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Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?


Rachel of Oldstones

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Interesting. Well, the Boltons certainly go back far enough to have intermarried with the Royces. And the Red Kings which is the period of their history where these Royce Boltons show up are said to have ruled since the Long Night. So say. House Royce are instrumental in the defeat of the Others with the Last Hero. And that one daughter is married to a Bolton, she might take up the practice of gifting her own house name to her son and the heir. As I said this is I believe quite common in some parts of the world. I'm thinking maybe the USA specifically but my knowledge of the states isn't exactly shit hot.  

Now, might this imply that a Bolton was also amongst the LH's companions? 

Not at all impossible. Being united in the face of a grave danger which threatens all, does not guarantee lasting peace between families.  So one thing I'm interested in is the Bolton skinning and wearing of their enemies skins.  I'm wondering if there might be some magic to it. I know I'm hardly the first to think this. Let's look at possibly the most famous example of wearing flayed skin garments. The Icelandic Necropants. So the wearer must gain permission from the deceased prior to their death. But we can rule that out in the Bolton's case. They most definitely did not. And then must dig up the corpse; again no need as Boltons are into live flaying. So straight away there is a distinct lack of consent involved and indeed torture! So we can establish that the Boltons flaying is in no way a "nice" thing. It's definitely nefarious in its nature. 

Next though is where I'm kinda seeing some possibility for inspiration. The Lower half of the body must be flayed in its entirety and the trousers made from it once you sew them back up then worn over your own bear skin, and this is where I see some similarity, the Boltons are frequently described as wearing the skins of their enemies.  The Necropants are said to adhere directly to your own skin, sounds like magic (also sounds like the FM's facial wearing! hmmmm.that means we have already an example of in world magic which works in a similar way to that which I am about to begin suggesting.) to me.  Now the Boltons seemingly are quite attached to doing this, so much so they've built their entire house image around it and their historical members bore names such as the red (Bloody) Kings, Royce redarm, (who tore out his enemies entrails with his bare hands. Again is this all show? or is there something more to the Bolton's grisly practices? remind anyone else of Haruspication? And Rogar The Huntsman - who's he been a hunting? boars? or people. I mean we see Ramsey literally hunting people later might he have got his hobby from the family history books? 

Back to those necropants. The magic is activated by placing a single gold coin in the scrotum, along with a magical symbol. and the wearer then will find the Scrotum is forever full of gold coins, so long as the original coin and the magical symbol are not removed. And the wearer can pass the magic pants on to their family members, in fact they must do this to ensure salvation! But the new wearer must accept them and step into both legs directly as the old wearer steps out. So It seems that the power can be maintained from say father to son, so long as the magic is not broken by leaving the trousers empty and or removing the magical symbols.the coin and the drawing/symbol/rune?? 

It is rumoured that there is a secret chamber in the Dreadfort where skins are kept, despite the fact they agreed long ago to stop flaying people. 

Then we have the huge Tent made from the skins of Sistermen by Belthasar Bolton. Why?  Maybe to intimidate sure, but maybe for some form of ceremony? using all those skins at once might grant some serious mind-reading magic to someone sat in the centre of that tent? The Chronicles also say Northmen disembowelled the Sistermen? More evidence of reading of entrails? they are said to have wound them round spits? Now this is all sounding very like propaganda. Of course but we know of the decorating of Weirwood trees with entrails? and well. why did they do that, is that what happened during the rape of the sisters? Was it ceremonial? or to do with communicating with the Greenseers buried in the trees? Why on earth were they so into conquering the sisters anyway. I digress. 

 

What I'm going to go ahead and suggest now is that the Boltons flay people and use their skin in some form of magic. Maybe wearing the cloaks enables some sort of insight into the mind of the dead, much like wearing the faces gives the wearer the memories and thoughts of the dead in the FM's magic. I've long suspected that the various forms of magic in world are not remotely exclusive to those who have historically and currently wielded them. but rather that some people have magical ability and can access the various in world magics if they learn them. this is evident in both MMD & Mellisandre and to a lesser extent maybe on Beric. But that different families and sects have "specialised" in certain magics. So I'm suggesting the Boltons are doing what the faceless men are doing but have come at it from a different angle and used  it/maybe are trying to use it again? to gain advantages in battle. Or in ongoing conflict, like they engaged in with House Stark. In which sense it makes total sense to keep the skins of your enemies, much like the FM's room of faces? Because you never know when channelling the memories and thoughts, feelings etc of a dead foe may come in handy when trying to defeat his son? Or his Brother, or grandson even.  You'd learn all the Starks secrets if you could put on the skin of their dead King and enter his memories. Blimey1 that got a bit OT. Sorry. 

