Why women don't take black

[Walda]

Well, not every woman wants to take the black:

Quote

 It was pleasant to be out of mourning. Black made her look too pale.(AFfC, Ch.24 Cersei V)

But seriously,

 

18 hours ago, Yet Another Stark Fan said:

the Silent Sisters seems to be an equivalent way

Yeah, only the black brothers are allowed to talk, and visit their families, and keep their identity and do heaps of things other than tend their dead. On the other hand, maybe the silent sisters have a few tricks of the trade for dealing with the wights.

[Orphalesion]

7 minutes ago, Walda said:

Yeah, only the black brothers are allowed to talk, and visit their families, and keep their identity and do heaps of things other than tend their dead. On the other hand, maybe the silent sisters have a few tricks of the trade for dealing with the wights.

Let's not argue about which inhumane cult with lifetime membership is the worse one.

I know this comes down to personal preference, but if my only choice was between either death or joining the NW/SS, I'd rather be a Silent Sister in the Reach or the Crownlands than a NW member on the fracking Wall.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

34 minutes ago, Walda said:

Well, not every woman wants to take the black:

But seriously,

 

Yeah, only the black brothers are allowed to talk, and visit their families, and keep their identity and do heaps of things other than tend their dead. On the other hand, maybe the silent sisters have a few tricks of the trade for dealing with the wights.

I doubt that most of the Black Brothers are allowed to visit their families. I personally think that right is only reserved for lordlings (who also happen to be more traceable if they desert), and possibly only the ones who joined out of free will. I may be wrong, since the only example we have of a black brother going on a family visit, is Benjen (and it seems that Jon would've gotten permission at some point as well), so it may happen more often, but there's no indication that it does. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

A hopeful thought, indeed, but as noted, this hasn't yet worked in the US armed forces, a modern and (once) enlightened society. In Westeros, it would be centuries, if ever. And while this was going on, raising all the babies and young children would have their own impacts on "readiness." (And no, "moon tea" is not infallible. Particularly if taken by choice.)

I do agree, however I feel that if The Lord Commander took a more Littlefinger/Bloodraven style approach and based his rule on political maneuvering and a strong espionage network then problems amongst the men of The Watch could be somewhat helped along. 

If the LC based his rule on fear then a similiar result could perhaps be achieved. If someone like Khal Drogo or The Mountain were in charge at Castle Black, and he dissaproved of the evil Watchmens tendencies, then brothers may be put off such horrible behaviour, for fear of having to deal with Drogo/Gregor and an assembly of his henchmen later. 

To be realistic, at this point it would take Dany and her army taking up residence along The Wall to make any significant change.

[Protagoras]

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Also PFFFFFFFT! Joining the cultist border patrol in the worst place in all of Westeros is not a "right"...in most cases it's a sentence! Most of the members of the Night's Watch are at the  Wall because they were either pressured to take the black (usually at the PAIN OF DEATH) or outright forced.

Where is there any "right" in there? Why force more innocents to suffer that fate?

The "right" is that you are allowed to do so if you please. ie - it is forbidden for one sex to join = a sexist structure. And sexism is seen by many, including me as a bad thing.

That very few women would like to join such a structure is irrelevant. The issue is that they can´t from a gender perspective.It´s one (of many) roadblocks in the way for equality.

Edit: See it like this - if a man get sentenced he get a choice between death and the Wall. A woman would only have the choice of death, and suddenly those rape risks sounds less bad. Most people do prefer living. Now, what Westeros also have is another sexist organization known as the Silent sisters and similiar, which gives women a much better option than the wall. So, of course women in Westeros wouldn´t want equality in this, since they already get preferential treatment on this issue.

[Lady bonehead]

Historically when women have been conscripted into armies it has generally been as prostitutes. Something similar happened to female convicts who were transported to Australia, which is a situation somewhat analogous to the NW.  

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Another time, another context. It's not just to not make men uncomfortably. It's because they see women as weak, as caretakers, as babymakers rather than warriors. 

[YOVMO]

On 3/21/2017 at 3:58 PM, Brandon Baratheon said:

When characters like Theon and Tyrion think about taking black they complain there are no women in NW. If women take black the watchers can marry and produce NEW WATCHERS for the Wall. 

