open.  With such force at their side, I would be surprised if Tywin would spend a night in his cell.

Regarding Joffrey, I am pretty sure that some sort of deal can be sorted between the crown and the NW to make sure that the incumbent king won’t die/suffer too much. As they say, the Lannisters always pay their debts and like anybody else, the NW will make sure that the Lannisters/crown will remain in their debt for a long long time.
 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

While Ned was still a prisoner, the North still wanted some diplomacy. It wasn't until he died that they declared war. So, that's pretty much what would happen in the Westerlands. Now, who would lead them? Kevan? Probably, but I doubt he had enough power to get the Westerlands on his side against the Throne. No one in the Seven Kingdoms would want to fight on behalf of Tywin Lannister, money or not, because, secretly (or not so much), everybody wanted him dead.  I think many forget that, despite all his power, Tywin was a very unpopular guy (unlike Ned). People coped with him because he had money and power, but once removed from power, who knows? Maybe some would say "good riddance!" if he died?. 

In any case, it all depends on whether Jaime was already in KL or not. With Tywin removed, Joffrey has all the power as no one is there to control him. He could ask for the whole Lannister house to be killed if he had wanted to. I'm sure many members of House Lannister probably expected Jaime to do something about it, Let's say Jaime arrives (already handless) and is told Tywin is arrested. Considering he can't fight and it's likely Cersei also lost any power now Tywin is gone, Jaime could take this chance to take them all to Casterly Rock and keep Tywin arrested too with the excuse of "saving House Lannister"? Back then, Jaime still wanted to take Cersei, so he could take her and Tommen home.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

NOTHING . Until Joffrey came of age , but with so many Lannister men at court , Joffrey would find himself in protective custody .

[devilish]

4 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

While Ned was still a prisoner, the North still wanted some diplomacy. It wasn't until he died that they declared war. So, that's pretty much what would happen in the Westerlands. Now, who would lead them? Kevan? Probably, but I doubt he had enough power to get the Westerlands on his side against the Throne. No one in the Seven Kingdoms would want to fight on behalf of Tywin Lannister, money or not, because, secretly (or not so much), everybody wanted him dead.  I think many forget that, despite all his power, Tywin was a very unpopular guy (unlike Ned). People coped with him because he had money and power, but once removed from power, who knows? Maybe some would say "good riddance!" if he died?. 

In any case, it all depends on whether Jaime was already in KL or not. With Tywin removed, Joffrey has all the power as no one is there to control him. He could ask for the whole Lannister house to be killed if he had wanted to. I'm sure many members of House Lannister probably expected Jaime to do something about it, Let's say Jaime arrives (already handless) and is told Tywin is arrested. Considering he can't fight and it's likely Cersei also lost any power now Tywin is gone, Jaime could take this chance to take them all to Casterly Rock and keep Tywin arrested too with the excuse of "saving House Lannister"? Back then, Jaime still wanted to take Cersei, so he could take her and Tommen home.

Are you sure about that?

So lets say that Kevan agrees that the king is mad and he needs to be removed. He agrees to bend the knee to Renly ideally if the latter spares his brother and allows him to remain Warden of the West. Do you think that Renly would say no to that? I much doubt it.