Knight Of Winter

A little psychology: Myers-Briggs personality types for ASOIAF characters

35 posts in this topic

Myers-Briggs test

 

Myers-Briggs is a psychological test aiming to categorize people in 16 categories based on the way their mind works. It has become a favouritepastime of mine, and seeing how it's pretty popular all around the internet (just type mbti+name of popular show in google search and see for yourself ;) ), I've decided to make one for all of ASOIAF major characters :) 

Basic principle is this: each out of 16 types consists of 4 letters, each representing one facet of their personality. First letter is I or E, second S or N, third F or T and the last P or J. Simplified, here's what they represent:

I = introversion. Directed towards oneself, towards inner world.

E= extroversion. Direction towards outer world.

(in colloquial sense, these two may have different meanings, introvert signifying shy/recluse person while extrovert meaning outgoing, social persona. In Myers-Briggs test, these often, but not necessarily correspond to I or E letters. There are shy extroverts and outgoing introverts – for basic difference is which „realm“ do they prefer – inner or outer)

S = sensor. Orientation towards firm, realistic, material world.

N = intuitive. Orientation towards abstract thinking, concept and ideas.

F = feeling. Guided by subjective: emotions, values. What is right and what is wrong?
T = thinking. Guided by objective: logic. What is correct and what is incorrect?

P = prefers flexibility, open ends, adapts to the situation

J = prefers order, structure and planning.

Now, these are not absolute dichotomies. Every person, for example, takes stimuli form both realistic (S) and abstract (N) world – it's just a matter of degree.
 

Congitive functions

Aka „advanced“ degree of understanding Myers Briggs test. They signify 8 possible ways (Fi, Fe, Ni, Ne, Ti, Te, Si and Se) that mind works and define each of 16 types by having different 4 combinations of these functions. They do indeed provide deeper and better understanding of Myers Briggs, and I dound them quite interesting. For more, I'll let this website speak (in spoiler tag):
 

Spoiler

What are these “Cognitive Functions?”

Glad you asked. Cognitive functions are the technical term for “Modes of processing information and making decisions based on your Myers-Briggs type.” Each type has four (out of a possible eight) cognitive functions, which they use in a specific order. Identifying which functions you use – and in what order – is the most accurate way to type yourself or anyone else. The functions necessitate the four-letter type, not the other way around. This is why the best way to determine your type is to either visit a practitioner who types using cognitive functions, or to educate yourself on them and determine which ones you use.

Tell me more about these functions!

Of the eight cognitive functions, four are extroverted (oriented toward action and interaction with the world around you) and four are introverted (oriented toward analysis and reflection). Regardless of whether you’re an extrovert or an introvert, we each have two extroverted functions and two introverted functions. Extroverts just prefer using their main extroverted function over their main introverted function and vice versa.

Of the eight cognitive functions, four are perceptive (focused on taking in new information and examining possibilities) and four are decision-based (focused on reaching conclusions and implementing plans). Regardless of whether you’re a perceiver or a judger, we each have two perceptive functions and two judging ones.

Overall, you have one extroverted perceptive function, one introverted perceptive function, one extroverted judgment function and one introverted judgment function.

Of those functions, one is an intuitive function, one is a sensing function, one is a thinking function and one is a feeling function. This explains why Thinkers occasionally have feelings and Feelers occasionally make logical decisions. It also explains why Perceivers can sometimes be very structured and Judgers can sometimes go with the flow. We’re all a bit of everything, but your type is ultimately determined by which cognitive functions you have and what order you use them in.

So what are my options?

Great, let’s get to it. Here is an overview of the eight cognitive functions:

Perceptive Functions:

Extroverted Intuition (Ne):

Extroverted intuition generates new possibilities, synthesizes abstract ideas and picks up on connections in the external environment. Extroverted intuition is capable of entertaining multiple contradictory ideas simultaneously as it sees almost every side to every situation. It is predominantly a future-oriented function that examines all the possibilities of what could happen next.

People who lead with extroverted intuition are usually excitable, entrepreneurial and highly creative. They intrinsically enjoy debating ideas, exploring various interests and they view almost everything in life as a challenge. They are constantly thinking about what to do or experience next, but have a difficult time sticking with just one idea or plan long-term.

Introverted Intuition (Ni):

Introverted intuition forms a framework of how the world works based on thorough, abstract analysis of past and current events. It aims to identify the ‘essence’ of ideas, theories, people and situations in order to fit them into a larger schema. Introverted intuition is a forward thinking function that seeks to identify the optimal or most likely outcome of future events.

People who lead with introverted intuition are usually intense, focused and highly perceptive of inconsistencies that arise in their external environment. They enjoy riddles, puzzles and wordplay. They often experience ‘hunches’ or ‘aha’ moments that they may identify as epiphanies. Their intense foresight is a product of their future-oriented introverted intuition subtly pairing with their inferior extroverted sensing.

Extroverted Sensing (Se):

Extroverted sensing is focused on taking in the world as it exists in the present moment. It is highly in tune with the sights, smells, sounds and general physical stimulus that surrounds it. Extroverted sensing lives and thrives in the moment, more so than any other function.

People who lead with extroverted sensing are often naturally athletic, highly impulsive and enjoy ever-changing stimuli. They place a high value on aesthetics and lust after the ‘finer things in life.’ Extroverted sensors usually aren’t interested in over-analyzing a situation – they simply see what they want and they go for it. These types tend to exude a natural sense of confidence, as they are usually quite sure of who they are and what they want.

Introverted Sensing (Si):

Introverted sensing is a detail-oriented, information storage function. It takes note of facts, events and occurrences exactly as they happen and categorizes them, somewhat like an internal filing system. This is a past-oriented function that dwells predominantly on what has been and it often gives way to nostalgia.

People who lead with introverted sensing are organized and structured, as they believe in being prepared for any potential mishap. They hold tradition in high esteem and believe that the tried and true method is always the best way of getting things done. Introverted sensors believe that the future will repeat the past, more so than any other type.