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1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Any chance the people of Thenn may have some connection to the runes? Magnar Styr weilded a weirwood spear topped with an ornate bronze head, and even more peculiarly wore a suit bronze scaled armour.  Let's not forget, the Magnars of Thenn are considered to be closer to gods than men by their people, which for some reason makes me think of the runes of Royce. If we think of Thenn as "Then", the place and people signify the past - Thenns use bronze weaponry, bronze armour and keep the Old Tongue. These practices draw to mind the four main gimmicks of House Royce - The words "We Remember", bronze armour, First Men Runes and the lost Valyrian sword "Lamentation" - all traits which brings the "past" to mind. If we put these together, the people of Thenn and Runestone each have several parallels drawing upon images of a time gone by.

Consider the location of Thenn, nestled deep in a valley in The Frostfangs, the home of The Magnar and his people lies geographically closest to The Land of Always Winter. 

In regards to the family's heirloom sword, Lamentation, what exactly was House Royce lamenting? Lamentation can mean "a passionate expresion of sorrow" aswell as some form of "complaint" - both which bring to mind the Andal Invasion, assimilation of First Men culture, Lord Yohn's apparent hoary nature, Royce men dying in their Bronze armour, Waymar fighting The Others and perhaps even The Long Night.

If we look at the Christian Bible's The Book of Lamentations, we hear of tales which draw several parallels to both the current situation in Westeros, and the Battle For The Dawn.

From Wikipedia: 

Lamentations combines elements of the qinah, a funeral dirge for the loss of the city, and the "communal lament" pleading for the restoration of its people.[10] It reflects the view, traceable to Sumerian literature of a thousand years earlier, that the destruction of the holy city was a punishment by God for the communal sin of its people.[11]

Beginning with the reality of disaster, Lamentations concludes with the bitter possibility that God may have finally rejected Israel (chapter 5:22). Sufferers in the face of grief are not urged to a confidence in the goodness of God; in fact God is accountable for the disaster. The poet acknowledges that this suffering is a just punishment, still God is held to have had choice over whether to act in this way and at this time. Hope arises from a recollection of God's past goodness, but although this justifies a cry to God to act in deliverance, there is no guarantee that he will. Repentance will not persuade God to be gracious, since he is free to give or withhold grace as he chooses. In the end, the possibility is that God has finally rejected his people and may not again deliver them: if God is predictable, then God is just a tool of humans. Nevertheless, it also affirms confidence that the mercies of Yahweh (the God of Israel) never end, but are new every morning (3:22–33)

Could any of this tie into The Runes or even perhaps The Long Night?

After all, "We Remember"

 

 

 

Interesting ideas, I think lamentation as a sword name implies regret. Or a sense of loss. I kinda put it down to the fact that the Royces had lost their Kingship of the Vale. And of course, the sword itself is lost. 

But tying it to the Long Night and thinking in terms of the lost city in the bible is intersting, are you getting at the Long Night being a similar idea to God foresaking the people of Jerusalem in Lammentations. Care to ellaborate on your thoughts? I'm interested. 

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@The Weirwoods Eyes That. Was. Amazing. 

Necropants? Who knew such a thing existed??

I agree with your analysis. One thing that stood out to me was the coin and magic in the scrotum... maybe the seed is strong? I read a little more about the pants and it appears that the good fortune passed through generations, as long as the next still had/wore the pants. 

Good stuff. 

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Aha! Indeed Necropants are a thing. lol. Or were at any rate. I'm a bit obsessed with Witchcraft tbh. 

yes, one of the things which struck me was that they can be passed through the generations. And that the magic is centred around the genitals, the scrotum in particular. Now imagine taking that idea and applying it to a cloak made from people and the magic is not gold, but accessing their memories. That's some powerful magic to be able to pass on to your heirs. Want to know how to access the tunnels to sneak into WF? Just put on old dead King Starks skin for a while. And sit in the special room while you rifle through his memories.  Different skins would hold different bits of information, you might kill a scout and learn of the battle plans of the host approaching your lands. 

