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Let's wildly speculate about Hotah's stupid, pointless plot.


Renly's Banana

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32 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

This is true, however that part remains mostly unexplored in his PoV (contrary to Davos), which brings me to my main critique to the series of being too focused on nobility.

BTW: I don't understand the obsession with Darkstar. Apart of having a cool nickname, there is - so far - little of interest in him

Most of the obsession is wondering what the heck anyone finds to be obsessed about with him. A lot of posters refer to him as Dorkstar.

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32 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

This is true, however that part remains mostly unexplored in his PoV (contrary to Davos), which brings me to my main critique to the series of being too focused on nobility.

BTW: I don't understand the obsession with Darkstar. Apart of having a cool nickname, there is - so far - little of interest in him

For me as well, so much about Dorne reads like filler.  For me the only truly interesting Dornishman was Oberyn.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He could be dangerous because he knows what really happened with Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella.

Or because he knows someone else actually tried to kill Myrcella and he saved her life by blocking another blade.

Or because he knows that it wasn't even Myrcella but her cousin Rosamund who lost an ear.

Or because he knows that Doran gave shelter and aid to Dany and/or Viserys at some point.

Or because he knows what really happened at the Tower of Joy and/or what really went on with his cousin Ashara.

Or he could be capable of wielding two swords at a time while standing on his head and whistling dixie.

Remember that book 5 and book 4 are one book, split geographically, and we didn't know Darkstar existed before AFFC. And we didn't get much info out of Dorne before then either.

 

Fair enough. What I find odd is how fast Dorne becomes a major player in the books. In the 3 first books they almost don't exist in terms of actual shit going on. The first real appearance from someone important is Oberyn in the third book just to say a bunch of things to mountain and die. I hope in the next 2 books Martin explains more about them. 

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6 hours ago, Eamonn the Dragonknight said:

The interesting thing about Hotah is that, like several others, his chapters arent his own name...

Most character given this treatment have either lost themselves (theon, arya, sansa) or are on a journey of self-actualisation (vicatarion, Aeron, Baristan, Quentyn). The common theme is that these chapter titles indicate an unfinished story and a character in a major moment of change.

I really don't buy into this theory, simply because we've had characters who are lost or in hiding or going through an existential crisis both past and present and they still had their names. Arya was essentially running for her life all throughout the second book under the guise of a hundred different identities, yet her name never changed. Tyrion is super lost for about half of ADWD, yet his name never changes from Tyrion. You could also argue that Brienne's journey is one of self-actualization and finding her place in the world. Certainly much more than Selmy. 

Exactly WHY Martin started this weird trend in Feast, however, I have no idea. Maybe that really was his official explanation for it, I dunno, but it's still super flawed and inconsistent if it is. 

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He could be dangerous because he knows what really happened with Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella.

Or because he knows someone else actually tried to kill Myrcella and he saved her life by blocking another blade.

Or because he knows that it wasn't even Myrcella but her cousin Rosamund who lost an ear.

Or because he knows that Doran gave shelter and aid to Dany and/or Viserys at some point.

Or because he knows what really happened at the Tower of Joy and/or what really went on with his cousin Ashara.

Settle down, Preston. 

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17 hours ago, Eamonn the Dragonknight said:

The interesting thing about Hotah is that, like several others, his chapters aren't his own name...

Most character given this treatment have either lost themselves (theon, arya, sansa) or are on a journey of self-actualisation (vicatarion, Aeron, Baristan, Quentyn). The common theme is that these chapter titles indicate an unfinished story and a character in a major moment of change.

One explanation I've seen is that these chapters echo important legends or put the narrator in the position of becoming an archetype. The chapter title refers to an important hero or a story from the past or someone in a prophecy. Or maybe the character's POV serves as a model for something that will happen in the arc of a more central figure in the plot.

An interesting brief note of comparison between Hotah and Darkstar just came up on another thread:

Maybe Hotah's special quality is that he is half in light and half in shadow, and this gives him an ability to see things that others can't see.

I think that Shadows are often associated with weapons, for what it's worth, although I'm sure they are more complex than just a single layer of meaning.

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16 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

What I find odd is how fast Dorne becomes a major player in the books. In the 3 first books they almost don't exist in terms of actual shit going on. The first real appearance from someone important is Oberyn in the third book just to say a bunch of things to mountain and die. I hope in the next 2 books Martin explains more about them. 

Partially this will just come into a matter of space in order to build the world. We haven’t been shown the Westerlands at all either yet, and didn’t see the Stormlands, the Reach, or the Iron Islands until clash.

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18 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

For me as well, so much about Dorne reads like filler.  For me the only truly interesting Dornishman was Oberyn.

Oberyn was great, but I actually really enjoyed (especially upon first realizing it) that Doran had been plotting and making moves for years. His major secret didn't work out the way he hoped of course, but there are still quite a few wheels in motion that keep Dorne interesting for me.

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On 3/23/2017 at 2:15 PM, Ser Kinslayer said:

Speaking of Oberyn, he is said to have considered Darkstar "poison." Why could that be? Who is Darkstar?

In all probability just a son of the High Hermitage branch of House Dayne. For more crackpot ideas Oberyn's son or the hidden away Jaehaerys (son of Aerys and Rhaella).

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 10:14 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Partially this will just come into a matter of space in order to build the world. We haven’t been shown the Westerlands at all either yet, and didn’t see the Stormlands, the Reach, or the Iron Islands until clash.