Judging/Decision-Making Functions:

Introverted Feeling (Fi):

Introverted feeling is the in-depth analysis of emotional processes and morality. It seeks to break down emotions to their core and understand them as wholly as possible. It also develops a strong internal system of right and wrong, which the Fi user employs to make decisions. Introverted feeling searches for the deeper meaning behind absolutely everything. Introverted feelers are highly aware of and in touch with their own emotions, and when they put themselves in the shoes of others, they can often feel their pain or joy on a personal level.

People who lead with introverted feeling are compassionate, analytical and often highly concerned with moral issues. They are usually highly creative or artistic, and may feel as though nobody else truly understands who they are deep down. Because their feelings are introverted, Fi-dominant types aren’t always comfortable expressing how they feel outwardly. They have a rich inner world that they want to guard and yet they often secretly wish that others were capable of tapping into it.

Extroverted Feeling (Fe):

Extroverted feeling is highly concerned with maintaining social norms and keeping the peace. It is a decision-making function that strives to do what is best for the group and picks up naturally on the emotions of others. It is a mirroring function that may cause the user to have trouble deciphering their own feelings without the input of others. Extroverted feeling requires social interaction to stay fulfilled, more so than any other function.

People who lead with extroverted feeling are highly reactive to the feelings of others. They seek out social interaction relentlessly, as they feel the happiest and most alive when they are in the company of loved ones. They seek to maintain harmony and keep the peace at all costs – they cannot fully enjoy themselves unless the people around them are healthy, happy and comfortable.

Extroverted Thinking (Te):

Extroverted thinking seeks to impose order on the external environment as efficiently and logically as possible. It values productivity above all else and is a results-based, action-oriented function. Extroverted thinking naturally implements concrete plans for accomplishing goals and is quick to make decisions.

People who lead with extroverted thinking are frank, decisive and highly productive in every capacity. They are natural leaders in the workplace as they are quick to take charge and impose order. Dominant extroverted thinkers may come across as bossy or opinionated to those who lack the function, but in reality they are simply pointing out what they believe to be the most efficient course of action for everyone involved.

Introverted Thinking (Ti):

Introverted thinking is an information-gathering function that seeks to form a framework for how the world works on a concrete, tangible level. It is adept at understanding systems and naturally notices inconsistencies within them. Introverted thinking seeks a thorough understanding of how things work – it wants to deconstruct things to look at the individual parts and see how things function as a whole.

People who lead with introverted thinking are logical, systematic and objective to a fault. They enjoy finding ‘short-cuts’ that increase efficiency within a given system. Ti-dominants are often heavily introverted, as they take a great deal of time to understand how things work before they feel comfortable sharing or acting on their knowledge.

Which type uses which functions?

It is important to note that you cannot pick and choose cognitive functions: They work in specific groups, some of which are mutually exclusive. For example, you cannot have extroverted feeling AND introverted feeling: You have one or the other.

Also, the order in which you use each function is incredibly important. While looking at the types, think of which functions you use all the time, which you use some of the time, and which you rarely use. You may not even notice yourself using your third and fourth functions on a regular basis, so it’s best to identify which two functions you use most regularly.

How do I know what order I use my functions in?

It can be confusing trying to figure this out. We’re often more aware of our second function than our first, as we are somewhat removed from our second function and can see it more objectively.

Think of it like this: You are in a swimming pool and your first (or “dominant”) function is the water. It’s everywhere. It’s what you do without thinking about it. It’s your natural first impulse to every situation – it comes to you so naturally that you may not even notice yourself using it.

Your second function (known as your auxiliary function) is like the ladder, or the waterslide. To an extent, you can choose to use it or not use it. You are very aware of its presence. You can’t make it go away, but you can temporarily ignore it. You have to swim through the water to get there.

Your third and fourth functions (Or your “tertiary” and “inferior” functions) are less accessible to you, as you may not fully develop them until you are nearing middle age. When you’re younger, your third and fourth functions are primarily called upon when you are under stress. If you started drowning in the water, your tertiary and inferior functions would be the life raft that you cling to. Eventually, you can integrate them to become pool toys that you use on a regular basis. Once you’ve done this, you will finally have a well-balanced, relaxing pool experience. We can also refer to this as type actualization.

The breakdown of functions and the order in which they’re used is as follows for each type:

ENFP: Ne – Fi – Te – Si
INFP: Fi – Ne – Si – Te
INFJ: Ni – Fe – Ti – Se
ENFJ: Fe – Ni – Se – Ti
ISTJ: Si – Te – Fi – Ne
ESTJ: Te – Si – Ne – Fi
ISTP: Ti – Se – Ni – Fe
ESTP: Se – Ti – Fe – Ni
INTJ: Ni – Te – Fi – Se
INTP: Ti – Ne – Si – Fe
ENTJ: Te – Ni – Se – Fi
ENTP: Ne – Ti – Fe – Si
ISFJ: Si – Fe – Ti – Ne
ISFP: Fi – Se – Ni – Te
ESFJ: Fe – Si – Ne – Ti
ESFP: Se – Fi – Te – Ni

Any type can, theoretically, access any of the eight cognitive functions, but tapping into a function that is not part of your type’s stacking will be an incredibly exhausting experience.

 

 
Characters


Starks

 

Ned – classic ISTJ.

Catelyn – ISFJ

Robb – ESTJ

Sansa – ESFJ.

Arya – ISFP. I've often seen her mistyped as ISTP, which she can't be

Bran, Rickon – haven't got much idea here. Any ideas?

Luwin - INTP

 

 

Lannisters

 

Tywin – INTJ.

Jaime – ESFP

Cersei – ESFJ, a very bad one. Unhealthy Fe (emotional manipulation) all over the place.

Tyrion – classical ENTP

Kevan – ISTJ

 

 

Martells

 

Doran – INTJ. I've had difficulties with this one, but in the end I thought INTJ suits Doran best

Arianne – ESFP

Oberyn – I'm torn between ENFP and ESFP, though I'm leaning more towards ENFP.

