Jump to content

Bastards' Secrets: Hidden Meanings in Bastard Names


Seams

Recommended Posts

I always associated Braavos with Bravo, which Merriam Webster defines as " a shout of approval —often used interjectionally in applauding a performance"

But it has other meanings, as well. " villain, a desperado; especially : a hired assassin".

Desperado is defined as " a bold or violent criminal; especially : a bandit of the western U.S. in the 19th century".

Some of these other definitions are not unlike Westeros' characterization of bastards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

East-West they don't seem all that far apart on the map, I'll admit!  But there's a LOT of tough terrain between the Fingers and the Neck, most of which cuts the two places off from each other.  And culturally they're drastically different as well - hell, the crannogmen are drastically different in regards to their culture than any of their neighbours, even the Northmen they're associated with (being part of the North as they are).  Now, there's probably not too much in the way of the Neck and the Twins - certainly not any terrain that would hinder the crannogmen (not like mountains!).

Like I mentioned, I could see him as an anti-COTF; the other side of that coin - money, cities, intrigue, etc; LF is very "civilized" putting him on the other side of the COTF.  But I'm with you that his appearance mimics what we've been told of the COTF, in a very broad way. 

I like that Braavos point - it really is a "bastard" city, isn't it!?  The fact that this "collector" of bastards is historically from *the* bastard city is a good point!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Agreed! Hot Pie is a real sleeper character - hiding in plain sight while GRRM uses him as a major symbol and (I hope) plans an important and/or dramatic future for him. On the Puns and Wordplay thread, the group recognized an interesting set of puns around pain / pain / Payne - the kind of pain you feel from an injury, the French word for bread and the person who carries out the King's Justice (and/or Podrick Payne). But the bread layer of meaning also ties into the flour / flower wordplay. And the name Hot Pie ties into the complex symbol around pies and tarts.

I think it is significant that Hot Pie comes from the same general neighborhood as Gendry (not to mention Davos and Ser Duncan the Tall) and that he chooses to stay with Gendry and practice his trade with the Brotherhood Without Banners (King Robert's men) when Arya moves on. He is important in both Gendry and Arya's arcs, but I think he now becomes a particularly important symbol for Gendry - maybe Gendry will "rise" at some point, the way that bread rises before baking. (Hmm. "Dawn" rises in the east; Bread rises with yeast.)

<snip

Would be great to tie Hot Pie to a character from the Iron Islands somehow. Then we'd have bread and salt for guest right, which House Frey violated. I think it's possible that there is some significance to a character so closely associated with bread (despite his name), and who made a direwolf shaped loaf for Arya, being in the Riverlands. 

Actually Gendry and Hot Pie are not at the same place. Gendry is at the inn at the crossing. Hot Pie is at the inn of the Kneeling Man. But those two aren't that far apart. Hot Pie is closer to High Heart and Riverrun. Gendry is closer to the Vale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

I like your ideas, but I have a small correction.  Littlefinger isn't from the Neck area, his family seat is pretty far from the Neck.  He's from the Finger's on the east coast of Westeros (on the littlest finger, if I remember correctly).  And his grandfather(? - or was it great-grandfather) was from Braavos.  So I can kinda see LF as an anti-COTF...he's got some parallels with them, as you mentioned, but his family is Essosi with (so far) absolutely no connection to the older races on Westeros (and no hints that he's connected to the old races on Essos either, that I've seen).  So I'm not sure how far the LF/COTF comparison could go.

Tiny point here, microscopic really. Braavos was founded by escaped slaves from Valyria. Now if I recall correctly, the Valyrians took slaves from all the peoples they conquered, but their first slaves would have been locals, before they branched out and expanded the territories of the Freehold. If the dragonlords' famous looks came from messing with genetics via blood-bonding with dragons, there could be original Valyrians who do not have purple eyes or silver-gold hair. Which brings me to the slight possibility that Littlefinger could have some of the blood of old-er Valyria. No dragon anything, but going from ancestors who were slaves to almost the highest power in the land is pretty impressive in and of itself. Rags to riches, but Littlefinger is no Cinderella. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness….

Normally we call a rose a rose, a lily a lily, etc. “Flower” is used when we don’t know the species, if we’re speaking of flowers abstractly, or if there are several varieties and we don’t feel like naming them all. Dany knows what a rose is, so why didn’t she call it a rose? “Wall of Ice” gives this away as Jon, and blue roses are associated with Winterfell, Bael the Bard, Sansa and Arya, in addition to Lyanna, so I don’t think using “blue rose” here would be a too-obvious RLJ give-away. I looked up “blue flower” and came up with Jafer Flowers and his very blue eyes. While I do think this passage points to Jon, I now believe GRRM laid out a clue here pointed at Jafer Flowers and his blue eyes, or more specifically, to AGOT Jon VII and VIII. Othor is never given a last name, but Jafer’s bastard surname of Flowers is mentioned quite often, as is the color blue. There’s also other flower imagery in these chapters. Clearly GRRM wants us to pay attention to Jafer’s name.