I am not sure what use the women of westeros would be to the watch. Will they be rangers? No. Will they be builders? No. I guess they could be useful as stewards when they aren't being raped half to death...remember, a substantial number of men are at the wall because they are convicted rapers 

 

also, women don't really need the ability to take the black. At no point do we see a woman sentenced to death or dismemberment where the choice of a life of hard cold service in a castle filled with criminals would be a valid choice for them

[Weirwood Ghost]

Reading all this makes me wonder why Martin didn't create an underground group of women of arms. With all the attributes of wonder woman that would be a sight to see...10,000 warrior women all fighting the White Walkers when they are all in sync "at that time of the month".

I'm day dreaming again *ahem*

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

wonder why Martin didn't create an underground group of women of arms

I think for the same reason he doesn't have any fightin' wimmen in chain mail bikinis. He's addressed this topic often...

[Aetta]

'Cause they're women.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Renly made Brienne of Tarth member of his Kingsguard. So unusual things can happen.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

16 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Let's not argue about which inhumane cult with lifetime membership is the worse one.

I know this comes down to personal preference, but if my only choice was between either death or joining the NW/SS, I'd rather be a Silent Sister in the Reach or the Crownlands than a NW member on the fracking Wall.

Do we even really know whether or not the Silent Sisters are a lifetime membership order?

Sure, we do have examples of women who were forced to join (Rohanne Tarbeck, Cyrelle Tarbeck and Fireball's wife are three known ones), but really, it seems to me that most women join on their own volition, albeit it seems mostly because they've been disowned by their family and have nowhere else to go and/or they want to redeem themselves for some sinful action.

But I never really got the impression that they could never leave the Silent Sisters and I don't think that they'd be executed if they did decide to leave the order like they do with the Night's Watch.

[Walda]

17 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Now, what Westeros also have is another sexist organization known as the Silent sisters and similiar, which gives women a much better option than the wall.

There is nothing that indicates that female criminals are offered the option of joining the Silent sisters. It seems that in Westeros, female criminals have no option but the imprisonment/dismemberment/death that the Kings Justice demands.

The Silent sisters are an option for widows with no resources to provide for themselves, or (as Theon suggests to Asha) whose menfolk won't provide for them. Their tongues are cut out, not as a punishment or atonement, but so their silence is non-optional (unlike the brothers on the Quiet Isle, which would be a fairer comparison than the Night's Watch). I'd say the cut out tongue is a strong sign the silent sisters are for life, too.

14 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Will they be rangers? No. Will they be builders?

Wow, your assessment of the capacity of female labour is lower than that of the 18th century British penal system, and the 18th century British industrial system. They had women breaking rocks, building roads, working in coal mines, labouring in brick works, cotton gins, wool mills, and on farms. The law did not segregate prisons by age or sex or offence. The convict colonies had no problem with dispatching women to the furthest outposts. They were not exactly a model for equity and women's rights, but working class women (and children) were expected to work, and yes, they were builders.

ETA: “I have heard that in the Sunset Kingdoms men take solemn vows to keep chaste and father no children, but live only for their duty. Is it not so?”
“It is,” Arstan said, when the question was put. “There are many such orders. The maesters of the Citadel, the septons and septas who serve the Seven, the silent sisters of the dead, the Kingsguard and the Night’s Watch …”(ASoS, Ch.23 Daenerys II)

Strongly implies that all the above are intended to serve for life. Although it is Barristan, who doesn't always remember things straight.

ETA:“The silent sisters never speak,” said Podrick. “I heard they don’t have any tongues.”
Septon Meribald smiled. “Mothers have been cowing their daughters with that tale since I was your age. There was no truth to it then and there is none now. A vow of silence is an act of contrition, a sacrifice by which we prove our devotion to the Seven Above. For a mute to take a vow of silence would be akin to a legless man giving up the dance.”(AFfC, Ch.31 Brienne VI)

OK,  they don't have their tongues cut out, and the speechlessness is an act of contrition. But not one that is offered to criminals instead of a death sentence.

[Protagoras]

1 hour ago, Walda said:

There is nothing that indicates that female criminals are offered the option of joining the Silent sisters. It seems that in Westeros, female criminals have no option but the imprisonment/dismemberment/death that the Kings Justice demands.

Not the Silent sisters necessary but similiar organizations.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2015/06

"George was asked what options female criminals had to avoid execution -- they can't take the black, but was there an accepted thing they could do otherwise? George did mention there were "various" female orders of septas and the likes, and then he focused in particular on the silent sisters, which he specifically called them a "mystic order" who take vows of silence and tend to the dead".