Quentyn – I'm at loss here. I'd guess ISFJ

Areo Hotah – ISTJ

 

 

Greyjoys

 

Theon – ESTP

Asha – ESTP

Aeron – taking into account his previous (pre-drowning) and current personality, I'll guess an Fe-dom. Probably ENFJ.

Victarion – not sure about him. When I see someone as quiet, dutiful and non-overly emotional like Victarion, my first guess would be ISTJ, though I'm uncertain in his case

Euron – ENTJ, and a crazy one

 

 

Other great houses

 

Olenna – ESTJ

Loras – I guess ISFP

Margaery – maybe ENFJ

Lysa – INFP. In order – unhealthy Fi (it's all about meeee), unhealthy Ne (paranoid) and unhealthy Si (clinging to the past)

 

 

Night's Watch

 

Jon Snow – hmmm...my best guess would be ISFP

Samwell – INFP

Jeor – ESTJ.

Alliser – ISTJ.

 

 

Wildlings

 

Mance – ENFJ

Ygritte – ESTP

Tormund – ESFP

 

 

Court in KL

 

King Robert – ESFP

Varys – Ni-dom, ergo InxJ. I guess the third letter depends on how to cynically (Te) or idealistically (Fe) one views him. I'll go with latter and say INFJ.

Littlefinger – ENTP is what I think, though I've seen lots of poeple arguing for INTJ.

Pycelle – some kind of Ti-Fe-Ne-Si combination. My best guess is INTP

Barristan – ISTJ

Renly – ENFP?

Qyburn – INTP

 

 

 

 

Stannis's court

 

Stannis – ISTJ

Davos – ISFP

Mel - ?

 

 

Dany's court

 

Dany – INFP. This one was hard, but in the end I think Fi-Ne combination suits her best

Jorah – ISTJ

Daario – ESTP

Hizdarhrhr – ESFJ ?

Shavepate – ENTJ

 

 

Other non-great-houses nobles

 

Brienne – ISFP

Roose – INTJ

Greatjon – ESTJ

Manderly – ENFJ

Rodrik the Reader – INTP

 

 

Historical

 

Aerys – ESFP

Rhaegar – INFJ. Great example of unhealthy Ni

Lyanna – ENFP

Brandon – ESxP

 

 

Anyhow, I find MBTI types quite interesting to type and discuss. Any comments and discussions are more than welcome

Edited by Knight Of Winter

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(X)NTP here (X = tested as both an E and an I, within 10 of neutral). Isn't it generally understood that typing those younger than about 14 is meaningless, as their personalities haven't settled yet?

Edited by deja vu
better word choice

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I'm surprised. My evaluation of a lot of characters differs greatly, especially the Northern folks.

Starks

Ned - ISTJ (okay, no argument here)

Cat - ESFJ

Robb - ENXP

Sansa - ISFJ

Arya - ESFP

Bran - EXTP (really hard to estimate)

Rickon - no clue

Luwin - XNTP

Night' Watch

Jon Snow - IXTP

Samwell - INXP

Jeor - INTP

Alliser - no clue

Aemon - XNTP

Wildlings

Mance - ENTP

Ygritte - ESFJ

Tormund - ESFP

 

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3 hours ago, deja vu said:

(X)NTP here (X = tested as both an E and an I, within 10 of neutral). Isn't it generally understood that typing those younger than about 14 is meaningless, as their personalities haven't settled yet?

In real life - maybe so. But in ASOIAF we're given so well-developed personalities for e.g. Arya or Sansa that I feel comfortable enough typing them.
 

51 minutes ago, Bhotharh said:

I'm surprised. My evaluation of a lot of characters differs greatly, especially the Northern folks.

Well, I'm always up for discussion :) . Let's see:

Sansa - an obvious extrovert, constantly seeking stimuli (in her case - people) from the outer world. In Wintrefell, she was comfortable being the head of her social circle. She likes social gatherings like tourneys or feasts. Very adept at meeting new people and connecting with them.

I don't think her time at KL would count here - she was friendless and scared shitless for the most of her time there. But at soon as she escaped and found some measure of security - she returned back to her natural social self (especially obvious in ADWD or TWOW spoiler chapter)

Catelyn - on the other hand, is IMO more directed to the inner world. She doesn't necessarily like big social gatherings, she's quite comfortavle being alone, she likes her small inner world (Ned&kids) by far the best - overall, doesn't much sound like an extrovert.

Arya - basically, has way,way too strong Fi to be an extrovert. She constantly spends big amount of time in her head, analyzing values and ethics or the world and comparing it the her values. In short, her Fi is her first and best reaction to everything - it's her dominant function, not Se.

Robb - generally doesn't seem like he's much concerned with ideas, concepts, symbolism and other stuff associated with N - he's way too practical for that. Also, for an ENxP, as you type him, I see very little Ne in him.

Jon Snow - again, too strong Fi for him to be a T. Jon is not overly concerned about logic or efficiency, but he's absolutely obsessed about values and doing what is right. Just look at his reaction to e.g. Craster (although he knows Craster is necessary ally without NW can hardly do without, he doesn't care - he's still emotionally disgusted by him), wildlings (where Bowen logically points out that wildlings are potentially treacherous and just bring more hungry mounts to feed, Jon dismisses him - wildlings are people and he WILL help them, logistics be damned), helping Stannis (logically, he knows NW should take no part. Emotionally, he hates Boltons and thus decides to not only assist Stannis, but keep helping him more and more), arranging the marriage between Sigorn and Alys, etc.

Jeor - I don't see an argument for him being INTP at all. Can you elaborate?

Ygritte - dunno, she seems more like some kind of enjoy the present, live in the moment Se-dominant for me. I could maybe see her as ESFP, but hardly ESFJ. Cersei and Sansa are ESFJs, and their mind works differently than Ygritte's, IMO.

Mance - seems more like a planner, organizer, a man with a vision - not an improvising spontaneous P. Hence I dubbed him as Fe+Ni (ergo ENFJ)

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I see Sansa as ENFP and Arya as ISTJ.  (No wonder they didn't get along.  They're complete opposites.  Haha!)