A blue (-eyed Jafer) Flower(s) grew (rose) from a chink in a wall of ice (ice cell), and filled the air with sweetness…

I suspect that this part of the HOTU visions is about something more complex than just Jon, it also has to do with the Others and wights.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

@LynnS has previously drawn my attention to this passage, specifically to the curiously inserted ellipsis (...).  And we all know how critical GRRM's ellipses are (e.g. that's how we know Joffrey arranged the assassination on Bran!)  Why did Ned hesitate, as if suppressing a memory, before mentioning 'fond of flowers'?  Could he have been thinking of something to do with the maester at Winterfell at that time, Walys Flowers?  LynnS and the others on 'heresy' have even speculated that the maester may have been instrumental in the whole Lyanna abduction drama.  In light of your observations here, I'm even wondering if Walys Flowers may be Jon's father, since I've always taken the blue flower to be a hint at the identity of one of Jon's parents (whom we may be over-hastily assuming is Lyanna and/or Rhaegar who crowned her with the blue garland) ?!

Being 'crowned' might be a euphemism for having sex, losing ones maidenhead (the 'plucking of the flower') symbolised by the way Rhaegar presented Lyanna with the flowers, at the end of his phallic lance penetrating the flowery ring.  But what if Lyanna 'crowned by flowers' might instead imply that Lyanna had sex with (Walys) Flowers, conceiving Jon?  It also puts a new spin on the old adage the best time to steal a woman is 'when the thief is in the moonmaid...'

Tyrion does say that in the dark (if Sansa has sex with him) he could be 'the Knight of Flowers' and she wouldn't notice the difference; and Littlefinger famously confused Lysa and Catelyn coming to his bedchamber at night; Lann is another who according to legend stole into ladies' bedchambers and impregnated maidens without their knowledge.  Was Lyanna similarly tricked into having sex with the 'wrong' person?

Wordplay-wise, the 'flower in a wall of ice' translates as Walys ('wall' + 'ice') Flowers.

Lady Dustin hints at some nefarious goings-on related to that particular bastard-maester, whom she refers to as a 'grey rat' who is 'not as chaste as they would have us believe':

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—"

If Jon's father is Walys Flowers, then Jon would be descended from the Hightowers and not Targaryens as is commonly thought.  

 

6 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

The wordplay with Snow/snow is well known, but I can't remember if someone had studied the fact that Sansa Stark built Winterfell in snow : literaly, she is building the castle of a bastard. 

I like it!  When will we be treated to the next installment on your thread of your 'kin(g)slaying theory'?  :)

Did you see @Crowfood's Daughter brilliant comparison of the three 'brothers' in the prologue as an allegory for the hidden story of a struggle between three brothers (the 'grey', the 'green,' and the 'trickster'...I like to call the latter the 'black') which you're also theorizing lies at the heart of the saga (except you use animal archetypes, 'bear/boar', 'wolf', 'goat' and 'tricksy bird-crow'...I hope you will explain how you arrived at those archetypes soon!)

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The levels of the Eyrie are Stone, Snow, and Sky. The bottom two are Jon's and Sansa's bastard names, but Sky alludes to Bran, maybe? So much Bran imagery in the Vale through Robert Arryn. I'm almost expecting Bran to become some variation of bastard, or perhaps a hint that Robert is a bastard, as well? 

Nice catch.  I definitely think Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's bastard.  There are plenty of indications, including physical features and personality traits, my favorite being that they both hate porridge ('bran'? ;)).  The first symbolic clue is in the name 'Robin' -- implying he's a different kind of bird to a falcon, and an impostor, meaning another species of bird has laid its egg in the nest (the Arryns are falcons who live in a raptor's nest, the Eyrie).  Sweetrobin's the son of another kind of bird (considering Lysa is a fish) -- perhaps the 'Mockingbird' aka 'Sweetpetyr'?

The connections you're making to Bran are interesting.  While she's in the Eyrie, Sansa fantasizes about being able to fly which is a clear allusion to greenseeing and Bran.  I also think Sansa's getting in touch with her dead direwolf Lady's spirit up there, when in spite of the absence of a godswood, nevertheless the 'wolfish wind' reaches her and makes her laugh in delight.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

It was another half hour before they were ready to set out. When all of them were mounted up, Mya Stone gave a crisp command, and two of Sky's men-at-arms swung the gates open. Mya led them out, with Lord Robert just behind her, swaddled in his bearskin cloak. Alayne and Myranda Royce followed, then Gretchel and Maddy, then Terrance Lynderly and Gyles Grafton. Maester Colemon brought up the rear, leading a second mule laden with his chests of herbs and potions.

