Bastards' Secrets: Hidden Meanings in Bastard Names

[Seams]

On another thread, a comment by thereticent and follow-up by Damon_Tor raised the topic of double meanings or symbolism in the names of bastards. The original comment was about Sansa's initial discomfort with the lying required in going along with Littlefinger's schemes, and whether this made her a "loath stone" when she becomes Alayne Stone, alluding to the House Lothston heritage on her mother's side of the family. Damon_Tor followed up with:

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Interesting point. I do wonder how often bastard names are used as double meanings in prophecy. We know heraldry is used frequently, and many people point to Melisanre's vision of "only Snow" while trying to see Azor Ahai Reborn as being an example of it. I personally like the interpretation of the Lightbringer story where "Water" refers to a crownlands bastard, either Gendry or one of the "Baratheon" children, all of whom would be called "Waters" if their true parentage were known.

and

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And does anyone else find the Ironborn bastard surname "Pyke" somewhat out of place? Every other bastard surname is simply a frequently occurring natural object/substance found in the region in question, but Pyke is the name of a specific island. Why the difference? Why aren't they "Harbob Irons" or "Harjim Salt" or "Harbill Tides" or something? Why "Pyke"?

My curiosity has always focused on the name of Jafer Flowers, which is about all we know of a guy who plays a very significant early role in the story. There are a lot of Flowers bastards, but this guy plays such a key symbolic role in the plot. His first name is the closest to Joffrey of any name in the books. The flower motif, with the Knight of Flowers, Lyanna's blue roses and even Sansa as "Roadside Rose," in the song that Merillion says he is writing about her seems significant. And then there is the wordplay on flour, with Ramsay as the son of the miller's wife and Jon Snow covered in flour, pretending to be a ghost in the Winterfell crypt.

The Alayne Stone alias is almost certainly intended to show that the change that comes over Sansa after her escape from King's Landing is related to the change that comes over Catelyn when she becomes Lady Stoneheart. But there's more to it, I'm sure, and a good analysis of the "Stone" surname might help us to sort out the Harrenhal connection, since ruined castles are often described in terms of toppled stones or piles of stones or fragments of stone walls.

One of the first "bastards" introduced to the reader is the baby Bara in the brothel at King's Landing. Her mother chose that given name as an obvious (although perhaps not quite discreet enough) tribute to her father, Robert Baratheon. This caused me to wonder what fate might have in store for Theon, who bears the other half of the same surname, although there is no apparent connection to the Baratheon family.

The name "Gendry" is unique in the books, and it hit me on the third or fourth re-read that it might be related to the "green dye" occupation of Lommy Greenhands, who originates with Gendry and Hot Pie on the streets of Flea Bottom, and who dies at an early "symbolic rebirth" scene for Gendry. The Green Hands reference almost certainly alludes to Garth Greenhands, one of the big four in Westeros legends.

Also, I can't help wondering whether there is a significance in Ramsay Snow and Jon Snow sharing the same name for awhile; something more meaningful than the fact that they were both raised in the North. I suspect that GRRM set them up deliberately as more-or-less opposites, but that he also wants us to compare them on some level.

Which is your favorite name for a person born out of wedlock, and what do you think is the story behind his or her name? What does it mean that major characters like Sansa and Tyrion use bastard names at various points in the books?

These are the nine surnames associated with nine regions in Westeros:

• Crownlands - Waters
• Dorne - Sand
• Iron Islands - Pyke
• North - Snow
• Reach - Flowers
• Riverlands - Rivers
• Stormlands - Storm
• Vale of Arryn - Stone
• Westerlands - Hill

[thereticent]

Perhaps these are more asides than direct responses but:

(a) The Baratheon name has always interested me. George has said that he intended the name to be pronounced as Bara-Theon. We also have "Bar" in Bar Emmon, which is an old Andal house. And "Theon" is a given name in the North (e.g. Theon Stark during the Andal invasion) and in the Iron Islands (much earlier, apparently). It makes me wonder whether both Bar and Theon are root words from a shared (GEotD?) ancestor of the Valyrians, Andals, and Westerosi First Men. The historical Bar Emmon named Togarion seems to be a cheeky hint that there are some interesting shared linguistic roots here.

(b) Noble trueborn sons (and daughters?) of bastards would often alter their fathers' bastard names to indicate their own legitimacy (e.g. House Longwaters). We also know that over time, names become contracted. Such as "of the High Tower" to "Hightower" and "Karlon's Hold" to "Karhold" and "Karhold Starks" to "Karstarks." I've wondered whether the Lothstons could have a contracted name or an altered Vale bastard name. L-(?) o' th' Ston(e)?

 

Just some thoughts.

[Isobel Harper]

I think Aurane Waters is a potential wordplay on "rain water," something to do with the three forgings of LB.  (Gendry once tempers a sword in rainwater.)  Au is also the chemical symbol for gold, so "gold rain."  Zeus once impregnated a woman via golden rain.  (Was is Perseus' conception?)

I have a hunch that Aurane will ride Viserion, although all the symbolism around might just be just that, symbolic.  Sort of how there's a lot of fire magic and old gods associated with Beric to foreshadow Jon's potential resurrection. 

[Lollygag]

On Jafer Flowers, I’m planning my garden so I’m quite into plants lately, so this stood out as quite odd:

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness….