 

Since there are only two books left I think that GRRM , if he is going to take us to these places, had better get moving.  More likely we haven't seen these places, or they haven't become overly important to the plot because they aren't important to the plot.  GRRM originally planned this as what, a three book series?  His publishers IIRC got him to expand it to seven books.  But to me books 4&5 had so little that actually moved the plot forward, I mean characters like Quentyn were introduced, did their little bit and died all in one book, that it seemed like those books were written because his publishers wanted a 7 book series.  I'll admit that if "Game of Thrones" had been more like "Dance of Dragons" I think I would have been done with the whole series after that.

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:01 AM, Joey Crows said:

Oberyn was great, but I actually really enjoyed (especially upon first realizing it) that Doran had been plotting and making moves for years. His major secret didn't work out the way he hoped of course, but there are still quite a few wheels in motion that keep Dorne interesting for me.

Yeah see, not for me.  Doran's harebrained scheme just didn't interest me at all and quite frankly felt (to me) like it was just added on.  I understood Oberyn burning for vengeance, I just never got and emotion from Doran or Areo Hotah or any of the rest and there is no explanation for what DarkStar did. Dorne feels like GRRM discovered he needed to write another 10,000 words.

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2 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Yeah see, not for me.  Doran's harebrained scheme just didn't interest me at all and quite frankly felt (to me) like it was just added on.  I understood Oberyn burning for vengeance, I just never got and emotion from Doran or Areo Hotah or any of the rest and there is no explanation for what DarkStar did. Dorne feels like GRRM discovered he needed to write another 10,000 words.

There is no explanation for what Darkstar did yet anyway. I assume that will be forthcoming. Otherwise, wtf? And Doran's "harebrained scheme" at the very least, served to create a scenario where Viserion and Rhaegal get unleashed. Which seems to be a major thing, in that now all 3 dragons are free to do something other than wait in the basement of a pyramid. In addition, we learn some of the more subtle political insights that IMO make this story great. Doran and Oberyn worked hand in hand to bring justice/revenge to the Lannisters, Dorne supported/supports a Targaryen return to power (which could affect FAegon's plot), the various Sand Snakes are currently pursuing actions that will affect the events to come. 

Just my opinion, but those Dornish storylines showcase some of the strategic moves that could lead to major changes to the power structure of Westeros at best, and at worst provide a deeper insight into the politics of the realm outside of King's Landing.

Also, how could we have this story of the 7 kingdoms without getting at least a peek at what goes on in Dorne? I mean, it's at least as important as the whole Baelish in the Vale storyline. Maybe it means something really big, maybe it leads to something fairly important, or maybe it just helps us to understand the workings of another region of Westeros.

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In Feast for Crows, Areo gives us much (and mostly objective) information about the situation in Dorne and house Martell and introduces the Sand Snakes. Arianne is biased because she loves the Sand Snakes and hates Doran and Quentyn and Arys is a foreigner. Probably Areo has more information to give us about Daynes. I believe he will meet Wylla (Edric and Jon's wet nurse) and give us information about Ned's and Jon's days at Starfall.

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On 3/22/2017 at 2:31 AM, Renly's Banana said:

I still have absolutely no idea why Areo was made a POV, when the role of Doran's "POV" as it were, could have easily been filled by Arienne.

 

I actuallh like that big H was given a POV so we could see Doran through his eyes. You are right, it could have been handled through Arienne, but i think it would have been a disservice to Doran. Hotah gives us a picture of Doran's inner mental and spiritual strength that ARienne is too young, too biased and too naive to really understand 

On 3/22/2017 at 2:31 AM, Renly's Banana said:

There was no need for that single Oakheart chapter either, that too could have been an Arienne chapter.

 

Here you are 100% right 

 

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The problem with Hotah is that all the interesting theories centre around what he'll witness in the future, or what information he'll be privy to. He appears to be a nothing character created solely to provide an objective POV on certain events in Dorne so that certain secrets can be preserved without upsetting the prevailing narrative structure.

I say "appears": I would like to think that there'll be some crisis of conscience forthcoming for him, but exactly what that would be, I don't know. Perhaps Hotah is thrust into a difficult situation where he has to take the initiative, and his decision badly botches Doran's long term plan. Perhaps he baulks at some awful thing he's asked to do.

Perhaps his "heart in conflict with itself" moment will have to do with Doran's wife. It's a thin connection, but they're both from Norvos, and Hotah mentions still feeling like a foreigner after all these years in Dorne. If he still feels some lingering affiliation to Norvos, what will happen if Dorne and Norvos come into conflict?

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On 3/22/2017 at 5:53 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Fair enough. What I find odd is how fast Dorne becomes a major player in the books. In the 3 first books they almost don't exist in terms of actual shit going on. The first real appearance from someone important is Oberyn in the third book just to say a bunch of things to mountain and die. I hope in the next 2 books Martin explains more about them. 

Yeah me too. I think Dorne would make for a great spin-off.

On 3/22/2017 at 9:26 PM, Renly's Banana said:

<snip

Settle down, Preston. 

Pardon me, but I'm female and not a vidder. Nor am I named Preston. I did have ancestors named Jacobs though...  *insert thinky face*  

I watched one of PJ's Dornish Master Plan theories and while I liked it at first, he went off the rails by the end.

These are my own thoughts, because frankly I didn't stick around PJ's channel long enough to get to predictions. Also I've had plenty of time to wonder about Ser Dorkstar. :D

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

These are my own thoughts, because frankly I didn't stick around PJ's channel long enough to get to predictions. Also I've had plenty of time to wonder about Ser Dorkstar. :D

I don't think PJ even has tinfoil on Darkstar, does he? Just that he thinks he's innocent.

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3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't know. I stopped watching his vids after the first DMP one.

You should get involved. It's good stuff. Even if half of it's wrong, it's still an interesting possibility to consider that Martell is playing a much longer game than it seems. Certainly more interesting than if we take Doran's stuff at face value.

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