Beyond the walls, the wind picked up sharply. They were above the tree line here, exposed to the elements. Alayne was thankful that she'd dressed so warmly. Her cloak was flapping noisily behind her, and a sudden gust blew back her hood. She laughed, but a few yards ahead Lord Robert squirmed, and said, "It's too cold. We should go back and wait until it's warmer."

"It will be warmer on the valley floor, my lord," said Mya. "You'll see when we get down there."

"I don't want to see," said Robert, but Mya paid no mind.

Their road was a crooked series of stone steps carved into the mountainside, but the mules knew every inch of it. Alayne was glad of that. Here and there the stone was shattered from the strain of countless seasons, with all their thaws and freezes. Patches of snow clung to the rock on either side of the path, blinding white. The sun was bright, the sky was blue, and there were falcons circling overhead, riding on the wind.

Up here where the slope was steepest, the steps wound back and forth rather than plunging straight down. Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down. It was a strange thought. Coming up, Mya had warned her to keep her eyes on the path ahead, she remembered. "Look up, not down," she said . . . but that was not possible on the descent. I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

At first they rode in single file, but farther down the path widened enough for two to ride abreast, and Myranda Royce came up beside her....

...

There's a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."

"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.

"Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

...

...

 Lady Myranda must have heard her thoughts. "You do turn such a pretty shade of pink. When I blush I look quite like an apple. I have not blushed for years, though." She leaned closer. "Does your father plan to wed again?"

"My father?" Alayne had never considered that. Somehow the notion made her squirm. She found herself remembering the look on Lysa Arryn's face as she'd tumbled through the Moon Door.

"We all know how devoted he was to Lady Lysa," said Myranda, "but he cannot mourn forever. He needs a pretty young wife to wash away his grief. I imagine he could have his pick of half the noble maidens in the Vale. Who could be a better husband than our own bold Lord Protector? Though I do wish he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?"

"His finger?" She blushed again. "I don't . . . I never . . ."

Lady Myranda laughed so loud that Mya Stone glanced back at them. "Never you mind, Alayne, I'm sure it's large enough."

 ...

...

When the bastard girl led her mule out from beneath the shelter of the spire, the wind caught her in its teeth. Her cloak lifted, twisting and flapping in the air. Mya staggered, and for half a heartbeat it seemed as if she would be blown over the precipice, but somehow she regained her balance and went on.

Alayne took Robert's gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. "Sweetrobin," she said, "I'm scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you're not afraid."

He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs. "I'm not?"

"Not you. You're my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin."

"The Winged Knight could fly," Robert whispered.

"Higher than the mountains." She gave his hand a squeeze.

Lady Myranda had joined them by the spire. "He could," she echoed, when she saw what was happening.

"Ser Sweetrobin," Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug. "Be careful," Alayne told her. "He can hurt you, flailing. You wouldn't think so, but he can." They found a place for him, a cleft in the rock to keep him out of the cold wind. Alayne tended him until the shaking passed, whilst Mya went back to help the others cross.

Fresh mules awaited them at Snow, and a hot meal of stewed goat and onions. She ate with Mya and Myranda. "So you're brave as well as beautiful," Myranda said to her.

"No." The compliment made her blush. "I'm not. I was so scared. I don't think I could have crossed without Lord Robert." She turned to Mya Stone. "You almost fell."

"You're mistaken. I never fall." Mya's hair had tumbled across her cheek, hiding one eye.

"Almost, I said. I saw you. Weren't you afraid?"

 Mya shook her head. "I remember a man throwing me in the air when I was very little. He stands as tall as the sky, and he throws me up so high it feels as though I'm flying. We're both laughing, laughing so much that I can hardly catch a breath, and finally I laugh so hard I wet myself, but that only makes him laugh the louder. I was never afraid when he was throwing me. I knew that he would always be there to catch me." She pushed her hair back. "Then one day he wasn't. Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you. A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain's daughter. I trust my father, and I trust my mules. I won't fall." She put her hand on a jagged spur of rock, and got to her feet. "Best finish. We have a long way yet to go, and I can smell a storm."

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

Alayne's apartments in the Maiden's Tower were larger and more lavish than the little bedchamber where she'd been kept when Lady Lysa was alive. She had a dressing room and a privy of her own now, and a balcony of carved white stone that looked off across the Vale. While Gretchel was tending to the fire, Alayne padded barefoot across the room and slipped outside. The stone was cold beneath her feet, and the wind was blowing fiercely, as it always did up here, but the view made her forget all that for half a heartbeat. Maiden's was the easternmost of the Eyrie's seven slender towers, so she had the Vale before her, its forests and rivers and fields all hazy in the morning light. The way the sun was hitting the mountains made them look like solid gold.

So lovely. The snow-clad summit of the Giant's Lance loomed above her, an immensity of stone and ice that dwarfed the castle perched upon its shoulder. Icicles twenty feet long draped the lip of the precipice where Alyssa's Tears fell in summer. A falcon soared above the frozen waterfall, blue wings spread wide against the morning sky. Would that I had wings as well.