Normally we call a rose a rose, a lily a lily, etc. “Flower” is used when we don’t know the species, if we’re speaking of flowers abstractly, or if there are several varieties and we don’t feel like naming them all. Dany knows what a rose is, so why didn’t she call it a rose? “Wall of Ice” gives this away as Jon, and blue roses are associated with Winterfell, Bael the Bard, Sansa and Arya, in addition to Lyanna, so I don’t think using “blue rose” here would be a too-obvious RLJ give-away. I looked up “blue flower” and came up with Jafer Flowers and his very blue eyes. While I do think this passage points to Jon, I now believe GRRM laid out a clue here pointed at Jafer Flowers and his blue eyes, or more specifically, to AGOT Jon VII and VIII. Othor is never given a last name, but Jafer’s bastard surname of Flowers is mentioned quite often, as is the color blue. There’s also other flower imagery in these chapters. Clearly GRRM wants us to pay attention to Jafer’s name.

A blue (-eyed Jafer) Flower(s) grew (rose) from a chink in a wall of ice (ice cell), and filled the air with sweetness…

I suspect that this part of the HOTU visions is about something more complex than just Jon, it also has to do with the Others and wights.

AGOT Jon VII about how Othor and Jafer Flowers smell: “If they’d been dead much longer than a day, they’d be ripe by now, boy. They don’t even smell.’ Dywen, the gnarled old forester who liked to boast that he could smell snow coming on, sidled closer to the corpes and took a whiff. ‘Well, they’re no pansy flowers, but...m’lord has the truth of it. There’s no corpse stink.’”

Later when Jon is fighting Othor: The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged.

It seems that the inactive corpses are curiously without smell, but the active corpses smell quite terrible.

Sweetness is often a describer for something which smells like death, so “filled the air with sweetness” may also have a double meaning like “blue flower” being both a literal blue flower and also Jafer Flowers.

AGOT Daenerys I:  He (Willem Darry) never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor.

Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio.

AGOT Tyrion I His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on."

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

AGOT Eddard IV about Varys His hand left powder stains on Ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and sweet as flowers on a grave.

AGOT Eddard V Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the sweetness of it.

AGOT Catelyn VI "My brother is undoubtedly arrogant," Tyrion Lannister replied. "My father is the soul of avarice, and my sweet sister Cersei lusts for power with every waking breath. I, however, am innocent as a little lamb. Shall I bleat for you?" He grinned.

AGOT Daenerys VIII A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo's breast black and glistening with corruption.

ACOK Prologue Stannis nodded. "The Starks seek to steal half my kingdom, even as the Lannisters have stolen my throne and my own sweet brother the swords and service and strongholds that are mine by rights. They are all usurpers, and they are all my enemies."

ACOK Tyrion IV "So. Blood for his pride, a chair for his ambition. Gold and land, that goes without saying. A sweet offer . . . yet sweets can be poisoned. 

ACOK Daenerys II "Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones."

ACOK Sansa IV "I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

ACOK Sansa VI

Sansa lifted the cup to her lips and took a sip. The wine was cloyingly sweet, but very strong.

"You can do better than that," Cersei said. "Drain the cup, Sansa. Your queen commands you."

It almost gagged her, but Sansa emptied the cup, gulping down the thick sweet wine until her head was swimming.

ACOK Daenerys V"From Meereen I am sold to Qohor, and then to Pentos and the fat man with sweet stink in his hair.

ASOS Catelyn I There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging.

ASOS Arya XII She paddled after the sharp red whisper of cold blood, the sweet cloying stench of death.

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And Jon VIII is where I found a solid candidate for the stone beast in Dany’s vision.

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire…

Jon is given Longclaw which has a stone beast as a pommel, after he sets fire to the Lord Commander’s Tower, taking wing as Jeor’s publicly acknowledged and chosen successor, and breathing shadow fire (I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.)

So I think Dany’s vision about the blue flower is pointing to Jon, but using the word “flower” instead of “rose”, a clue was being laid to AGOT Jon VII and VIII where we may find a lot of blue-eyed Jafer Flowers references. I’m laying it out now, but there’s a great deal in common between the HOTU chapter and AGOT Jon VII and VIII, and believe there’s more to be found.

I always thought it was curious that Bloodraven’s bastard name of Rivers was associated with water in opposition to the Targ’s fire. I do wonder about Aurane Waters’ true motives given that he, like Bloodraven, is very clearly a Valyrian with a water name and makes his living on the water. There’s also that other Valyrian family near Dragonstone which is closely tied to water (again, bad with names!). Jon is another Targ with a water surname.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

@Seams shouldn't Hot Pie also be in with the flour references? Most of his arc is in the Riverlands, and he ended up staying there as well. 

@Isobel Harper yes that was Perseus. His mother was Danae, the real-world name that I consider most similar to Daenerys.

@Lollygag perhaps Daenerys doesn't recognize that there are any blue roses, or the blue roses don't look like the roses with which she is familiar. There are different types of roses and they do not all look alike. 

[Lollygag]

@Lady Blizzardborn Yeah, I wondered about that, too. The text doesn't go into much detail about the various species of roses, and it probably isn't a good idea for a writer to assume that most readers know enough about rose species to be able to follow this line of thought. If Dany is seeing a rose but doesn't recognize it as such, it seems more likely to be because the vision is blurry and/or that she's a little woozy at this point. It's a fun lead to follow, regardless.

[Unchained]

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I think Aurane Waters is a potential wordplay on "rain water," something to do with the three forgings of LB.  (Gendry once tempers a sword in rainwater.)  Au is also the chemical symbol for gold, so "gold rain."  Zeus once impregnated a woman via golden rain.  (Was is Perseus' conception?)