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First of all, thanks for the detailed response. I admit that I just went with the basic concept of the four facets. Only afterwards did I study the cognitive functions.  It will take me some more time to argue against those.

In the meantime, let my try to elaborate without the functions.

Catelyn - She is good with people, knows instictively how to handle them and even manipulate them. She is assertive and interested in politics (even if solely for the benefit of her extended family). Yes, she does reflect on her emotions as well, but in my opionion her "direction towards the outer world" predominates.

Robb - He seems to be some kind of prodigy when it comes to military strategy. I figured you'd need abstract thinking for that. But I will not argue the point, since we do not know if he's into politics and adminstration and history and what not. I definitely see him as the most perceptive of the whole Stark-Tully bunch, because he so clearly listens willingly to his advisors and does not rule out some possibilities because they might shatter his preconceived notions of the people around him (looking at you, Ned) or how the world is supposed to be.

Sansa - Except for Jeyne Poole we never see her actively seeking interaction with other people. I always had the distinct impression that she spends most of her time in her dreamworld, enjoying songs and entertaining grandiose ideas of love and beauty. If she didn't have all those lessons of courtesy drilled into her from the get go, she wouldn't know how to act around other people. Even then she mostly seems unsure of herself. She just doesn't get them. She is frustrated that she doesn't get along with her sister: Just the sight of him [Mycah] was enough to make Sansa feel sick, but Arya seemed to prefer his company to hers. - AGOT, Sansa I

Arya - You are right, she does spend a considerable amount of time closing up against anyone who has not earned her trust yet and contemplating the injustice of the world. But I'd blame that on survival mode or PTSD. This is only between the incident at the Trident on the their way south and her time in Braavos. In Winterfell she was Arya Underfoot, and Sansa knew all about the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. Arya would make friends with anybody.  (AGOT, Sansa I) Even on her odyssee across the the Riverlands, we see her befriending Gendry, Hot Pie and Lommy. Outwitting a faceless man. Warming to Lady Smallwood. Getting on with the Hound (whom she hates). In that she is very much Catelyn's daughter. In Braavos, where she is safe from harm, she turns into her usual self again in that she enjoys her interactions with the smallfolk very much (even while actively trying to forget her former self. Kind of ironic, now that I think about it.).

The folks on and beyond the Wall will have to wait till tomorrow.

 

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OMG, lol I tried to position myself before going into the characters and I think I am ENTP, although I could be ENFP probably just as easily. Some of these characteristics can run very 50/50 like use of moral code (more subjective feelings) and the rigidity of what one considers just for instance.  Now, laughing my head off here because, wow, who are the only two other characters that come up as ENTP in your analysis?  lol Tyrion (no surprise there; he is my favourite character for all his faults and I feel a lot of affinity with him) but Littlefinger!!! wow, however I personally see LF as more of an introvert...he has certainly the flexibility though; if plan A doesn't pan out he quickly adapts and Euron is a close one too  OMG, no (only joking) much rather be like LF than Euron if I must be a villain :blush:

The more I look at it though the harder I find to define concepts, I mean yeah clearly Tyrion, Bronn, Oberyn etc are extroverts just as Stannis is an introvert or Jon, say, but others like Arya to me she is an extrovert but many of you have her as introvert...  Good point has been mentioned re "present circumstances" as often extroverts feel the need to keep the "cards closed to their chests" for instance.  Sansa is a very good example but I guess we are going for her "using courtesy as armour."  Again, Tyrion at the very beginning said that he uses his extroversion as armour too... but I think we got to take the characters as they would be relaxed with friends and in no danger etc and I don't think being a natural chatter-box or even a show-off can be only a defence mechanism.  Also I see Jaime as a nervous extrovert, probably an introvert in truth.  He boasts, he brags about because of how people treat him and call him "Kingslayer."  We all develop so many "protecting mechanisms" as we go through life that sometimes I just find hard to discern what is what in truth.

Ned is another great example; always bound to duty and justice etc yet the "subjective" emotion for the welfare of his family makes him confess to crimes he never committed, but yeah overall he is a ISFJ I think.. although not so sure about S or N...

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Knight of Winter, I'm afraid I cannot continue this discussion. The way I understand it, the whole MBTI concept is more about preference than ability. The more I read about it the more I think it unsuitable to apply to the characters. Especially since most of them are forced into exceptional situations, where the normal inclinations just yield to survival instinct.

The MBTI and its cognitive functions are an interesting concept, to be sure. But I'm not buying. In fact, right now I am more inclined to discuss this concept in itself rather than in relation to ASOIAF characters. :wacko:

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I wondered about this just 3 days ago, specifically Robb.

People call him an ESTJ: otherwise known as emotionless, uptight, judgmental and inflexible; but also reliable, honest, dedicated, strong willed. 

Robb isn't uptight. He is emotional. He isn't inflexible. 

What I want to emphasise, is that he is emotional. 

Some quotes from AGoT, for example:

Quote

 A dozen spectators, man and boy, were calling out encouragement, Robb’s voice the loudest among them.

Quote

Robb’s curses rang through the yard. Arya covered her mouth in shock. Theon Greyjoy seized Robb’s arm to keep him away from the prince.

Quote

Robb knew something was wrong. "My mother..."

Quote

"Gods," Robb swore, his young face dark with anger. "If this is true, he will pay for it." He drew his sword and waved it in the air. "I'll kill him myself!"

Quote

Only Robb and baby Rickon were still here, and Robb was changed. He was Robb the Lord now, or trying to be.

Quote

"Any man of the Night’s Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.

Quote

Robb Stark finally sheathed his sword. "I... I may have been hasty with you," he said. "You’ve done Bran a kindness, and, well..." Robb composed himself with an effort. "The hospitality of Winterfell is yours if you wish it, Lannister."

Quote

"My uncle is not dead," Robb Stark said loudly, anger in his tones. He rose from the bench and laid his hand on the hilt of his sword. "Do you hear me? My uncle is not dead!" His voice rang against the stone walls, and Bran was suddenly afraid.