She rested her hands on the carved stone balustrade and made herself peer over the edge. She could see Sky six hundred feet below, and the stone steps carved into the mountain, the winding way that led past Snow and Stone all the way down to the valley floor. She could see the towers and keeps of the Gates of the Moon, as small as a child's toys. Around the walls the hosts of Lords Declarant were stirring, emerging from their tents like ants from an anthill. If only they were truly ants, she thought, we could step on them and crush them.

 

4 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

So, for me, this failed glass continues LF's tricksery (and to go further his failure) : these are the barrel of a prison, but they serve for the glasshouse, and what do we find in glasshouse ? Flowers. The most beautifull flower of the North, surely. But also, who is burried in a glass coffin ? Snow White. Per chance, Sansa disguised to be Alayne has black hairs, the cold gives her red cheeks, and with the snow, she is white ^^ (there is also the image of Jon Snow at the Wall as a glass coffin in Bran's coma visions). And playing the bad queen, LF offered her a pomegranate in Sansa VI ASOS. 

So basically, Sansa uses LF and trapps him in his own play : burried in the snowed Winterfell as a glass coffin, she can wait safe for the coming of "her promised prince"

Recently @Blue Tiger brought an interesting mythological anecdote to my attention, namely that the 'magic tomb' in which the wizard Merlin was imprisoned may have actually been a magic tree, due to a misunderstanding brought about by a mistranslation of the term 'glas tann,' which was falsely translated as 'glass house' instead of 'evergreen tree.'  In the context of ASOIAF, the 'glass coffin' which enables one to see, and confers a measure of immortality, is the weirwood tree.  'Duelling with a glass sword' is using the power of the 'weirnet.'  The 'myrish lens' which enabled the Night's King to spy his icy love from the top of the Wall is likewise the 'third eye' -- i.e. the greenseer's weirwood power.  The Wall itself can also be understood as a massive extension of a tree in which someone has been imprisoned -- not only the Night's Watchmen in their icy confinement, exiled from society for their crimes real and imaginary; but also the weirwood represented by the 'Black Gate' with its ancient, trapped denizen (the old man in the tree).  The skinny weirwood arm reaching upwards through the broken dome of the Night Fort I believe represents an extension of the Black Gate, so this is like the prisoner trying to escape, having smashed the glass ceiling of the glass coffin, as it were.

Quote

Today I noticed something interesting in Arthurian Mythology - in some versions of the legend, Merlin ends up trapped inside a tree:

In the Lancelot-Grail and later accounts, Merlin's eventual downfall came from his lusting after a huntress named Niviane (or Nymue, Nimue, Niniane, Nyneue, or Viviane in some versions of the legend), who was the daughter of the king of Northumberland. In the Suite du Merlin, for example, Niviane is about to depart from Arthur's court, but, with some encouragement from Merlin, Arthur asks her to stay in his castle with the queen. During her stay, Merlin falls in love with her and desires her. Niviane, frightened that Merlin might take advantage of her with his spells, swears that she will never love him unless he swears to teach her all of his magic. Merlin consents, unaware that throughout the course of her lessons, Niviane will use Merlin's own powers against him, forcing him to do her bidding.

When Niviane finally goes back to her country, Merlin escorts her. However, along the way, Merlin receives a vision that Arthur is in need of assistance against the schemes of Morgan le Fay. Niviane and Merlin rush back to Arthur's castle, but have to stop for the night in a stone chamber, once inhabited by two lovers. Merlin relates that when the lovers died, they were placed in a magic tomb within a room in the chamber. That night, while Merlin is asleep, Niviane, still disgusted with Merlin's desire for her, as well as his demonic heritage, casts a spell over him and places him in the magic tomb so that he can never escape, thus causing his death.

Merlin's death is recounted differently in other versions of the narrative; the enchanted prison is variously described as a cave (in the Lancelot-Grail), a large rock (in Le Morte d'Arthur), an invisible tower, or a tree.In his book "The Meaning of Trees: botany, history, healing, lore" Fred Hageneder writes on page 149:

According to Breton legend, the legendary wise man Merlin climbed the Pine of Barenton (from bel nemeton, "Sacred Grove of Bel"), just as shamans climb the World Tree. Here, he had a profound revelation and he never returned to the mortal world. In later versions, Merlin's glas tann was mistranslated as a "glass house". It is actually a living tree (from the Cornish glas "(ever)green", and tann, "sacred tree"), and from these words the name of Glastonbury, in Somerset, England is sometimes derived. Hence, according to legend, it is a sacred tree in which the soul of Merlin awaits his return.

Littlefinger cannot provide the glass for the 'glass house' because he cannot provide the tree.  Only his nemesis Brandon Stark can provide that.

When Littlefinger pokes his finger into the snow, in order to gouge out the windows, that can also be understood as someone poking his finger into the eye of the Starks -- which has been Littlefinger's basic mission for some time now, ever since Brandon Stark bested him in the duel.

In a similar vein, when Littlefinger invades Sansa's space, asking her 'may I come into your castle,' then without waiting for her consent, barges in, straddling the castle and squatting down in the yard -- this is a euphemism for his thinly-veiled desire to take her maidenhead and penetrate her with his 'little finger...' ;); and the 'squatting' is reminiscent of someone defecating in order to mark his territory (as well as ruin something for someone else).  In symbolic terms, Littlefinger is defecating on the snow of the Starks, turning the white brown/black.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?"

"Why does a bear shit in the woods?" he demanded. "Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people."

She took a step toward him, her face tight. "And what does that mean, Lannister?"

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

When he had gone, Eddard Stark went to the window and sat brooding. Robert had left him no choice that he could see. He ought to thank him. It would be good to return to Winterfell. He ought never have left. His sons were waiting there. Perhaps he and Catelyn would make a new son together when he returned, they were not so old yet. And of late he had often found himself dreaming of snow, of the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night.

And yet, the thought of leaving angered him as well. So much was still undone. Robert and his council of cravens and flatterers would beggar the realm if left unchecked … or, worse, sell it to the Lannisters in payment of their loans. And the truth of Jon Arryn's death still eluded him. Oh, he had found a few pieces, enough to convince him that Jon had indeed been murdered, but that was no more than the spoor of an animal on the forest floor. He had not sighted the beast itself yet, though he sensed it was there, lurking, hidden, treacherous.

Animal 'spoor' includes footprints, disturbed undergrowth, and animal faeces, etc.  Note that Ned died and lost Winterfell and his beloved wolfswood because he failed to sight the beast who had invaded.  Sansa's task therefore lies in sighting the beast, doing what Ned and Brandon Stark failed to do conclusively, i.e. slaying him; and reclaiming Winterfell before he can spoil it.  Seeing the beast means life instead of death.  Baelish is not going to give her eyes; she needs to open those herself.  

29 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Tiny point here, microscopic really. Braavos was founded by escaped slaves from Valyria. Now if I recall correctly, the Valyrians took slaves from all the peoples they conquered, but their first slaves would have been locals, before they branched out and expanded the territories of the Freehold. If the dragonlords' famous looks came from messing with genetics via blood-bonding with dragons, there could be original Valyrians who do not have purple eyes or silver-gold hair. Which brings me to the slight possibility that Littlefinger could have some of the blood of old-er Valyria. No dragon anything, but going from ancestors who were slaves to almost the highest power in the land is pretty impressive in and of itself. Rags to riches, but Littlefinger is no Cinderella. 

What's your interpretation of why he like Aurane Waters has 'grey-green' eyes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Tiny point here, microscopic really. Braavos was founded by escaped slaves from Valyria. Now if I recall correctly, the Valyrians took slaves from all the peoples they conquered, but their first slaves would have been locals, before they branched out and expanded the territories of the Freehold. If the dragonlords' famous looks came from messing with genetics via blood-bonding with dragons, there could be original Valyrians who do not have purple eyes or silver-gold hair. Which brings me to the slight possibility that Littlefinger could have some of the blood of old-er Valyria. No dragon anything, but going from ancestors who were slaves to almost the highest power in the land is pretty impressive in and of itself. Rags to riches, but Littlefinger is no Cinderella. 

That's a good point about some Valyrian slaves being the "common folk" before being enslaved by those in their community who tamed dragons.  It's certainly not impossible that LF has a bit of that passed down (at least, at work without any references handy it seems possible!) but now I'm going to have to re-read the bits in WOIAF about Braavos again!

Though by "old races" I was still thinking of the giants, the Ifequevron, et al.  The clearly non-human races. While I'm not adverse to questioning whether the Valyrians were "human" or not - they're human-like; moreso than giants and COTF! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

play-wise, the 'flower in a wall of ice' translates as Walys ('wall' + 'ice') Flowers.

That's an interesting wordplay.  I'd go so far as to say wall+ice (Jon) = flowers (Lyanna) + Robert; since he is standing in the crypt beside her.   I think Walys Flowers was someone she trusted and he possibly traveled with her when she ran.  Lady Dustin suggests that Flowers was a proxy for the Citadel and brokering alliances and marriage contracts.    I suspect that Flowers is now Haldon Halfmaester.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@LynnS has previously drawn my attention to this passage, specifically to the curiously inserted ellipsis (...).  And we all know how critical GRRM's ellipses are (e.g. that's how we know Joffrey arranged the assassination on Bran!)  Why did Ned hesitate, as if suppressing a memory, before mentioning 'fond of flowers'?  Could he have been thinking of something to do with the maester at Winterfell at that time, Walys Flowers?  LynnS and the others on 'heresy' have even speculated that the maester may have been instrumental in the whole Lyanna abduction drama.  In light of your observations here, I'm even wondering if Walys Flowers may be Jon's father, since I've always taken the blue flower to be a hint at the identity of one of Jon's parents (whom we may be over-hastily assuming is Lyanna and/or Rhaegar who crowned her with the blue garland) ?!

