TheSeer27

Satin

18 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Who is he and who is he working for? Its said he came from a brothel in Old Town, which of course reeks of Marwyn. But would Marwyn need eyes at the Wall? Well it is a magical place, so it does make sense. But it seems Satin definitely had something to do with Jon being murdered. Satin was very bad at keeping Jon's fires lit, which means he was off doing something else. Possibly conferring with whoever he is working for. Also, it was odd that when he was being attacked, Jon couldn't get Long Claw out of its scabbard. Which very well could have been planned. If you are going to murder someone it makes sense to disarm them without their knowing. Of course Satin being Jon's squire would be the prime suspect. He handles Jon's sword all the time. But it doesn't seem like Satin was working with the mutiny of the NW that stabbed Jon. They all were very much against Jon taking him on as a squire, and generally looked down on him for being a whore. So, what's going on here?

Edited by TheSeer27

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On further research, Satin was born and raised in the brothel in Old Town, but was found and brought to the wall from a dungeon in Gulltown. Even more baffling. LittleFinger? He of course has reason for wanting Jon dead. Jon could have claims in WF over Sansa if Robb named him his heir.

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6 hours ago, TheSeer27 said:

On further research, Satin was born and raised in the brothel in Old Town, but was found and brought to the wall from a dungeon in Gulltown. Even more baffling. LittleFinger? He of course has reason for wanting Jon dead. Jon could have claims in WF over Sansa if Robb named him his heir.

Probably one of Lyn Corbray's former boys, likely given to him by Baelish. Curious to see Baelish have a interest on the Wall.

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      When playing certain types of games, you anticipate potential moves which could benefit you or hurt you and try to bring them to fruition, or prevent them accordingly. It’s so 101-level, that a lot of board games are played in this fashion, particularly checkers and chess. Note GRRM uses Cyvasse in his stories which sounds a lot like chess. LF couldn’t rise as high as he did without thinking several steps ahead.

LF lets Sansa believe that he’ll take her home which is all she wants at this point because being Queen has lost its luster, but LF would insist on installing her in a position of power. Letting Sansa be comfortable at Winterfell while another Stark rules won’t be very useful to him. If LF was indeed telling Sansa the truth about wanting her back at Winterfell, then any Stark kid can become a potential threat, depending on LF’s particular plan. Anyone can figure out that Stannis would try to offer Winterfell to Jon because Stannis is desperate for support. Add to that Jon becomes LC, and is now in a highly visible leadership role during a time when a lot of people aren’t exactly thrilled about the Boltons being in power, and sentiment towards Ned is still high.

Also, LF is the one who had Jeyne Poole, so the fArya plot was very likely LF’s idea in the first place. He’s already making moves in the North which set things up to his advantage, to whatever end he has in mind.

No doubt LF is watching very closely.

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8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

      When playing certain types of games, you anticipate potential moves which could benefit you or hurt you and try to bring them to fruition, or prevent them accordingly. It’s so 101-level, that a lot of board games are played in this fashion, particularly checkers and chess. Note GRRM uses Cyvasse in his stories which sounds a lot like chess. LF couldn’t rise as high as he did without thinking several steps ahead.

LF lets Sansa believe that he’ll take her home which is all she wants at this point because being Queen has lost its luster, but LF would insist on installing her in a position of power. Letting Sansa be comfortable at Winterfell while another Stark rules won’t be very useful to him. If LF was indeed telling Sansa the truth about wanting her back at Winterfell, then any Stark kid can become a potential threat, depending on LF’s particular plan. Anyone can figure out that Stannis would try to offer Winterfell to Jon because Stannis is desperate for support. Add to that Jon becomes LC, and is now in a highly visible leadership role during a time when a lot of people aren’t exactly thrilled about the Boltons being in power, and sentiment towards Ned is still high.

Also, LF is the one who had Jeyne Poole, so the fArya plot was very likely LF’s idea in the first place. He’s already making moves in the North which set things up to his advantage, to whatever end he has in mind.

No doubt LF is watching very closely.

 

Agreed on Baelish playing a long game. Using Jeyne as a fake Arya after the real Arya disappeared is genius because he can the cut the Bolton's legs out from under them just by revealing this fact at the right time.

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Posted (edited)

On 25/03/2017 at 2:20 PM, Lord Wraith said:

Agreed on Baelish playing a long game. Using Jeyne as a fake Arya after the real Arya disappeared is genius because he can the cut the Bolton's legs out from under them just by revealing this fact at the right time.