It is very clear from this that there are other orders apart from the sisters that DO take criminals and that the sisters are more focused on since it might be seen as the "upper class" choice (which is the people we follow in the series - the 1%). Marla Sunderland was sent there after her crime of rebelling against the Targs and she was noble. 

Edit: To quote your quote of Barristan "It is,” Arstan said, when the question was put. “There are many such orders". 

Quote

The Silent sisters are an option for widows with no resources to provide for themselves, or (as Theon suggests to Asha) whose menfolk won't provide for them. Their tongues are cut out, not as a punishment or atonement, but so their silence is non-optional (unlike the brothers on the Quiet Isle, which would be a fairer comparison than the Night's Watch). I'd say the cut out tongue is a strong sign the silent sisters are for life, too.

As you found youself, you are wrong about the tongues, but I do not doubt that it is for life (with maybe some exceptions). My point is that it is a better option, less harsh and more forgiving than the Wall. And that said reason for this is based on sexism - women get preferential treatment, since it is seen as less ok to execute them or mutilate them in comparison to menfolk. We see this all the time. Sure, that whore Tarly judged will not like that lye in her crotch, but it certainly beats getting 7 of your fingers chopped off. And I don´t doubt that Argella Durrandon disliked being stripped naked, escored to the person who killed her dad and was more or less forced to marry him. But the other option, which would have been forced on a man, was death. Argella Durrandon is no victim. She was stupid to resist the Targs instead of negotiationg after her fathers death (which could in theory have made her a lady paramount) but in comparison with the Harren Hoare (who also defied) she came off easy and should be happy that her head is attacked to her body. 

The silent sisters are also not only an option for poor people, but a way to enforce patriarchy. A woman might be sent there because she is to stubborn or that she needs to get rid off (again, where they had executed the males instead). Certainly, living in a cloister enviroment is not a dream job, but it beats being dead and it beats having no future. In contrast, the Wall takes away your future. And you get sent there because you have committed a crime. It stands to reason that a cloister is less harsh. 

“Which brings us back to the five remaining daughters of Elys and Alys. The eldest had been left terribly scarred by the same pox that killed her sisters, so she became a septa. Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy.”

The woman in the quote above decided that she had no other choices than the sisters. I doubt many people think that way of the Wall. 

[Bhotharh]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Wow, your assessment of the capacity of female labour is lower than that of the 18th century British penal system, and the 18th century British industrial system. They had women breaking rocks, building roads, working in coal mines, labouring in brick works, cotton gins, wool mills, and on farms. The law did not segregate prisons by age or sex or offence. The convict colonies had no problem with dispatching women to the furthest outposts. They were not exactly a model for equity and women's rights, but working class women (and children) were expected to work, and yes, they were builders.

I guess no one denies that women can do hard labour and be very resilient but the Night's Watch is "the shield that guards the realm of men".

Even if the rangers are their "true fighting heart", they make sure that every man has at least basic fighting skills. You stay a recruit as long as you cannot defend yourself sufficiently (Sam being the exception that proves the rule). If under attack, like at Castle Black, they all fight.

 Every man who wore the black walked the Wall, and every man was expected to take up steel in its defense [...] - AGOT JON V

I see but very few women holding their own against attacking men (or monsters). The vast majority are weaker and tire sooner than their male comrades, and yes, that includes things like shooting arrows, slinging rocks, lifting oil barrels (or whatever non hand to hand combat) or carrying off injured people and putting out fires.

If you could decide who to send to the border patrol, would you pick the ones who are less likely to actually fight off the enemy? There is a reason that even today you seldom see armed forces putting women on the front line. 

[Prof. Cecily]

On 3/22/2017 at 1:51 AM, Lord Wraith said:

Poor Dany Flint.

Indeed.

 

[Praetor Xyn]

As has been stated, way too many men were sent there for rape. Not a good idea. Everything has been covered pretty well in this thread.

[Trigger Warning]

It's a standing army first and a penal colony second. Whether women have a a similar option when being punished for a crime is neither here nor there. 

Introducing women into that mix just brings in needless complications and for what? I don't think they particularly give a shit about equal opportunities, especially in a conscripted army freezing their balls off in the far North. 
 

[Aegon VII]

The nights watch already has female members, the whores at mole's town