Being 'crowned' might be a euphemism for having sex, losing ones maidenhead (the 'plucking of the flower') symbolised by the way Rhaegar presented Lyanna with the flowers, at the end of his phallic lance penetrating the flowery ring.  But what if Lyanna 'crowned by flowers' might instead imply that Lyanna had sex with (Walys) Flowers, conceiving Jon?  It also puts a new spin on the old adage the best time to steal a woman is 'when the thief is in the moonmaid...'

<snip

If Jon's father is Walys Flowers, then Jon would be descended from the Hightowers and not Targaryens as is commonly thought.  

Nice catch.  I definitely think Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's bastard.  There are plenty of indications, including physical features and personality traits, my favorite being that they both hate porridge ('bran'? ;)).  The first symbolic clue is in the name 'Robin' -- implying he's a different kind of bird to a falcon, and an impostor, meaning another species of bird has laid its egg in the nest (the Arryns are falcons who live in a raptor's nest, the Eyrie).  Sweetrobin's the son of another kind of bird (considering Lysa is a fish) -- perhaps the 'Mockingbird' aka 'Sweetpetyr'?

<snip

What's your interpretation of why he like Aurane Waters has 'grey-green' eyes?

Hope I'm not getting too clinical here but part of childbirth is the baby "crowning."

Unless Walys Flowers was with Lyanna when she was abducted, or found her while she was held captive, that is not possible. Jon was conceived about three months into the war, and Lyanna had been missing for more than three months.

Same here. And you could say that's another kettle of fish. :D 

I don't have an interpretation. Some people have grey-green eyes. Though Aurane has definite Valyrian blood, so that could tie in. Aurane being a bastard makes him lower than the other mighty Velaryons. Maybe he and LF are parallels...or working together. Cersei would hardly expect LF to be in on Waters making off with her ships while he's busy in the Vale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Hope I'm not getting too clinical here but part of childbirth is the baby "crowning."

Unless Walys Flowers was with Lyanna when she was abducted, or found her while she was held captive, that is not possible. Jon was conceived about three months into the war, and Lyanna had been missing for more than three months.

Same here. And you could say that's another kettle of fish. :D 

I don't have an interpretation. Some people have grey-green eyes. Though Aurane has definite Valyrian blood, so that could tie in. Aurane being a bastard makes him lower than the other mighty Velaryons. Maybe he and LF are parallels...or working together. Cersei would hardly expect LF to be in on Waters making off with her ships while he's busy in the Vale.

What if Maester Walys Flowers was in on it enough to be the one who helped with Jon's "crowing" in the clinical sense?

And at this point I expect Littlefinger has a finger in every pot! Including Aurane Waters! He is a bastard - little older than the bastards we've been associating with LF but why should age matter if he's useful?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Jak Scaletongue said:

What if Maester Walys Flowers was in on it enough to be the one who helped with Jon's "crowing" in the clinical sense?

And at this point I expect Littlefinger has a finger in every pot! Including Aurane Waters! He is a bastard - little older than the bastards we've been associating with LF but why should age matter if he's useful?

Now that I could potentially get behind! It would have been good to have a maester there.

But I'm wondering why we hadn't heard about the Maester of Winterfell disappearing, and the appointment of that Luwin guy. Maesters don't just run off, I wouldn't think.

If Walys was a Hightower bastard (do we know that?) then he'd be related to Ser Gerold. 

Here's a very cracked pot: what if...Aurane's mother was LF's mother?  Lord Baelish could have married a girl who'd had a Velaryon bastard. And if it was kept quiet that would be an awesome secret. After all...who would ever think that dark, short, Littlefinger could be the brother of a Valyrian-looking god like Aurane?  And Littlefinger would certainly embrace anyone associated with it raining gold, brother or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I suspect that Flowers is now Haldon Halfmaester.

 

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If Walys was a Hightower bastard (do we know that?) then he'd be related to Ser Gerold.

 

I've heard this theory and think there is wordplay that serves as a hint: Walys was "half maester" because his pop was Walgrave. I doubt I'm the first to suggest that.

More tinfoily (and only related by parallelism to a bastard's name) is the idea that Qhorin Halfhand is Gerold Hightower. People have mentioned that he took a wound to the hand in the Kingswood. (Is there textual support for that hand wound, or is it just theorized, by the way?). More to the point, if we find out that Aegon V's Hand was a Hightower...It would be tough to dissuade me from Halfhand=White Bull.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Now that I could potentially get behind! It would have been good to have a maester there.

But I'm wondering why we hadn't heard about the Maester of Winterfell disappearing, and the appointment of that Luwin guy. Maesters don't just run off, I wouldn't think.