...and the Lannisters for passing her off, knowingly.

Regarding Satin, it isn't something I had given much thought to, but it is certainly worth remembering.  Good catch!

 

Ironically Littlefinger has very long fingers in nearly every pie.

Edited by Bonkers

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Posted (edited)

On 3/24/2017 at 1:47 PM, Lollygag said:

 

      When playing certain types of games, you anticipate potential moves which could benefit you or hurt you and try to bring them to fruition, or prevent them accordingly. It’s so 101-level, that a lot of board games are played in this fashion, particularly checkers and chess. Note GRRM uses Cyvasse in his stories which sounds a lot like chess. LF couldn’t rise as high as he did without thinking several steps ahead.

LF lets Sansa believe that he’ll take her home which is all she wants at this point because being Queen has lost its luster, but LF would insist on installing her in a position of power. Letting Sansa be comfortable at Winterfell while another Stark rules won’t be very useful to him. If LF was indeed telling Sansa the truth about wanting her back at Winterfell, then any Stark kid can become a potential threat, depending on LF’s particular plan. Anyone can figure out that Stannis would try to offer Winterfell to Jon because Stannis is desperate for support. Add to that Jon becomes LC, and is now in a highly visible leadership role during a time when a lot of people aren’t exactly thrilled about the Boltons being in power, and sentiment towards Ned is still high.

Also, LF is the one who had Jeyne Poole, so the fArya plot was very likely LF’s idea in the first place. He’s already making moves in the North which set things up to his advantage, to whatever end he has in mind.

No doubt LF is watching very closely.

 

 

 

Interesting post. Jon Snow is indeed a name known across the realm for anyone who opens a letter from the Wall. He probably even handpicked Satin because he'd obviously make the stewards over the builders or rangers, if not for his build then his name (joke). Being a steward would give him more of a chance at getting access to ravens, which wouldn't be especially hard to do with a blind maester working. I'll admit I didn't consider too closely the fact that Satin was at least implied to be a prostitute (being born in a brothel and whatnot), but we learn from Corbray that he peddles men as well as women.

I think LF not only anticipates moves or opportunities but is also a master of improvisation, able to quickly take moments a snag appears and make the most of that opportunity. I think he's definitely a chessmaster, but I can't believe that everything has worked out according to a master plan. More like he's a master at stirring chaos and finding opportunities to weave and fashion into his favor. He is truly a fascinating character no matter how you look at it.

Edited by Traverys

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On 3/22/2017 at 2:37 PM, TheSeer27 said:

Who is he and who is he working for? Its said he came from a brothel in Old Town, which of course reeks of Marwyn. But would Marwyn need eyes at the Wall? Well it is a magical place, so it does make sense. But it seems Satin definitely had something to do with Jon being murdered. Satin was very bad at keeping Jon's fires lit, which means he was off doing something else. Possibly conferring with whoever he is working for. Also, it was odd that when he was being attacked, Jon couldn't get Long Claw out of its scabbard. Which very well could have been planned. If you are going to murder someone it makes sense to disarm them without their knowing. Of course Satin being Jon's squire would be the prime suspect. He handles Jon's sword all the time. But it doesn't seem like Satin was working with the mutiny of the NW that stabbed Jon. They all were very much against Jon taking him on as a squire, and generally looked down on him for being a whore. So, what's going on here?

Ahh, Satin!  I rather like his character and I don't really want to think about him betraying Jon, but I think there is a strong chance that he has or will. 

Quote

"the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard" ADWD-Jon VII

Jon, through Ghost, senses, smells or associates sweetness with Satin, and in our story, it seems like sweetness has a negative connotation. Like Arbor Gold is associated with lies, and lemons are associated with bitterness, sweet is not a good thing in our story. And so I think Satin is not to be trusted, or at least bears watching.

As to who Satin might be working for, as has been pointed out, both Littlefinger and Marwyn could be options. I have also heard people think that maybe Satin is connected to the Hightower family in Old Town, and they might have some fingers in the politics pie of Westeros. What they might want with the Wall is hard to imagine, but not impossible. The Hightower's float around the end of our story, and they are a family that share some physical traits of the people of Valyria. Certainly Jorah seems to think that Daenerys looks similar to his wife, Lynesse Hightower. They are also a family that seems to have money and a quiet type of influence in the Seven Kingdoms. The Hightower's keep getting little mentions, as if to keep them in our mind, and I expect there to be a pay off at some point. 