Quote

"An adventure," Bran repeated wistfully. He heard his brother sob. The room was so dark he could not see the tears on Robb’s face, so he reached out and found his hand. Their fingers twined together.

Quote

Robb glared at his guardsmen. "Where were you?" he demanded of them. "I was sure you were close behind us."

Quote

But Robb had forbidden him to leave the castle. "We have no men to spare to guard you," his brother had explained.

Quote

"My lord father would never have sent men off to die while he huddled like a craven behind the walls of Winterfell," he said, all Robb the Lord.

Quote

Yet that very night, his brother came to Bran’s bedchamber pale and shaken, after the fires had burned low in the Great Hall. "I thought he was going to kill me," Robb confessed. "Did you see the way he threw down Hal, like he was no bigger than Rickon? Gods, I was so scared. And the Greatjon’s not the worst of them, only the loudest. Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies."

Quote

"Be certain," Catelyn told her son, "or go home and take up that wooden sword again. You cannot afford to seem indecisive in front of men like Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark. Make no mistake, Robb-these are your bannermen, not your friends. You named yourself battle commander. Command."

Almost every scene Robb appears in, he is prone to emotion. Cheering the loudest for Bran (like a soccer mom); showing a bare blade to a guest only to apologise later for being rash; screaming to guests that his uncle isn't dead; taking Bran out, racing ahead and then blaming his guardsmen for something he is partly responsible for; then barring Bran to the castle as he feels guilty, and so forth.

Bran refers to Robb the Lord more than once. Bran almost distinguishes between Robb and when Robb is trying to be lordly. And Catelyn pushes Robb to be lordly. You can say that she helped him with the persona from early on, when he was fumbling, uncertain. 

So I'd really like to know why people continually label him as an ESTJ, because I've never met an ESTJ like this. Emotional outbursts? Rarely. Emotions in general? Hardly. Yet Robb seems like a feeler more than anything else. 

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4 hours ago, Bhotharh said:

1) Knight of Winter, I'm afraid I cannot continue this discussion. The way I understand it, the whole MBTI concept is more about preference than ability. The more I read about it the more I think it unsuitable to apply to the characters. Especially since most of them are forced into exceptional situations, where the normal inclinations just yield to survival instinct.

2) The MBTI and its cognitive functions are an interesting concept, to be sure. But I'm not buying. In fact, right now I am more inclined to discuss this concept in itself rather than in relation to ASOIAF characters. :wacko:

1) A pity :( , I was just about to write a detailed response to your first post, for I liked the discussion

2) By all means - do
 

19 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I see Sansa as ENFP and Arya as ISTJ.  (No wonder they didn't get along.  They're complete opposites.  Haha!)

But...how can Arya be ISTJ - rational, dutiful, notoriously reliable, occasionally seeming even sombre type of personality? Just look at Ned, Stannis, Barristan, Areo Hotah, probably Victarion - how much does Arya have in common with all these undoubtedly ISTJ characters? Not much. For one, she puts way to much emphasis on values and ethics and way to little on logic to be a T.

Also, I've met a number of ENFPs or suspected ENFPs (maybe my favorite type ;) ), and Sansa is unlike any of them. ENFPs are generally very excitable, almost childishly curious and always eager to discuss and try various crazy or less crazy ideas - in fact, they sometimes have troubles deciding on a single course of action (because new options constantly come to mind) or reconciling their ideas with reality. In general, it's a very idea-oriantated type, while Sansa is not. Her main forte are are not ideas, but people around her and the way she reads their emotions, effortlessly connects with them and thrives in their company. 
 

19 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

OMG, lol I tried to position myself before going into the characters and I think I am ENTP, although I could be ENFP probably just as easily. Some of these characteristics can run very 50/50 like use of moral code (more subjective feelings) and the rigidity of what one considers just for instance.  Now, laughing my head off here because, wow, who are the only two other characters that come up as ENTP in your analysis?  lol Tyrion (no surprise there; he is my favourite character for all his faults and I feel a lot of affinity with him) but Littlefinger!!! wow, however I personally see LF as more of an introvert...he has certainly the flexibility though; if plan A doesn't pan out he quickly adapts and Euron is a close one too  OMG, no (only joking) much rather be like LF than Euron if I must be a villain :blush:

The more I look at it though the harder I find to define concepts, I mean yeah clearly Tyrion, Bronn, Oberyn etc are extroverts just as Stannis is an introvert or Jon, say, but others like Arya to me she is an extrovert but many of you have her as introvert...  Good point has been mentioned re "present circumstances" as often extroverts feel the need to keep the "cards closed to their chests" for instance.  Sansa is a very good example but I guess we are going for her "using courtesy as armour."  Again, Tyrion at the very beginning said that he uses his extroversion as armour too... but I think we got to take the characters as they would be relaxed with friends and in no danger etc and I don't think being a natural chatter-box or even a show-off can be only a defence mechanism.  Also I see Jaime as a nervous extrovert, probably an introvert in truth.  He boasts, he brags about because of how people treat him and call him "Kingslayer."  We all develop so many "protecting mechanisms" as we go through life that sometimes I just find hard to discern what is what in truth.

Ned is another great example; always bound to duty and justice etc yet the "subjective" emotion for the welfare of his family makes him confess to crimes he never committed, but yeah overall he is a ISFJ I think.. although not so sure about S or N...

Ah, ENTP - another great type. Did you know that whenever I see a poll regarding that subject, ENTPs are always voted the funniest type. Small wonder half of stand-up comedians are suspected of being ENTP ;)

Difference between introversion and extroversion mbti-wise is dependent on where the person in question focuses their energy - inwardly or outwardly. In Arya's example, the reason why she's typed as introvert is that she has extremely rich inner world of values which she constantly references, compares to what she perceives and judges everything according to it. It's her first, most natural and best reaction to everything: when she hears of singers whom Sansa likes, she immediately thinks: stupid singers ; when she hears that Jon can't spar with Joffrey because of his bastardy, she deems it: it's wrong right away. She sees no problem attacking crown prince to protect Mycah because Joffrey (or his position) hold no value to her personal system. In fact, when questioned about Mycah by Joffrey, she immediately states importance Mycah has to her: "he's my friend". She e.g. put Sandor's name on her hit list because she compromised her happiness and killed her friend, and later started having doubts once she got to know him better and re-evaluated her opinion of him. In general, introverts sort all the information from the outer world thorough their "filters", while extroverts take it much more directly and openly.

And naturally, i/e are not absolute dichotomies. "Pure extrovert" without any introvert qualities would have no sense of self save the one world gives him and would be hyper-sensitive to stimuli from outside; while "pure introvert" would be shut off from the world and self-sufficient to a very unhealthy degree. Every type has is extroverted and introverted qualities - it's just a matter of degree which dominates and how much.

11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Jon; INFP.

Yeah, possibly. INFP would be my second choice for Jon after ISFP.

 

4 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

about Robb

Good points. What's your opinion of Robb's type? ESFJ then? Something else?

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I am an MBTI nerd. I know it pretty well, and have taught myself the cognitive funtions over the years. I'm an INFJ and I also think Rhaegar is a great example of an INFJ. I think you did a good job guessing, which can be difficult for fictional characters but a lot of them are pretty good. Typing the younger characters is difficult, I struggle with Arya as well, although ISFP is a much better guess than ISTP.  What do you think about Dany? I see Dany typed as either INFJ or INFP. I think she could go either way, but I think she might be more INFJ. She is more Fe and Fi, her Fe is pretty apparent with her assimilation to Dothraki culture and trying to do nice things for her brother to help him socially in the group.  Thougts?

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29 minutes ago, ModernMoniker said:

I am an MBTI nerd. I know it pretty well, and have taught myself the cognitive funtions over the years. I'm an INFJ and I also think Rhaegar is a great example of an INFJ. I think you did a good job guessing, which can be difficult for fictional characters but a lot of them are pretty good. Typing the younger characters is difficult, I struggle with Arya as well, although ISFP is a much better guess than ISTP.  What do you think about Dany? I see Dany typed as either INFJ or INFP. I think she could go either way, but I think she might be more INFJ. She is more Fe and Fi, her Fe is pretty apparent with her assimilation to Dothraki culture and trying to do nice things for her brother to help him socially in the group.  Thougts?

First and foremost, welcome to the forum. And greetings from fellow INF on a perceiving end of the spectrum :)

Yeah, I've seen several typing of Dany and the only thing they have in common is that they all type her as xNFx - everything else is a matter of debate. Main reason that I decided in favour of INFP is complete lack of INFJ's dominant function: Ni. Dany has no clear goal nor idea what does she want to do with herself or how to approach given situation. Yes, she wants to reconquer Westeros and reclaim her family's ancestral seat. But at the same time she wants to lead a crusade against slavery. And rule the Meereen. But how - for she can't for the life of everything holy decide whether she wants to a a just peaceful ruler of a overt conqueror. She decides to give peace a chance, but still contemplates  strong temptation of violent warlike solutions. This constant wandering, changing her objectives and moving the goalposts strongly suggest in favour of indecisive Ne, not goal-orientated Ni (like Tywin, Doran or Varys, for example - I can't imagine any one of them handling the situation the way Dany does).

Typing her feeling function - i.e. deciding whether she's Fi or Fe is a bit harder, I admit. I opted for Fi, for her values often seem pretty subjective and dependent of her experiences. For example, she feels very strongly about slavery and slavery in particular because she herself was treated as kind of a slave, sold off to Drogo to cement an alliance. Another example would be her last chapter in ADWD, where she ultimately abandons peace and deduces that dragons plant no seeds. Her abandonment of her policy sounds quite a lot personal - she tried her best but Meereenese dissed her ideas, so now they'll have to pay - that smells of rejected Fi. Generally the way she treated the Masters in all Ghiscari cities strongly suggests Fi: there was no desire for harmony or impulse to smooth things over so everyone can be happy (Fe), what we saw instead was you're all vicious bastards and you'll get no mercy from me Fi judgement.

Btw, doing nice things for others is not Fe-exclusive, Fi is just as capable of it, albeit for a different motivations ;)

Edited by Knight Of Winter
typos

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Every single time I've tried these tests I get a different thing, so I dunno how well they're supposed to work. I usually get INFP, though.. and you say both Lysa Arryn and Daenerys are INFP. Which I don't get either cause those are two wildly different personalities right there. 

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1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Good points. What's your opinion of Robb's type? ESFJ then? Something else?

MBTI is difficult. It seems every other expert sees them differently.

I thought ISFJ, because he shares many traits with them, namely being supportive to no end (to Bran); trying to be reliable (to his family and Winterfell); observant (notices that Jon is upset and likely because of Cat); loyal (to his family, that much is abundantly clear); prone to hiding feelings (breaks down a bit due to feeling overwhelmed during Bran's POV, but hid it from everyone else); like relying on tradition or tested methods (relies on what his father taught him: execute with own hand; make sure your men see you; lead your men - don't hide behind them); generally humble (I don't recall Robb acting prideful ever); fewer but closer friends (unlike Arya who socialises with everyone).

Also while introverts, ISFJs are still good at interacting with others and quite capable of discerning emotions or emotional unrest in people.

Of course, no personality is exact. There are some stark (Hah!) differences among all specific persons within a type. Robb seems more experimental, for example, rather than focusing merely on how things worked in the past.  