Now think about this concept of Skin magic (It's a form of blood magic, right. I once started a thread about all the different forms of magic in world right after the WOIAF release but alas hardly anyone commented. :( ) In relation to the Pink letter. If Ramsey has killed and flayed and worn the cloak of the 6 Spearwives, he would know enough to write that letter without them having spoken a word. He could access their memories of Mance being falsely burnt, of the Red Witch, of Seylse & Shireen being at CB. Of Val, and what they call her up at the wall. And who she is and what she can do if those theories are correct, which would explain why Ramsey wants her. Of the babe, why does he want Manses son? I mean he makes it clear he hasn't killed Manse and he wants the man's son, which all makes me think he wants leverage over Manse, cos flaying his women hasn't given him what he is after? And he'd know Theon took Jeyne and that the plan was to head for the wall, because the spearwives assisted in that escape. It would not matter if they had bitten their own tongues off in order to keep silent. If he can wear their skin and see their past be them whilst he wears it even, as Arya is the Ugly girl, and feels and see's the beatings, or as she is Mercy. 

I have never believed he has defeated Stannis, but I do think the letter is a mix of fact and bravado. 

ETA: there is at least part of this idea which is inspired also by a Wildcards character who can access people's memories by eating their brains. 

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1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Back to those necropants. The magic is activated by placing a single gold coin in the scrotum, along with a magical symbol. and the wearer then will find the Scrotum is forever full of gold coins, so long as the original coin and the magical symbol are not removed. And the wearer can pass the magic pants on to their family members, in fact they must do this to ensure salvation! But the new wearer must accept them and step into both legs directly as the old wearer steps out. So It seems that the power can be maintained from say father to son, so long as the magic is not broken by leaving the trousers empty and or removing the magical symbols.the coin and the drawing/symbol/rune?? 

Tywin get out this body !!

More seriously, I see here another way to link the thematics of the Lannister with the Bolton... and the Royce.^_^ 

 

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On 3/24/2017 at 6:01 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

A most interesting speculation here! 

I wonder if the destruction of books and libraries is a shout-out to The Name of the Rose, a brilliant analysis of the breakdown of the medieval mindset?

Where can I read more about those runes associated with House Royce?

Off to investigate.

Here is a post from last year with a little bit about runes.

The rune-covered bronze dagger of the Widow of the Waterfront seems like a major clue to the Royce family secret. It is bronze, for one thing, like the Royce armor.

I think the Widow is a character like Old Nan and Olenna Tyrell, both of whom I suspect of having secret agendas or identities. Ser Jorah gave the Widow a pair of gloves, which may be a symbol of her disguising her identity or motives. (The gloves were Ser Jorah's way of saying that he knows she has another identity.) Aside from sending Tyrion, Penny and Ser Jorah on a harrowing quest, the other things we know about her are that she must live outside of the "insiders" area in her community and that she was a slave who cut away the tear-shaped tattoo on her face. These elements of her story bring me back to Arya again, as did the elements associated with Ser Waymar. Arya has had a lot of servant roles as she hides from her enemies. She also makes a decision not to cry, and she cheers when the crying girl Weasel runs away into the woods instead of being captured by Gregor Clegane's men.

I wish I could put the rest of the pieces together.

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46 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Interesting ideas, I think lamentation as a sword name implies regret. Or a sense of loss. I kinda put it down to the fact that the Royces had lost their Kingship of the Vale. And of course, the sword itself is lost. 

I like this, maybe the Royces regret convertaing from the Old Gods to The Faith of The Seven too? I couldn't find any solid information on the religion of House Royce, but considering there are several Knights in the house, aswell as the Andal conquest and marriages, one would assume The Lords of Runestone favour the seven. Then again, all the stuff about ancient First Men runes and bronze suits of armour makes me think they may still have respect for the Old Gods. Could this secret longing for the Gods of Stone and Stream be the reason why Lord Yohn was cool with Ser Waymar joining The Watch?

Perhaps House Royce "remember" a time when they had the support of the Old/True Gods, and also remember how they chose to forsake those deities for false idols. Could this have something to do with the apparent lack of luck displayed by the Royces?

While the House are still powerful in The Vale, they are no longer Kings, and have had to deal with a number of dodgy political situations over the years, such as Rhea Royce's seemingly frosty marriage to The Rogue Prince, Perra Royce's probably frosty marriage to Walder Frey, Tywin offering Lord Yohn a marriage between Tyrion and one of his daughters, Kyle Royce being executed by The Mad King, the suspicious death of their Liege Lord Jon Arryn, Yohn and co being forced to bend the knee during Joffreys first session, Robar The Reds death at the hands of current KG and former rebel Loras Tyrell, Lysa Arryn, Robert Arryn and Littlefinger.

If they did at one point forsake The Old Gods in favour of The Seven, could it be possible Bronze Yohn has connected all this bad luck to his family's religios conversion? