Therae Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 46 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Rule Number Two must be to pick sane and reliable goons. That's probably Rule Roman Numeral i. But then if Gregor were a more conscientious and responsible assassin, there would not be nearly so much opportunity to question the identity of that kid with JonCon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Therae said: That's probably Rule Roman Numeral i. But then if Gregor were a more conscientious and responsible assassin, there would not be nearly so much opportunity to question the identity of that kid with JonCon. Indeed. Gregor is awful for delicate work but great for writing mysteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said: Uh, magic? It's the only example in the novels of magic being able to create living creatures (maggots) from nothing. Remember middle-school science class? You put the cheese cloth over the meat and no maggots emerge. A recurring element of the novels is the revelation of a variety of apparently magic powers as a fraud, so accepting "It's magic, I ain't got to explain shit" as an explanation doesn't cut it. I'm not saying there's no magic, because there clearly is (or at least supernatural forces for which "magic" is an entirely reasonable description) but we've got to be careful we don't simply accept it as an answer, especially when the effect seems to fly in the face of what magic appears to be able to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said: It's the only example in the novels of magic being able to create living creatures (maggots) from nothing. Remember middle-school science class? You put the cheese cloth over the meat and no maggots emerge. A recurring element of the novels is the revelation of a variety of apparently magic powers as a fraud, so accepting "It's magic, I ain't got to explain shit" as an explanation doesn't cut it. I'm not saying there's no magic, because there clearly is (or at least supernatural forces for which "magic" is an entirely reasonable description) but we've got to be careful we don't simply accept it as an answer, especially when the effect seems to fly in the face of what magic appears to be able to do. Dude, seriously. Not to be rude, but this argument is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 23/3/2017 at 10:20 PM, The Hammer of Justice said: You forgot the most likely theory: The death of the dragons caused the Others to return If the dragons were dead. From all we know there are still dragons in Asshai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 3/24/2017 at 10:07 AM, Teenage Wasteland said: I'm in the camp who believe Jon the bastard will turn against man and join the White Walkers. An army of frozen bastards marching through the wall. It's too cliche to have humans vs. white walkers. I predict there will be not too few of the humans who may side with the white walkers. Those who have become disillusioned and isolated, like Jon. The Starks are the ice side of the equation. Having them side with the white walkers would make for a great story. On 3/23/2017 at 10:42 AM, Steelshanks Walton said: Jon Snow. Ice and Fire are two opposing elements. It's safe to assume he's the son of Lyanna but it is far from proven in the books who sired him. But let's assume Rhaegar is the father. Ice and Fire mixing would anger both R'hllor and the Great Other, two opposing forces. Good point. The price for peace may require killing Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Tour De Force said: It's too cliche to have humans vs. white walkers. I predict there will be not too few of the humans who may side with the white walkers. Those who have become disillusioned and isolated, like Jon. The Starks are the ice side of the equation. Having them side with the white walkers would make for a great story. Good point. The price for peace may require killing Jon. Eh, I like the idea that the Others who are causing all the trouble are a rogue branch and the good Others will team up with the humans to stop them. And with your last statement my end-game idea gets stronger. Darn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 Some really thought-provoking replies here! I'll throw in something related to the 'recurring cyclical event' argument that I noticed while researching a different theory. It's a little out there, so be kind... Despite all the references to Summerhall, Jon's birth, Ned's marriage to Cat, the comet, the hatching of the dragons, etc, none of these events really seem to tie in with the timing of the Others' reappearance. We readers first learn of them in the AGOT Prologue, which occurs approximately mid-297. Can't remember Mance Rayder's exact words/chronology on gathering his wildling army and heading south, but I believe he began that exercise in earnest slightly prior to Waymar & Co meeting the Others in the woods (which makes sense, considering that the wildlings would be the first exposed to sightings or taking notice of activity). Thinking about it in terms of the 'awakening' occurring sometime 296-297ish, I tried to think of known events that might have happened around that time, and really, there's only two, and they both relate to the same thing: 1) Dany comes of age. The last Targaryen girl, the one that has now hatched dragons and taken up the mantle of the Last Dragon, arrived in Pentos, got her first blood, and was brokered off to a Dothraki khal - a khal that would later give her a child that was prophesied to be The Stallion That Mounts the World. Also, we learn from Maester Aemon that Dany herself could fill the bill of "Prince that was Promised" that was spoken of in the prophecy. 2) Melisandre takes up with Stannis at Dragonstone. We don't know exactly when she arrived there, but in ACOK Littlefinger tells the council that Varys had reported Stannis onboarding a shadowbinder from Asshai "some years past" - this is in 299, so again, 296-297 would fall in the range of "some years past". As we know, Mel's purpose is to hitch her wagon to Stannis, who she believes to be Azor Ahai reborn, the hero prophesied to defeat the Great Other. (And of course, Mel's belief is very wrong.) Anyway, my point is that when the Others begin emerging from their 8000 some-odd year hibernation, it coincided with movements of other persons associated with ancient prophecy...specifically, IMO, Dany. She's the lynchpin here. In doing some research on the concept of the Third Eye, I learned that certain animal species possess such a thing as the "parietal eye" : The eye is photoreceptive and is associated with the pineal gland, regulating circadian rhythmicity and hormone production for thermoregulation. Reptiles and amphibians sense light via a third parietal eye, which serves to regulate their circadian rhythms. Circadian rhythms allow organisms to anticipate and prepare for precise and regular environmental changes. Timely prediction of seasonal periods of weather conditions, food availability, or predator activity is crucial for survival of many species. Although not the only parameter, the changing length of the photoperiod ('daylength') is the most predictive environmental cue for the seasonal timing of physiology and behavior, most notably for timing of migration, hibernation, and reproduction." Interesting that a third eye, one that senses environmental shifts and triggers cyclical behaviors including mating and reproduction, is primarily found in reptiles. Dany, the Last Dragon, the Targaryen Princess that seems to be checking off all the prophecy boxes, comes of age and prepares for marriage...and coincidentally, right about