Edited by Seeeyeare

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On 3/25/2017 at 9:52 PM, Knight Of Winter said:

Ah, ENTP - another great type. Did you know that whenever I see a poll regarding that subject, ENTPs are always voted the funniest type. Small wonder half of stand-up comedians are suspected of being ENTP ;)

Difference between introversion and extroversion mbti-wise is dependent on where the person in question focuses their energy - inwardly or outwardly. In Arya's example, the reason why she's typed as introvert is that she has extremely rich inner world of values which she constantly references, compares to what she perceives and judges everything according to it. It's her first, most natural and best reaction to everything: when she hears of singers whom Sansa likes, she immediately thinks: stupid singers ; when she hears that Jon can't spar with Joffrey because of his bastardy, she deems it: it's wrong right away. She sees no problem attacking crown prince to protect Mycah because Joffrey (or his position) hold no value to her personal system. In fact, when questioned about Mycah by Joffrey, she immediately states importance Mycah has to her: "he's my friend". She e.g. put Sandor's name on her hit list because she compromised her happiness and killed her friend, and later started having doubts once she got to know him better and re-evaluated her opinion of him. In general, introverts sort all the information from the outer world thorough their "filters", while extroverts take it much more directly and openly.

And naturally, i/e are not absolute dichotomies. "Pure extrovert" without any introvert qualities would have no sense of self save the one world gives him and would be hyper-sensitive to stimuli from outside; while "pure introvert" would be shut off from the world and self-sufficient to a very unhealthy degree. Every type has is extroverted and introverted qualities - it's just a matter of degree which dominates and how much.

Yeah, possibly. INFP would be my second choice for Jon after ISFP.

 

Good points. What's your opinion of Robb's type? ESFJ then? Something else?

Oh, wow, that certainly fits Tyrion well; that meeting with the Vale tribes was priceless and time and time again he lures people in with his comedic skills to save his neck lol.

Oh, thanks so much for the clarification.  When I first though of this, I have to admit, I had more in mind the common idea of an extrovert as someone who is happy speaking in public, making the first move when talking to people even seeks attention etc, basically someone who "reaches out" a lot.  However these characteristics aren't necessarily incompatible with the ones you mention either.  In my case, even by your definition I am still E I think... and and I think Tyrion is one too.  Okay yes, it does not mean we can't have our own subjective agendas but I think we mainly "react to external factors" and are likely to question our own values (I took this more as the T versus F part though...).  Oberyn I think is quite the candidate for this too (E), although he writes bad romantic/erotic poetry or whatever it is that he writes, which I would tend to associate more with someone who lives a little in his own world, but as you said we all have a bit of all the characteristics.  He however takes what life gives him from the outside (women, men, adventure...).  Now, wow you are now making me analyse all my friends lol (only joking again) and I have two that although they are chatty definitely see the world from their moral code and perspective and try to make the facts fit.  Not a criticism but an observation, just as you described Arya.  lol food for thought here indeed.  Now I'm wondering if E in general are more likely to be hedonistic in terms of food, wine, riches, sex etc than the introverts... (almost in a "let's take the best the gods provide for us for that is what we got" sense - because it is here and present and right in the outside...).   Not sure if this is connected or not but in ASOIAF they ones I have marked as clear Es seem to have that trait.  Now, Pod I always saw as an ultimate introvert due to his shyness but is he?  Maybe extreme loyalty (like in Ned's case) tilts him that way.  Okay, Tyrion treats him well but I can see him as a loyal squire almost to anyone who is not someone like say Ramsay.  I think the way he thinks is "he is my liege Lord and I have a duty to protect him as all costs" but also "he is my friend."  I couldn't see LF much as an extrovert because he speaks cautiously, makes friends seldom and only appears to reach out when it suits his ultimate goals.  Despite his early trauma that fueled his ambitions and ruthlessness (me thinks...) he does predominantly answers to the outside but with his "inside goals" very much at the front of him mind.  I am going very 50/50 on him here.

Rob, lol, I think we don't know enough about him to properly categorise him; approachable enough by his men and siblings to qualify as extrovert in the ordinary mind, yet under this study... inward or outward???  my gut feeling is introvert though.  Now in the scene were he is very cold to Tyrion, he suspects him without proof and acts on "his principles" and his love for his brother, which is commendable but unfair, so go for introvert, next one on him, ISFJ, but not without elements of the others.  Got him as F for this scene and when he married against political better judgement.  Got him as J for treatment of Tyrion and his own mother after she released Jaime...S or N was harder since I cannot imagine a very successful and loved military commander having achieved that without huge instinct but he has the loyalty of the north to his house... thus before you explained this test I would have gone for E for him because commanding the north takes charisma but I can see that charisma is not always synonymous with E.

lol you have open a can of warms here!!!  I am definitely getting a book on this!!!

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

Every single time I've tried these tests I get a different thing, so I dunno how well they're supposed to work. I usually get INFP, though.. and you say both Lysa Arryn and Daenerys are INFP. Which I don't get either cause those are two wildly different personalities right there. 

The low reliability of MBTI tests seems to be common. I guess that's what is to be expected, when you make a clear cut in the middle of the scales, where normal distribution would put the majority of people. At 49 you are extraverted and at 51 you are introverted and so on.

You are only supposed to use four of the different coginitve functions, and some don't go together at all. That would be my next objection. (I concede that there are varying explanations for the functions out there, and I might just not have found the ones yet, where this makes sense.)

Furthermore, there is no distinction between private and professional life.

The MBTI model has no dimension for mental stability. The concept is generally not intended for people with poor mental health. Which in my book makes it especially unsuitable for quite a lot of the good folks of Planetos.

With more insight to this whole thing I would probably rethink some of my typing of the characters, btw.

 

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14 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Every single time I've tried these tests I get a different thing, so I dunno how well they're supposed to work. I usually get INFP, though.. and you say both Lysa Arryn and Daenerys are INFP. Which I don't get either cause those are two wildly different personalities right there. 

It's not about personalities, it's about the way their mind works. I admit I struggled with Lysa's type, mainly because she's obviously unstable, and whatever type she has - she's unhealthy version of that type. Still, I think (unhealthy) INFP suits her the best.