If Walys was a Hightower bastard (do we know that?) then he'd be related to Ser Gerold. 

Here's a very cracked pot: what if...Aurane's mother was LF's mother?  Lord Baelish could have married a girl who'd had a Velaryon bastard. And if it was kept quiet that would be an awesome secret. After all...who would ever think that dark, short, Littlefinger could be the brother of a Valyrian-looking god like Aurane?  And Littlefinger would certainly embrace anyone associated with it raining gold, brother or not.

Not possible, unless an affair was involved.  Aurane is 22 and LF is 30-ish.  LF's father died only a few years before Game, so "Widow Baelish" wouldn't have sired Aurane either. 

They could possibly be descendants (unknowingly) of Rohanne Weber, as she also had grey-green eyes and even had a dimpled chin like Aurane.  More likely though is that grey-green eyes are a symbolism for something.  I think something related to the Grey King and Garth the Green, death and life, the sea, and potentially greenseeing.  And of course the author probably wants us to compare the two.  Besides the similar eyes, they are both called "mischievous" and "sly" and (what do you know!) both want to screw over Cersei.  LF would screw over anyone for power, but I think it's more personal with Aurane - his brother died on the Blackwater.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, thereticent said:

 

 

I've heard this theory and think there is wordplay that serves as a hint: Walys was "half maester" because his pop was Walgrave. I doubt I'm the first to suggest that.

More tinfoily (and only related by parallelism to a bastard's name) is the idea that Qhorin Halfhand is Gerold Hightower. People have mentioned that he took a wound to the hand in the Kingswood. (Is there textual support for that hand wound, or is it just theorized, by the way?). More to the point, if we find out that Aegon V's Hand was a Hightower...It would be tough to dissuade me from Halfhand=White Bull.

There's another theory out there that Haldon Halfmaester is Walys Flowers, per some R+L=Young Griff believers anyway. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/21/2017 at 6:33 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

@Isobel Harper yes that was Perseus. His mother was Danae, the real-world name that I consider most similar to Daenerys.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but Daena and Danae have a lot in common.  Their names are even anagrams.  Both were locked in a tower so they couldn't have children, in a sense, though for different reasons.  They ended up conceiving sons anyway, and these sons would go on to become great warriors.  The only thing missing in Daena's story is the "golden rain."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but Daena and Danae have a lot in common.  Their names are even anagrams.  Both were locked in a tower so they couldn't have children, in a sense, though for different reasons.  They ended up conceiving sons anyway, and these sons would go on to become great warriors.  The only thing missing in Daena's story is the "golden rain."

@Crowfood's Daughter wrote an essay about that while ago.  I don't know if I can do links on my phone, but it turns out there is a guy named Balor in Irish mythology who imprisoned his daughter to keep her from having a baby that would kill him.    Of course he did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Unchained said:

@Crowfood's Daughter wrote an essay about that while ago.  I don't know if I can do links on my phone, but it turns out there is a guy named Balor in Irish mythology who imprisoned his daughter to keep her from having a baby that would kill him.    Of course he did.

@Isobel Harper yes, I made that connection after realizing they compared Rhaegar's "bookish" tendencies to Baelor the Blessed, then Rhaegar read something in the scrolls that changed him.   Baelor was influenced by prophesy not piety.  All of the things Baelor did start to make sense from this standpoint, even making the eight year old boy who could "speak to birds" High Septon.   The Danae and Balor  similarities kind of sealed it for me.  I think his readings, studies and prophetic dragon dreams ruled his life and he most likely confused his dragon dreams for the seven speaking to him.  Poor guy.

Linking this back to the OP, Baelor was trying to prevent certain bastards during his reign by imprisoning his sisters, giving tax breaks to lords who make their daughters wear chastity belts and giving the whores in town the boot.  Years later, Aegon the Unworthy's bastards split the realm in two which would have implications for generations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Baelor was influenced by prophesy not piety.  All of the things Baelor did start to make sense from this standpoint, even making the eight year old boy who could "speak to birds" High Septon

OMG ! I just realize now the connection with our little Bran Stark ! 

(I will read your theory about Baelor the blessed)

 

edit for Baelor : 

Quote

"Doves and pigeons can also be trained to carry messages," the maester went on, "though the raven is a stronger flyer, larger, bolder, far more clever, better able to defend itself against hawks … yet ravens are black, and they eat the dead, so some godly men abhor them. Baelor the Blessed tried to replace all the ravens with doves, did you know?" The maester turned his white eyes on Jon, smiling. "The Night's Watch prefers ravens."(Jon VIII, AGOT)

Interesting, I think, no ? 