Certainly Satin has a lot of power in his position as Jon's steward. He could certainly sabotage Jon and I just keep remembering that connection to Satin and sweetness! 

I don't have my books with me now, but I think in aDwD, one of the times Ghost is acting rather feral, is a time when Satin was in Jon's chambers. That is when Mully reports to Jon that Ghost tried to bite him. Jon blames this behavior on Borroq and his boar, but I think Ghost is trying to tell Jon something different.

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15 hours ago, St Daga said:

Ahh, Satin!  I rather like his character and I don't really want to think about him betraying Jon, but I think there is a strong chance that he has or will. 

Jon, through Ghost, senses, smells or associates sweetness with Satin, and in our story, it seems like sweetness has a negative connotation. Like Arbor Gold is associated with lies, and lemons are associated with bitterness, sweet is not a good thing in our story. And so I think Satin is not to be trusted, or at least bears watching.

As to who Satin might be working for, as has been pointed out, both Littlefinger and Marwyn could be options. I have also heard people think that maybe Satin is connected to the Hightower family in Old Town, and they might have some fingers in the politics pie of Westeros. What they might want with the Wall is hard to imagine, but not impossible. The Hightower's float around the end of our story, and they are a family that share some physical traits of the people of Valyria. Certainly Jorah seems to think that Daenerys looks similar to his wife, Lynesse Hightower. They are also a family that seems to have money and a quiet type of influence in the Seven Kingdoms. The Hightower's keep getting little mentions, as if to keep them in our mind, and I expect there to be a pay off at some point. 

Certainly Satin has a lot of power in his position as Jon's steward. He could certainly sabotage Jon and I just keep remembering that connection to Satin and sweetness! 

I don't have my books with me now, but I think in aDwD, one of the times Ghost is acting rather feral, is a time when Satin was in Jon's chambers. That is when Mully reports to Jon that Ghost tried to bite him. Jon blames this behavior on Borroq and his boar, but I think Ghost is trying to tell Jon something different.

Some people think that Satin could be the perfumed seneschal.

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2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Some people think that Satin could be the perfumed seneschal.

That is interesting. I never associated the perfumed seneschal with Jon's story, as it comes up in Dany's story line, but maybe so. GRRM is weaving us a tale that has complex hints. I rather like Satin's character but that doesn't mean I can ignore some of the suspicious things in his story. 

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6 minutes ago, St Daga said:

That is interesting. I never associated the perfumed seneschal with Jon's story, as it comes up in Dany's story line, but maybe so. GRRM is weaving us a tale that has complex hints. I rather like Satin's character but that doesn't mean I can ignore some of the suspicious things in his story. 

Jon and Dany are on parallel stories and it would be far from the first time prophecy was revealed to people who had nothing to do with it.

Satin does seem like a decent enough fellow but I need to find that theory that he was part of the conspiracy to bring jJon down. Also slightly poisoning his wine.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Jon and Dany are on parallel stories and it would be far from the first time prophecy was revealed to people who had nothing to do with it.

Yes. Maybe the hints are not for Dany or Jon at all, but for us, the reader. Or as so many things do in this story, hints serve multiple purposes.

15 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Satin does seem like a decent enough fellow but I need to find that theory that he was part of the conspiracy to bring jJon down. Also slightly poisoning his wine.

I always associate Clydas with the wine. And if the wine is poisoned, is it intentional, or accidental? Could be Satin, though. I think at least one of the perpetrators of Jon's stabbing will be someone we like, trust and didn't expect at all. Lot's of people are coming and going at Castle Black, so I suspect even people that we don't know for sure are at Castle Black, such as Edd, Grenn, Pyp (I hope it's none of the boys Jon started his Watch journey with); all of those would be tough to swallow. Who held the fourth knife? Could be Satin! Or the previous mentioned men. Could be many people. I think it is a member of the NIght's Watch, however, and not a wildling. 

Of course, we might find out in the next book that we have all misunderstood the purpose of the attack on Jon's life. GRRM is crafty!

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Posted (edited)

This is slightly off to the side of the topic, but just for clarification:

Other than what seems like the obvious judgements/prejudices of sworn brothers, is it every explicitly stated that Satin was a male whore? All we know is he was born and raised in a brothel that is located in Oldstown. Knowing what a crapsack world Westeros is, we can probably infer his flesh was peddled, but do we really ever have these dots connected for us?

Even the wiki states on several pages that he was a prostitute, but the cited quotes are less than compelling. Mostly it all hinges on one of the brothers calling him a catamite, which seems more like prejudice or gossip than discussing facts. So, to be technical, should the wording be more like "may have also been a prostitute," "suspected of being a prostitute by sworn brothers," etc.?

To clarify, this question concern a possible edit to the wiki for clarity's sake. It doesn't mean he isn't a pawn of Littlefinger as he would still have the connection to a brothel.

Edited by Traverys

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On 5/20/2017 at 3:13 AM, Traverys said:

This is slightly off to the side of the topic, but just for clarification:

Other than what seems like the obvious judgements/prejudices of sworn brothers, is it every explicitly stated that Satin was a male whore? All we know is he was born and raised in a brothel that is located in Oldstown. Knowing what a crapsack world Westeros is, we can probably infer his flesh was peddled, but do we really ever have these dots connected for us?

Even the wiki states on several pages that he was a prostitute, but the cited quotes are less than compelling. Mostly it all hinges on one of the brothers calling him a catamite, which seems more like prejudice or gossip than discussing facts. So, to be technical, should the wording be more like "may have also been a prostitute," "suspected of being a prostitute by sworn brothers," etc.?

To clarify, this question concern a possible edit to the wiki for clarity's sake. It doesn't mean he isn't a pawn of Littlefinger as he would still have the connection to a brothel.

Hmm that's a good point. I always assumed he had worked as a prostitute, but then again Glendon Ball was raised in a brothel and there's no indication that he practiced the trade.

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On 22/03/2017 at 4:37 PM, TheSeer27 said:

Who is he and who is he working for? Its said he came from a brothel in Old Town, which of course reeks of Marwyn. But would Marwyn need eyes at the Wall? Well it is a magical place, so it does make sense. But it seems Satin definitely had something to do with Jon being murdered. Satin was very bad at keeping Jon's fires lit, which means he was off doing something else. Possibly conferring with whoever he is working for. Also, it was odd that when he was being attacked, Jon couldn't get Long Claw out of its scabbard. Which very well could have been planned. If you are going to murder someone it makes sense to disarm them without their knowing. Of course Satin being Jon's squire would be the prime suspect. He handles Jon's sword all the time. But it doesn't seem like Satin was working with the mutiny of the NW that stabbed Jon. They all were very much against Jon taking him on as a squire, and generally looked down on him for being a whore. So, what's going on here?

I don't think Satin was involved in the assassination attempt. More than that, I think he's among the black brothers loyal to Jon. 

And the bold added to the fact that Satin can read and write after a fashion may suggest something altogether different... like, he's a nobleman's bastard perhaps? 

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On 2017. 06. 21. at 11:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think Satin was involved in the assassination attempt. More than that, I think he's among the black brothers loyal to Jon. 

And the bold added to the fact that Satin can read and write after a fashion may suggest something altogether different... like, he's a nobleman's bastard perhaps? 

He also dances gracefully and he seems to have good manners.

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I'll be laughed at, but I have a strong feeling "Satin" is just a cover and he's really Tyrek Lannister. He resented being forced to marry a toddler and being called "Wet Nurse" so , with Varys' help, he goes to the wall as "Satin". 

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On 5/20/2017 at 0:13 AM, Traverys said:

This is slightly off to the side of the topic, but just for clarification:

Other than what seems like the obvious judgements/prejudices of sworn brothers, is it every explicitly stated that Satin was a male whore? All we know is he was born and raised in a brothel that is located in Oldstown. Knowing what a crapsack world Westeros is, we can probably infer his flesh was peddled, but do we really ever have these dots connected for us?

Even the wiki states on several pages that he was a prostitute, but the cited quotes are less than compelling. Mostly it all hinges on one of the brothers calling him a catamite, which seems more like prejudice or gossip than discussing facts. So, to be technical, should the wording be more like "may have also been a prostitute," "suspected of being a prostitute by sworn brothers," etc.?

To clarify, this question concern a possible edit to the wiki for clarity's sake. It doesn't mean he isn't a pawn of Littlefinger as he would still have the connection to a brothel.

Even "born and raised in a brothel" could be a cover story ... I'm not sure he's LF's agent, but I feel pretty sure he's a noble bastard.

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