Both Dany and Lysa, for example, have inner world of values and emotions which they feel strongly about and which they strive to live by. And while in Dany's case it manifests like e.g. deep conviction that slavery is wrong and desire to make the world without it, in (unhelathy) Lysa's case is shows like selfish and immature: It's all about meeeeeee and my son. Borth Dany and Lysa like to explore various ideas and try different options in their mind before settling on a conclusion: which leads Dany to be indecisive, but Lysa to be paranoid (whatever idea she comes by, she twists it into some kind of conspiracy against her)


 

13 hours ago, Seeeyeare said:

MBTI is difficult. It seems every other expert sees them differently.

I thought ISFJ, because he shares many traits with them, namely being supportive to no end (to Bran); trying to be reliable (to his family and Winterfell); observant (notices that Jon is upset and likely because of Cat); loyal (to his family, that much is abundantly clear); prone to hiding feelings (breaks down a bit due to feeling overwhelmed during Bran's POV, but hid it from everyone else); like relying on tradition or tested methods (relies on what his father taught him: execute with own hand; make sure your men see you; lead your men - don't hide behind them); generally humble (I don't recall Robb acting prideful ever); fewer but closer friends (unlike Arya who socialises with everyone).

Also while introverts, ISFJs are still good at interacting with others and quite capable of discerning emotions or emotional unrest in people.

Of course, no personality is exact. There are some stark (Hah!) differences among all specific persons within a type. Robb seems more experimental, for example, rather than focusing merely on how things worked in the past.  

Good points. ISFJ are perhaps on average the most social of all introverted types.

And there can naturally be massive differences between personalities of two people of the same type. MBTI defines ways that human mind works, not the personalities. Sometimes some input (types) can lead to hugely different personalities. I don't find much in common for Lysa and Dany or for Ygritte and Daario, for example.
 

12 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

lol you have open a can of warms here!!!  I am definitely getting a book on this!!!

Bottomless can of worms, I assure you. MBTI is relatively popular on the internet, so you'll find tons of various stuff, from serious articles, typings for character of various famous TV shows, movies, books etc to completely random funny "what would Type X do" jokes. Like this one.

For the rest: I found it awesome to see someone so engaged in mbti, immediately debating logic behind it and conpemptaing various options :) . As for the e/i, at this point I can only recommend studying cognitive functions (every MBTI book worth something should have good amount of information), which basically explain how extroversion means taking whatever stimuli from the outer world: ideas, people, world itself etc. So when you say " Now I'm wondering if E in general are more likely to be hedonistic in terms of food, wine, riches, sex etc than the introverts.. " , you're basically describing extrovert sensing (Se) cognitive function, which is all about living in the moment, taking opportunities as they come, enjoying stimuli - be it sports, food, sex etc. You can clearly see extroverts with dominant Se: these are people like Robert, Daario, Asha, Arianne etc. Other types of extroverts take other types of stimuli: for example people like Sansa, Cersei or Margaery are clearly people-orientated (extroverted feeling function - Fe): very apt at sensing other people's emotions, connecting with them, comforting them (or the other side of the coin - manipulating them), having the aura of natural charm around people etc.
 

11 hours ago, Bhotharh said:

1) The low reliability of MBTI tests seems to be common. I guess that's what is to be expected, when you make a clear cut in the middle of the scales, where normal distribution would put the majority of people. At 49 you are extraverted and at 51 you are introverted and so on.

2) You are only supposed to use four of the different coginitve functions, and some don't go together at all. That would be my next objection. (I concede that there are varying explanations for the functions out there, and I might just not have found the ones yet, where this makes sense.)

3) Furthermore, there is no distinction between private and professional life.

The MBTI model has no dimension for mental stability. The concept is generally not intended for people with poor mental health. Which in my book makes it especially unsuitable for quite a lot of the good folks of Planetos.

With more insight to this whole thing I would probably rethink some of my typing of the characters, btw.

 

1) yeah, I took test several times as well and noticed 5-10% different results for each letter each time. It wasn't enough to flip me into different type, but this unreliability motivated me to study cognitive functions, which do provide more secure definitions of each type

2) There are reasons why some cognitive functions don't go with each other. Now, I'll be first one to admit that this system is not perfect, that I've seen characters (real and fictional) which e.g. seem to be using both Si and Ni (although it shouldn't be the case, as Si is always paired with Ne, and Ni with Se) - but these are anomalies which do not take much from the overall system.

3) Why should there be? MBTI is about cognitive preferences, not about personality or behaviour. In your professional life you can alter your behavior, even assume completely different persona - but your mind will work in the same way.

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1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

1) yeah, I took test several times as well and noticed 5-10% different results for each letter each time. It wasn't enough to flip me into different type, but this unreliability motivated me to study cognitive functions, which do provide more secure definitions of each type


2) There are reasons why some cognitive functions don't go with each other. Now, I'll be first one to admit that this system is not perfect, that I've seen characters (real and fictional) which e.g. seem to be using both Si and Ni (although it shouldn't be the case, as Si is always paired with Ne, and Ni with Se) - but these are anomalies which do not take much from the overall system.

3) Why should there be? MBTI is about cognitive preferences, not about personality or behaviour. In your professional life you can alter your behavior, even assume completely different persona - but your mind will work in the same way.

1) I agree, determining your type based on the cognitive functions seems more accurate. But does it really change the fact, that few people lean towards the extreme? Just as an aside, I have consistently scored the same four letters since I first took an MBTI test some 15 years ago, and I actually work in a field where two of the proposed professions are combined. But the variation in the percentages of the scales was more than 30 percent sometimes. I'll readily admit that it probably depends on the items, though.

2) I have yet to see an explantion why some of the cognitive functions should be mutually exclusive. In no way will I contest that t you have your usual modus operandi. But depending on circumstances, like under stress or in case of an emergency, you can switch. As you pointed out, the MBTI is all about preferences, not about ability and behaviour, but I fail to see how you cannot be (if somewhat less) comfortable with differing approaches. For example, I have a hard time seeing anybody in a scientific field getting by without both Ne and Ni. Or a world class athlete without both Se and Si.

3.) How can you you effectively change your behaviour (and be okay with it) - to the point where you seem like a another person in a different enviroment - without adjusting your cognitive processes? 

 

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