I have a hunch that Aurane will ride Viserion, although all the symbolism around might just be just that, symbolic.  Sort of how there's a lot of fire magic and old gods associated with Beric to foreshadow Jon's potential resurrection. 

That is interesting.  Like @Lady Blizzardborn said, yes that is Perseus.  I just developed a strong suspicion that Tyrion's escape from King's Landing is meant to show us a twisted version of that story.  Both Tyrion and Perseus are stuck in boxes and shipped across the ocean after their birth or symbolic rebirth in this case.  When Cersei is brought to the room where Tywin and Shae are lying dead, she sees this.

 

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Morning light slashed through the shutters to paint golden bars upon the rushes strewn across the floor of the bedchamber.

 

I thought those golden bars may be the golden rain from the greek myth.  However, it is a twisted version like everything else in these books.  The golden light in on two corpses who represent our reborn dragon hero's parents.  When dragons are born, it tends to involve the death of both parents.  I think this also may be a clue to those mysterious white swords.  The morning light slashing brings to mind Dawn.  Just like when you pointed out the white dragon knocking down the fruit from the tree in Dany and Daario's 'garden of Eden' moment, white swords and white with gold dragons are connected to fertility and godly, golden showers in some way.  The golden bars on the wall remind of the golden cage Garin is held in when he does his greenseer impersonation calling on the water after his enemy.  Maybe we are supposed to think of Tywin dying and going into the WWnet?

 

Sorry for derailing back to the OP, I am personally pretty confident Tyrion is a bastard.  He should be a Hill, but maybe he can be a Waters sometimes as well if he was conceived in the Crownlands.  Either way he is golden because of his Lannister blood.  If we think of him as a Waters and as Perseus here, he is golden water born from a golden rain and sent out on the water.         

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

@Lady Blizzardborn Yeah, I wondered about that, too. The text doesn't go into much detail about the various species of roses, and it probably isn't a good idea for a writer to assume that most readers know enough about rose species to be able to follow this line of thought. If Dany is seeing a rose but doesn't recognize it as such, it seems more likely to be because the vision is blurry and/or that she's a little woozy at this point. It's a fun lead to follow, regardless.

Well...she had been drugged.

[GloubieBoulga]

Really interesting thread. I have some thoughts too (especially because I think the bastard's theme is one of the principals, if not the principal). 

- for me, being bastard represents freedom if it comes with ignorance/reject/rupture with the father and the name of the father. I'll give some example to explain the idea : 

- Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella Baratheon are trapped because of their name Baratheon : they are heir of the IT, they are also Lannister, so they are instrumentalized by many people like Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion or the Martell. Like Illyrio says to Tyrion in ADWD, when Tyrion has the idea to help Myrcella take the IT, only for "making Cersei weep" : 

 

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Tyrion was beginning to suspect that a certain freckled washerwoman knew more of the Common Speech than she pretended. "My niece Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens. And I have half a mind to make her a queen."

Illyrio smiled as his serving men spooned out bowls of black cherries in sweet cream for them both. "What has this poor child done to you that you would wish her dead?"

"Even a kinslayer is not required to slay all his kin," said Tyrion, wounded. "Queen her, I said. Not kill her."

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this."

Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. "Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least."(Tyrion I ADWD)

 

 

Basically, in this case, Myrcella doesn't belong herself, she belongs first to a name, and to her lineage. She is a : 

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"puppet dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads."(Tyrion X ASOS)

 

That was the same for Robert Baratheon, who sit the IT because he has "more rights" than Eddard Stark or Jon Arryn: what was these rights ? being a direct descendant of Aegon V Targaryen throw his daughter : the name (and the presumed blood because of the name). 

Tyrion himself during the 3 books is unchained to his family and instrumentalized by his father Tywin : Tywin sends him to play the Hand at KL (but not being really the Hand); when Tywin returns, he makes Tyrion master of coins and marry him to Sansa Stark  : so he can keep a majority of pro-Lannister (and contrebalance the Tyrell) at small council, and he keeps also a hand on the North for the future, when Roose Bolton will be weakened by war against Ironborn and Stannis and perhaps the hostility of many bannermen of the North. Tyrion's slavery at KL is symbolized by the collar of the Hand (= the chain of the Hand), a tower where he is "prisonner" (and spied) like a princess in a tower, and by the huge chain he command to the smiths for future battle against Stannis : when a smith refuses to take part to this chain and purposes to Tyrion to make him his own armor, Tyrion don't want to and menaces the smiths. But at the end of ADWD, when he escape the slavers to join the "Second sons" (= the potentialy bastard sons ?), he ask the smith to break his golden and ringing collar and to give him an armor. The smith lets him choose the pieces of the armor. Before Tyrion arrives to this act of freedom, he has killed his father, and after he has choosen different names : one bastard name (Hugor Hill) and one name without surname (Yollo)

It seems that Gendry also gains his freedom by not having a surname, in fact by not having a father (Cersei didn't know his existence before Ned Stark speaks about him (and about the little Bara) to the dying Robert).

Arya is "safe" when she renounces to the Stark name... and to return to Winterfell or the Wall. And perhaps the ultimate freedom is effectively to be "noone" : Arya will be able to have a second birth, and a second birth that she can choose.

 

- Imo the first signification of bastard's name is that they belong to the earth and not to a father and a lineage.

- Interesting that Davos offers freedom to Edric Storm, but must find Rickon and his wolf for the use of the Manderly : I really wonder what Davos will do with Rickon. 

I have no time to go further, but I'm always more convinced that the Stark of Winterfell are truly a bastard lineage and that "Stark" is not their real name (obviously, the Stark of Winterfell ignore that ^^). 

 

[Seams]

15 hours ago, thereticent said:

(a) The Baratheon name has always interested me. George has said that he intended the name to be pronounced as Bara-Theon. We also have "Bar" in Bar Emmon, which is an old Andal house. And "Theon" is a given name in the North (e.g. Theon Stark during the Andal invasion) and in the Iron Islands (much earlier, apparently). It makes me wonder whether both Bar and Theon are root words from a shared (GEotD?) ancestor of the Valyrians, Andals, and Westerosi First Men. The historical Bar Emmon named Togarion seems to be a cheeky hint that there are some interesting shared linguistic roots here.

(b) Noble trueborn sons (and daughters?) of bastards would often alter their fathers' bastard names to indicate their own legitimacy (e.g. House Longwaters). We also know that over time, names become contracted. Such as "of the High Tower" to "Hightower" and "Karlon's Hold" to "Karhold" and "Karhold Starks" to "Karstarks." I've wondered whether the Lothstons could have a contracted name or an altered Vale bastard name. L-(?) o' th' Ston(e)?

Yes, maybe the title of this thread should have been broader. I think there are lots of ways that GRRM is hinting at connections or that he wants us to compare characters from different eras. I've been so fascinated by the ways he uses wordplay from our universe that I hadn't thought about his use of in-universe root words to signal some common roots.

I agree about the contractions as hints, too. He goes to so much trouble to explain the Karstark connection as a cadet branch of the Starks, and then raises the question of defining "kinslayer" in that context. It seems to me that he would not invest so much in this set-up unless we are going to see other, similar connections among families.

Your comment reminded me of another of my favorite pairs of father / out-of-wedlock child characters: Quentyn Ball and Glendon Flowers. Glendon tries so hard to establish the connection with his presumed father, using his name and his sigil. It's touching, really, as his supposed father was not particularly successful or heroic. But he is legendary in Glendon's eyes, and the son wants to bring honor to his family by excelling at knighthood.

14 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I think Aurane Waters is a potential wordplay on "rain water," something to do with the three forgings of LB.  (Gendry once tempers a sword in rainwater.)  Au is also the chemical symbol for gold, so "gold rain."  Zeus once impregnated a woman via golden rain.  (Was is Perseus' conception?)

I have a hunch that Aurane will ride Viserion, although all the symbolism around might just be just that, symbolic.  Sort of how there's a lot of fire magic and old gods associated with Beric to foreshadow Jon's potential resurrection. 

Very nice catch! Aurane Waters is one of the characters I am most anxious to catch up with in the next books. He holds so much power and could tip the balance for or against one of the major protagonists. The Rains of Castamere symbolism in his name had escaped me, but the combination of "Au-" and "-rane" almost certainly has to allude to that motif. Cersei finds him so attractive - If he is an embodiment of some Rains of Castamere symbolism, I wonder whether he represents the most ruthless side of Tywin and the Lannisters? Or maybe he will be the "rain" that falls on the Lannisters, giving them a taste of their own medicine?

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A blue (-eyed Jafer) Flower(s) grew (rose) from a chink in a wall of ice (ice cell), and filled the air with sweetness…

...

Sweetness is often a describer for something which smells like death, so “filled the air with sweetness” may also have a double meaning like “blue flower” being both a literal blue flower and also Jafer Flowers.

-----------------------------------------

And Jon VIII is where I found a solid candidate for the stone beast in Dany’s vision.

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire…

Jon is given Longclaw which has a stone beast as a pommel, after he sets fire to the Lord Commander’s Tower, taking wing as Jeor’s publicly acknowledged and chosen successor, and breathing shadow fire (I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.)

So I think Dany’s vision about the blue flower is pointing to Jon, but using the word “flower” instead of “rose”, a clue was being laid to AGOT Jon VII and VIII where we may find a lot of blue-eyed Jafer Flowers references. I’m laying it out now, but there’s a great deal in common between the HOTU chapter and AGOT Jon VII and VIII, and believe there’s more to be found.

I am in awe. These are the first explanations of these two critical passages that feels completely right to me.

I tried to make sense of the "sweet" references at one point - some of them seemed sexual describing, for instance, Tyrion's attraction toward Sansa. But then he kept calling Cersei his sweet sister, and I really didn't think there was a hidden lust implied in these words. But the complicated nature of death in ASOIAF could explain a lot of the underlying meaning of the "sweet" references.

Regarding Jon and Longclaw as the stone beast: the fact that Longclaw is a bastard sword may strengthen the connection of your interpretation to the unique status of a bastard in these stories. For the direwolf re-read, I just did a close reading of the Catelyn chapter in ACoK where Ned's bones have been laid out for her to view, and she observes that the skull doesn't look like Ned without his eyes:

: “… one skull looks much like another, and in those empty hollows she found no trace of her lord’s dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone.”

Because I had just done a close reading of the chapter where Jon finds the obsidian cache at the Fist of the First Men, I had noticed that the author meant for us to compare the discovery of the direwolf pups by Robb in AGoT with the discovery of the dragonglass bundle by Jon in ACoK. So Catelyn's description of Ned's destroyed eyes as fog (could be a Grey Wind reference), and the stone (could be an obsidian reference) seemed to extend this comparison: Fog and stone. Soft and hard. Robb and Jon. And the eyes/Ice wordplay tells us there is a layer of sword symbolism here, too.

But I digress: I meant to focus on the stone symbolism for Jon. Your "stone beast" interpretation is completely consistent with Jon's connection to dragonglass. I realize that all Stark lords "turn to stone" when their likenesses are sculpted in the Winterfell crypt, but the close proximity of the Catelyn and Jon chapters in ACoK tells me that the reference to Ned's eyes is deliberately connected to Jon as the one who finds important stones. (Stones that can "see," as we will discover later with the glass candles.)

Thank you so much for these insights!

 

[GloubieBoulga]

The wordplay with Snow/snow is well known, but I can't remember if someone had studied the fact that Sansa Stark built Winterfell in snow : literaly, she is building the castle of a bastard. 

[Seams]

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

@Seams shouldn't Hot Pie also be in with the flour references? Most of his arc is in the Riverlands, and he ended up staying there as well.

Agreed! Hot Pie is a real sleeper character - hiding in plain sight while GRRM uses him as a major symbol and (I hope) plans an important and/or dramatic future for him. On the Puns and Wordplay thread, the group recognized an interesting set of puns around pain / pain / Payne - the kind of pain you feel from an injury, the French word for bread and the person who carries out the King's Justice (and/or Podrick Payne). But the bread layer of meaning also ties into the flour / flower wordplay. And the name Hot Pie ties into the complex symbol around pies and tarts.

I think it is significant that Hot Pie comes from the same general neighborhood as Gendry (not to mention Davos and Ser Duncan the Tall) and that he chooses to stay with Gendry and practice his trade with the Brotherhood Without Banners (King Robert's men) when Arya moves on. He is important in both Gendry and Arya's arcs, but I think he now becomes a particularly important symbol for Gendry - maybe Gendry will "rise" at some point, the way that bread rises before baking. (Hmm. "Dawn" rises in the east; Bread rises with yeast.)

14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The text doesn't go into much detail about the various species of roses, and it probably isn't a good idea for a writer to assume that most readers know enough about rose species to be able to follow this line of thought. If Dany is seeing a rose but doesn't recognize it as such, it seems more likely to be because the vision is blurry and/or that she's a little woozy at this point. It's a fun lead to follow, regardless.

For what it's worth, in real life, "Widow's Wail" is the name of a blue flower. I always end up coming back to swords, somehow.

12 hours ago, Unchained said:

Perseus.  I just developed a strong suspicion that Tyrion's escape from King's Landing is meant to show us a twisted version of that story.  Both Tyrion and Perseus are stuck in boxes and shipped across the ocean after their birth or symbolic rebirth in this case.  When Cersei is brought to the room where Tywin and Shae are lying dead, she sees this.

...

Sorry for derailing back to the OP, I am personally pretty confident Tyrion is a bastard.  He should be a Hill, but maybe he can be a Waters sometimes as well if he was conceived in the Crownlands.  Either way he is golden because of his Lannister blood.  If we think of him as a Waters and as Perseus here, he is golden water born from a golden rain and sent out on the water.         

Holy crap this is excellent. I have been so focused on the Odysseus allusions in Tyrion's travels that it didn't occur to me there might be another whole layer of mythological allusions. It's fascinating to realize that Penny seems to play the role of "the gods" in the Tyrion-as-Perseus story line: more than once, she gives him a shield, helps him find armor and a helm. I also thought of Tyrion's emergence from the wine barrel as the "hatching" of a dragon egg, but the Perseus story adds another great layer of meaning. (Layer of eggs, get it? Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Really great insights. Thanks for sharing.

4 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Really interesting thread. I have some thoughts too (especially because I think the bastard's theme is one of the principals, if not the principal). 

- for me, being bastard represents freedom if it comes with ignorance/reject/rupture with the father and the name of the father. I'll give some example to explain the idea : 

. . .

It seems that Gendry also gains his freedom by not having a surname, in fact by not having a father (Cersei didn't know his existence before Ned Stark speaks about him (and about the little Bara) to the dying Robert).

Arya is "safe" when she renounces to the Stark name... and to return to Winterfell or the Wall. And perhaps the ultimate freedom is effectively to be "no one" : Arya will be able to have a second birth, and a second birth that she can choose.

- Imo the first signification of bastard's name is that they belong to the earth and not to a father and a lineage.

- Interesting that Davos offers freedom to Edric Storm, but must find Rickon and his wolf for the use of the Manderly : I really wonder what Davos will do with Rickon. 

I have no time to go further, but I'm always more convinced that the Stark of Winterfell are truly a bastard lineage and that "Stark" is not their real name (obviously, the Stark of Winterfell ignore that ^^).

I think you are getting at something very important and central to a lot of the characters and their stories. There is a lot of talk of the "blood" carried by nobleborn people, or the name they carry or the gods their families worship. Are those markers of identity chains that restrict movement? Is a "bastard" character freer to act?

One of the phrases used to describe out-of-wedlock births is that the child is from "the wrong side of the blanket." And blankets are sometimes used for warmth but sometimes as a death shroud or even to prevent escape, as when The Hound wraps Arya in a blanket at night while he is taking her back to her family. Later, at the House of Black and White, I think Arya wakes up happy one morning because she can have as many blankets as she likes, including one that reminds her of the blanket she used at Winterfell.

I will look forward to more thinking about the idea of bastard = freedom. A very interesting idea.