that same time, Westeros begins seeing signs that Winter is Coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 Frankly thinking that anything that happened recently brought back the Others is simply wrong IMO. Craster has been sacrificing to them for decades and I have a suspecion that certain portions of the North and the Wildlings have been sacrificing to the Others for a long time. This was facilitated by the Wall and the Night's Watch via the Nightfort. The sacrifices have slowly been dwindling after Queen Alysanne closing of the Night Fort and the banning the Lord's Right of the First Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 15 hours ago, Tour De Force said: It's too cliche to have humans vs. white walkers. I predict there will be not too few of the humans who may side with the white walkers. Those who have become disillusioned and isolated, like Jon. The Starks are the ice side of the equation. Having them side with the white walkers would make for a great story. Good point. The price for peace may require killing Jon. I think the Others are a threat but they have something to offer that may attract some of the human side to ally with them. I can also see the Starks siding with them. They may offer the Starks the chance to rule the north again. I don't mean lords of the north on behalf of the iron throne but to rule again as they did before the Targaryens came. The temptation to become "King of Winter" might be too strong of a temptation for Jon, Bran, and Rickon to resist. The White Walkers will ask the humans to stay on the south side of the wall and make regular blood sacrifices to them. Gods like to have their asses kissed and what better way to do that than blood sacrifice. Daenerys will take back the rest of Westeros and a new boundary will be drawn between south and north. The south will be progressive and humane but part of the peace treaty may involve them minding their own business and letting the northern barbarians practice their brutal human sacrifices. 11 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: Frankly thinking that anything that happened recently brought back the Others is simply wrong IMO. Craster has been sacrificing to them for decades and I have a suspecion that certain portions of the North and the Wildlings have been sacrificing to the Others for a long time. This was facilitated by the Wall and the Night's Watch via the Nightfort. The sacrifices have slowly been dwindling after Queen Alysanne closing of the Night Fort and the banning the Lord's Right of the First Night. This made me think the Others can be reasoned with. Craster kept kissing them in the ass and they didn't bother him. They only wanted baby boys. I would offer up Jon Snow and Rickon Stark to them and see if that keeps them happy for a while. They can have the Stark dogs too, Ghost and Shaggy, if they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hammer of Justice Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 21 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: If the dragons were dead. From all we know therea are still dragons in Asshai. no, we don't know that, do we? Actually, we don't know anything about Asshai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said: no, we don't know that, do we? Actually, we don't know anything about Asshai Quote The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. ... saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hammer of Justice Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: we can't take any conclusions from that, we don't know if it's present, if it's past, if it's future, if it's a metaphor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 1 minute ago, The Hammer of Justice said: we can't take any conclusions from that, we don't know if it's present, if it's past, if it's future, if it's a metaphor Yet is better that saying "there are no more dragons" without any kind of proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hammer of Justice Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Yet is better that saying "there are no more dragons" without any kind of proof. There are more proofs that there are no more dragons than proofs that there are living dragons still. Even with its flaws I still prefer this explanation over those in the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 1 minute ago, The Hammer of Justice said: There are more proofs that there are no more dragons than proofs that there are living dragons still. Even with its flaws I still prefer this explanation over those in the OP Actually the *proofs* we have is about Westeros. But no one can say for sure if there are dragons in the rest of GRRTH. Essos, Sothoryos, Ulthos and so on are still unknown to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 7 hours ago, Green-Lipped Mussel said: I think the Others are a threat but they have something to offer that may attract some of the human side to ally with them. I can also see the Starks siding with them. They may offer the Starks the chance to rule the north again. I don't mean lords of the north on behalf of the iron throne but to rule again as they did before the Targaryens came. The temptation to become "King of Winter" might be too strong of a temptation for Jon, Bran, and Rickon to resist. The White Walkers will ask the humans to stay on the south side of the wall and make regular blood sacrifices to them. Gods like to have their asses kissed and what better way to do that than blood sacrifice. Daenerys will take back the rest of Westeros and a new boundary will be drawn between south and north. The south will be progressive and humane but part of the peace treaty may involve them minding their own business and letting the northern barbarians practice their brutal human sacrifices. This made me think the Others can be reasoned with. Craster kept kissing them in the ass and they didn't bother him. They only wanted baby boys. I would offer up Jon Snow and Rickon Stark to them and see if that keeps them happy for a while. They can have the Stark dogs too, Ghost and Shaggy, if they want. Indeed the since we know they had a pact with Craster means communication is possible. This whole notion that the Others are pure icy evil and can't be talked to makes no sense to me. Well other than the fact than Sam killed their ambassador Ser Puddles. I am sure that didn't go over well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impbread Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Could it be that "godly" men like Craster finally made enough sacrifices for them to become powerful enough to make another run at man kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Restoration Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 On 3/25/2017 at 10:20 AM, Wm Portnoy said: Dany reversed the process but Drogo's body was already gone. The souls of those dear to Dany went into the dragons. The order of death and the order of the rebirth matter. Viserys died first. Viserion was born first. Rhaego died next. Rhaegal was born second. Drogo died last. Drogon was born last. Viserys = Viserion Rhaego = Rhaegal Drogo = Drogon Rhaegar is not in this picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Restoration Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 8 hours ago, Impbread said: Could it be that "godly" men like Craster finally made enough sacrifices for them to become powerful enough to make another run at man kind? Walder Frey can't be the only one who can sire an army all on his own. Put Craster in the same league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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