 

As I'm here, I have had another new idea for the snowed Winterfell (it is a bonus interpretation, and doesn't contradict the others interpretations) : all the scene can also tell us the story of a child conception, and at the end, the child kills his parents and destruct their castle : 

- LF and Sansa erecting together the tower is obviously a phallic symbol. When they are finished, Sansa take snow at the top of this tower and throws it to LF : here, the parts are reverse, because Sansa is playing the man and LF the girl (the text precises that LF has cut his little beard, and Sansa bears breeches).

- LF kisses Sansa (if the reader had missed the first sexual allusion ^^)

 

- Then the child arrives as Robert Arryn, who will effectively be Alayne's and LF chid after Lysa's death. Sweetrobin expulses LF and destroys Sansa's dream by destroying the castle. As a speculation, I'm tempted to see it as an echo of the end of Bael's tale (where the bastard son kills his father and provokes his mother's death), but also a reduct vision of the Stark story : at the end, the Stark children have to kill their parents (the old kings of the north/of Winter) and cause the definitive destruction of Winterfell. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

OMG ! I just realize now the connection with our little Bran Stark ! 

(I will read your theory about Baelor the blessed)

 

As I'm here, I have had another new idea for the snowed Winterfell (it is a bonus interpretation, and doesn't contradict the others interpretations) : all the scene can also tell us the story of a child conception, and at the end, the child kills his parents and destruct their castle : 

- LF and Sansa erecting together the tower is obviously a phallic symbol. When they are finished, Sansa take snow at the top of this tower and throws it to LF : here, the parts are reverse, because Sansa is playing the man and LF the girl (the text precises that LF has cut his little beard, and Sansa bears breeches).

- LF kisses Sansa (if the reader had missed the first sexual allusion ^^)

 

- Then the child arrives as Robert Arryn, who will effectively be Alayne's and LF chid after Lysa's death. Sweetrobin expulses LF and destroys Sansa's dream by destroying the castle. As a speculation, I'm tempted to see it as an echo of the end of Bael's tale (where the bastard son kills his father and provokes his mother's death), but also a reduct vision of the Stark story : at the end, the Stark children have to kill their parents (the old kings of the north/of Winter) and cause the definitive destruction of Winterfell. 

This is very good. There's more to Littlefinger than just a creepy, power-hungry guy with a chip on his shoulder. And there's more to Sweetrobin than just a sickly little whiner.

Nice catch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, thereticent said:

 

 

I've heard this theory and think there is wordplay that serves as a hint: Walys was "half maester" because his pop was Walgrave. I doubt I'm the first to suggest that.

More tinfoily (and only related by parallelism to a bastard's name) is the idea that Qhorin Halfhand is Gerold Hightower. People have mentioned that he took a wound to the hand in the Kingswood. (Is there textual support for that hand wound, or is it just theorized, by the way?). More to the point, if we find out that Aegon V's Hand was a Hightower...It would be tough to dissuade me from Halfhand=White Bull.

Walgrave!  That's another great play on words... wall/grave.  Qhorin Halfhand?  What to make of that coincidence?  LOL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2017-03-22 at 3:43 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Now that I could potentially get behind! It would have been good to have a maester there.

But I'm wondering why we hadn't heard about the Maester of Winterfell disappearing, and the appointment of that Luwin guy. Maesters don't just run off, I wouldn't think.

If Walys was a Hightower bastard (do we know that?) then he'd be related to Ser Gerold. 

Here's a very cracked pot: what if...Aurane's mother was LF's mother?  Lord Baelish could have married a girl who'd had a Velaryon bastard. And if it was kept quiet that would be an awesome secret. After all...who would ever think that dark, short, Littlefinger could be the brother of a Valyrian-looking god like Aurane?  And Littlefinger would certainly embrace anyone associated with it raining gold, brother or not.

There's totally something fishy with the Walys/Luwin Winterfell swap....the timing seems too...convenient...and didn't Catelyn make some comment about Luwin delivering *all* her children?  If so, then that timeline doesn't fit...he'd have to have stopped at Riverrun on his way to begin his posting at Winterfell (I would detour to Riverrun too, if I knew that the new Lord of Winterfell's new wife was to give birth soon - or even just to join her so neither of you feel weird wandering in to your new home completely alone).

And they may not run off, but can they be recalled to the Citadel? Like, send Maester Luwin to Winterfell with a message calling Maester Walys back to the Citadel (for whatever reason they deem plausible...). If he was a Hightower bastard, then maybe some Hightower string-pulling was used to get Walys out of Winterfell in a plausible way.  Or who knows - maybe he *did* just run off....it may not be common, but there's always *someone* who will do the unthinkable for all sorts of reasons - from nefarious ones to completely altruistic reasons.

ETA: just remembered that Cressen managed to get himself transferred from Storm's End to Dragonstone to stay with Stannis. So there's clearly *some* wiggle room for a maester's personal preferences....especially when someone is well-connected. Maybe Walys asked to leave, for reasons we aren't yet privy to...for all we know, he could've wanted to go study the Skagosi...and ended up in a pot!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...