[GloubieBoulga]

3 minutes ago, Seams said:

Holy crap this is excellent. I have been so focused on the Odysseus allusions in Tyrion's travels that it didn't occur to me there might be another whole layer of mythological allusions. It's fascinating to realize that Penny seems to play the role of "the gods" in the Tyrion-as-Perseus story line: more than once, she gives him a shield, helps him find armor and a helm. I also thought of Tyrion's emergence from the wine barrel as the "hatching" of a dragon egg, but the Perseus story adds another great layer of meaning. (Layer of eggs, get it? Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Perseus is also the killer of Medusa (other name Gorgo), the monster who could petrified with her eyes. And Tywin's eyes have the ability to "petrified" other people. By the way, Medusa was beheaded and "petrified" herself before by looking at her reflexion in Aegidius (Athena's shield offered to Perseus), that is not Tywin's death, unless we considere that he was looking at the ugly Tyrion as a reflexion of his own intern ugliness/his fault (he says once that the gods have given him Tyrion to punish his pride)

[Seams]

13 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Perseus is also the killer of Medusa (other name Gorgo), the monster who could petrified with her eyes. And Tywin's eyes have the ability to "petrified" other people. By the way, Medusa was beheaded and "petrified" herself before by looking at her reflexion in Aegidius (Athena's shield offered to Perseus), that is not Tywin's death, unless we considere that he was looking at the ugly Tyrion as a reflexion of his own intern ugliness/his fault (he says once that the gods have given him Tyrion to punish his pride)

Medusa might be Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn sees her reflection in Renly's armor shortly before he dies.

[Lollygag]

34 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

The wordplay with Snow/snow is well known, but I can't remember if someone had studied the fact that Sansa Stark built Winterfell in snow : literaly, she is building the castle of a bastard. 

The Snowcastle scene is the last chapter in a ASOS, but the next to the last chapter is Jon XII.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

This is the only time that I found where Jon connects himself to Snow, the white stuff. It's literally only a few pages before the Snowcastle scene.

Sansa also wears white fur in this scene and she notes The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence. Was Sansa's hair still red in this scene? Don't recall.

Interestingly, later in the Snowcastle chapter, snow figures prominently in the scene between Lysa, LF and Sansa. I believe it's to trigger the reader to compare Lysa/Catelyn, LF/Ned, and Sansa/Jon as the bastards.

The levels of the Eyrie are Stone, Snow, and Sky. The bottom two are Jon's and Sansa's bastard names, but Sky alludes to Bran, maybe? So much Bran imagery in the Vale through Robert Arryn. I'm almost expecting Bran to become some variation of bastard, or perhaps a hint that Robert is a bastard, as well? 

[Seams]

42 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

The wordplay with Snow/snow is well known, but I can't remember if someone had studied the fact that Sansa Stark built Winterfell in snow : literaly, she is building the castle of a bastard. 

 

7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The Snowcastle scene is the last chapter in a ASOS, but the next to the last chapter is Jon XII.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

This is the only time that I found where Jon connects himself to Snow, the white stuff. It's literally only a few pages before the Snowcastle scene.

Sansa also wears white fur in this scene and she notes The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence. Was Sansa's hair still red in this scene? Don't recall.

Interestingly, later in the Snowcastle chapter, snow figures prominently in the scene between Lysa, LF and Sansa. I believe it's to trigger the reader to compare Lysa/Catelyn, LF/Ned, and Sansa/Jon as the bastards.

The levels of the Eyrie are Stone, Snow, and Sky. The bottom two are Jon's and Sansa's bastard names, but Sky alludes to Bran, maybe? So much Bran imagery in the Vale through Robert Arryn. I'm almost expecting Bran to become some variation of bastard, or perhaps a hint that Robert is a bastard, as well? 

One interesting aspect of the snow castle scene is that Littlefinger has to instruct Sansa in how to build some parts of the snow castle: e.g., he tells her to pack snow around sticks to make the bridges and to cover up the gargoyles (probably a symbol of Tyrion) with piles of snow. Perhaps even more important, for this symbolism around eyes, is that he uses his little finger to make window holes in the towers of the snow castle. In other words, he and his action of creation allows people to see. (There was a significant scene in AGoT where the newly-crippled and awoken Bran sits by the window in his room, foreshadowing opening his third eye.)

If GloubieBoulga is right about the bastard = freedom symbolism, this provides a new perspective on Littlefinger. Maybe his role for Sansa is similar to a role Tyrion played for Jon, when he told him to embrace his status as a bastard and to make it his armor. By turning Sansa into his "natural daughter," and by helping her to builld the snow version of Winterfell, maybe he is helping her to achieve freedom (in a weird, twisted way). He even kills her aunt, who is one of the few remaining adult relatives in a position to protect Sansa, severing her ties to the family lines that restrict her.

But I have always been intrigued that Littlefinger tells Sansa that they have no way to build the glass for the glass house, completely overlooking that small pieces of sheet ice would be perfect for this part of the castle. Which brings us back - again - to ice / eyes. In this case, missing ice just as Ned's eyes were missing from the skull and Ned's sword, Ice, was missing from the skeleton that Catelyn looked upon.

Maybe GRRM's point is that the fake father can provide some kinds of sight (windows in the snow towers) but only Ned can provide eyes / Ice.

[Lollygag]

6 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

- for me, being bastard represents freedom if it comes with ignorance/reject/rupture with the father and the name of the father. I'll give some example to explain the idea :

- Imo the first signification of bastard's name is that they belong to the earth and not to a father and a lineage.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

 

One interesting aspect of the snow castle scene is that Littlefinger has to instruct Sansa in how to build some parts of the snow castle: e.g., he tells her to pack snow around sticks to make the bridges and to cover up the gargoyles (probably a symbol of Tyrion) with piles of snow. Perhaps even more important, for this symbolism around eyes, is that he uses his little finger to make window holes in the towers of the snow castle. In other words, he and his action of creation allows people to see. (There was a significant scene in AGoT where the newly-crippled and awoken Bran sits by the window in his room, foreshadowing opening his third eye.)

If GloubieBoulga is right about the bastard = freedom symbolism, this provides a new perspective on Littlefinger. Maybe his role for Sansa is similar to a role Tyrion played for Jon, when he told him to embrace his status as a bastard and to make it his armor. By turning Sansa into his "natural daughter," and by helping her to builld the snow version of Winterfell, maybe he is helping her to achieve freedom (in a weird, twisted way). He even kills her aunt, who is one of the few remaining adult relatives in a position to protect Sansa, severing her ties to the family lines that restrict her.

But I have always been intrigued that Littlefinger tells Sansa that they have no way to build the glass for the glass house, completely overlooking that small pieces of sheet ice would be perfect for this part of the castle. Which brings us back - again - to ice / eyes. In this case, missing ice just as Ned's eyes were missing from the skull and Ned's sword, Ice, was missing from the skeleton that Catelyn looked upon.

Maybe GRRM's point is that the fake father can provide some kinds of sight (windows in the snow towers) but only Ned can provide eyes / Ice.

All of these bastard names are very elemental, earth and water being the most strongly represented by far, air represented once in Storm, and curiously fire is not represented at all. Pyke is outside the pattern, but it too refers to land so it still fits in a way. (Seems like the Iron Islands would have a reference to water?). Reminds me of the CotF. Westeros’ competitive feudal system has been identified as the problem keeping the Westerosi from dealing with more important issues, and bastards are forced outside this system. Perhaps bastard names, or being associated with bastard names indicates that these characters will in some way be instrumental in overthrowing the feudal system, perhaps restoring an association with the CotF or promoting their priorities?

Veering a mite bit into crackpotdom, LF is strongly associated with bastards and is especially keen on collecting them to use for his own purposes, whatever those are. Like the CotF, LF is very small and has green eyes. He’s also from the Neck area like the Reeds who seem very strongly linked to the CotF. I don’t think LF has any actual connection to the CotF, but I do consider the possibility that no matter how ill intended he is, or how nasty is means are, his ends may be of benefit to the CotF. LF would certainly have a strong motive to break the feudal system, being a sort of bastard himself. Placing bastards or those who in some way identify as bastards in prominent positions throughout Westeros would help breakdown the system, as bastards are unlikely to revere the traditions which caused them so much pain and anger.

Yes, perhaps the glass and eyes/Ice are telling the reader that while LF may help bastards to see/give them opportunity, he is a poor choice for providing insight or direction. Glass makes me think of seeing eye glasses, and looking glasses, so perhaps glass represents a deeper form of seeing. I'll have to look at that more later. Also, one can supposedly make a compass by floating glass in water and fathers are a sort of compass to their kids, at least in the case of Ned (in a positive way) and Tywin (in a negative way).

[GloubieBoulga]

23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The Snowcastle scene is the last chapter in a ASOS, but the next to the last chapter is Jon XII.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

This is the only time that I found where Jon connects himself to Snow, the white stuff. It's literally only a few pages before the Snowcastle scene.

Sansa also wears white fur in this scene and she notes The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence. 

Interestingly, later in the Snowcastle chapter, snow figures prominently in the scene between Lysa, LF and Sansa. I believe it's to trigger the reader to compare Lysa/Catelyn, LF/Ned, and Sansa/Jon as the bastards.

Absolutely yes. The Jon's chapter is also the one where he refuses Winterfell from Stannis and to be legitimated. As Winterfell was burnt (by another Snow), there is also a concrete image of Winterfell filling in the air like "ashes flakes" and arriving as "snow flakes" to Sansa, who re-built the castle. (we can find the assimilation between ashes and snowflakes in other chapters, like Astapor burning or Melisandre visions in ADWD)

When I began to study this Sansa's chapter (I have deeply studied it, but all my text is in french), I thought it was a foreshadowing for Sansa re-building Winterfell at the end, but I think now I was wrong. Possibly, it can foreshadow that she will "built" and rule her own castle, but not Winterfell. If we look attentively, building Winterfell with snow isn't her first idea : she begins with snowballs, to play a battle. After that, she want built a snow knight, and she begins with a tower, and after that the whole thing take the form of Winterfell. 

 In mirror, in KL, she wanted a knight to deliver her, but she found only Dontos, and the Hound. Both protect her, in a way, but no one delivers her. 

So I wonder if this snowed Winterfell doesn't represents another part of the ancient Stark story (an untold part), where a maiden (daughter of a king ?) wanted a "knight" (a young wolf ?) but was finally married to the first "lord/king of Winterfell" and obtained a castle instead what she wanted. I keep in mind the vision of the "girl in grey on a dying horse", that seems to me an echo of this story. Same echo that we find with the marriage between Jeyne Poole/fake Arya and Ramsay Bolton ex-Snow new Lord of Winterfell. 

We must also note that when she is building the snowed Winterfell, she is Sansa Stark, not totally Alayne (LF calls her Sansa). At one moment, we see her covered with snow, but looking like a bear cub. I'm actually wondering if this "bear appearance" (confirmed in Alayne II, AFFC, when she quit the Eyrie as Alayne Stone and looks also like a bear cub with furs) is an indication for a part of "bear blood" in Stark lineage, a part coming from the hypothetic maid I evoked before. 

 

33 minutes ago, Seams said:

One interesting aspect of the snow castle scene is that Littlefinger has to instruct Sansa in how to build some parts of the snow castle: e.g., he tells her to pack snow around sticks to make the bridges and to cover up the gargoyles (probably a symbol of Tyrion) with piles of snow.

I used to see the fact that LF helps with a wooden stick as an allusion to a master marionettist : he wants Sansa as his puppet. 

I also saw the gargoyle as an allusion to Tyrion and LF's real unability to protect Sansa : the gargoyles are fake with the snow (is it also a clue that Tyrion isn't a bastard ?)

42 minutes ago, Seams said:

Perhaps even more important, for this symbolism around eyes, is that he uses his little finger to make window holes in the towers of the snow castle. In other words, he and his action of creation allows people to see. (There was a significant scene in AGoT where the newly-crippled and awoken Bran sits by the window in his room, foreshadowing opening his third eye.)

Interesting link with Bran. As a bird character, imo, LF could replay with Sansa the ancient part of "Brandon Stark" (the raven/crow character. Bran the Builder ?)) who wanted the maid and couldn't have her, but manipulated her and finally married her to his brother (the heir of the Stark crown)

46 minutes ago, Seams said:

If GloubieBoulga is right about the bastard = freedom symbolism, this provides a new perspective on Littlefinger. Maybe his role for Sansa is similar to a role Tyrion played for Jon, when he told him to embrace his status as a bastard and to make it his armor. By turning Sansa into his "natural daughter," and by helping her to builld the snow version of Winterfell, maybe he is helping her to achieve freedom (in a weird, twisted way). He even kills her aunt, who is one of the few remaining adult relatives in a position to protect Sansa, severing her ties to the family lines that restrict her.

Well observed ! We can add that the "stone" is the essentiel element of Winterfell throw the castle, the weirwood (who turns stone when it dies), the stonekings and lord in the crypts. Summer "thinks" to the stone men when Bran sees Winterfell burning throw his eyes, in ACOK. I think this is an irony from GRRM, subtily showing that LF just can replace Winterfell as a prison for Sansa, but on the contrary will help her to be free, and without knowing it obviously. 

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

But I have always been intrigued that Littlefinger tells Sansa that they have no way to build the glass for the glass house, completely overlooking that small pieces of sheet ice would be perfect for this part of the castle. Which brings us back - again - to ice / eyes. In this case, missing ice just as Ned's eyes were missing from the skull and Ned's sword, Ice, was missing from the skeleton that Catelyn looked upon.

So, for me, this failed glass continues LF's tricksery (and to go further his failure) : these are the barrel of a prison, but they serve for the glasshouse, and what do we find in glasshouse ? Flowers. The most beautifull flower of the North, surely. But also, who is burried in a glass coffin ? Snow White. Per chance, Sansa disguised to be Alayne has black hairs, the cold gives her red cheeks, and with the snow, she is white ^^ (there is also the image of Jon Snow at the Wall as a glass coffin in Bran's coma visions). And playing the bad queen, LF offered her a pomegranate in Sansa VI ASOS. 

So basically, Sansa uses LF and trapps him in his own play : burried in the snowed Winterfell as a glass coffin, she can wait safe for the coming of "her promised prince"

[Jak Scaletongue]

17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Veering a mite bit into crackpotdom, LF is strongly associated with bastards and is especially keen on collecting them to use for his own purposes, whatever those are. Like the CotF, LF is very small and has green eyes. He’s also from the Neck area like the Reeds who seem very strongly linked to the CotF. I don’t think LF has any actual connection to the CotF, but I do consider the possibility that no matter how ill intended he is, or how nasty is means are, his ends may be of benefit to the CotF. LF would certainly have a strong motive to break the feudal system, being a sort of bastard himself. Placing bastards or those who in some way identify as bastards in prominent positions throughout Westeros would help breakdown the system, as bastards are unlikely to revere the traditions which caused them so much pain and anger.

I like your ideas, but I have a small correction.  Littlefinger isn't from the Neck area, his family seat is pretty far from the Neck.  He's from the Finger's on the east coast of Westeros (on the littlest finger, if I remember correctly).  And his grandfather(? - or was it great-grandfather) was from Braavos.  So I can kinda see LF as an anti-COTF...he's got some parallels with them, as you mentioned, but his family is Essosi with (so far) absolutely no connection to the older races on Westeros (and no hints that he's connected to the old races on Essos either, that I've seen).  So I'm not sure how far the LF/COTF comparison could go.

[Lollygag]

16 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

I like your ideas, but I have a small correction.  Littlefinger isn't from the Neck area, his family seat is pretty far from the Neck.  He's from the Finger's on the east coast of Westeros (on the littlest finger, if I remember correctly).  And his grandfather(? - or was it great-grandfather) was from Braavos.  So I can kinda see LF as an anti-COTF...he's got some parallels with them, as you mentioned, but his family is Essosi with (so far) absolutely no connection to the older races on Westeros (and no hints that he's connected to the old races on Essos either, that I've seen).  So I'm not sure how far the LF/COTF comparison could go.

Thanks for catching me on that. I was thinking that the Fingers are near the Neck when one considers all of Westeros, but that may not be the best way to look at it. The Neck, the Fingers, and the Twins/Freys seem to be considered the Trailer Park of Westeros, so I tend to group them in my mind.

I agree that it's doubtful that he has CotF roots. That he looks like them in height and eye color, and is associated with bastards with earth names, has me considering that his choices will unintentionally impact the CotF or at least their agenda through bastards, but at this point I don't see any further connection.

Now that you mention it, Braavos is a sort of bastard town, consisting of freed men from all over the world, of Faceless men and "No One". Bastards are likewise without an identity, and like "no one", unacknowledged.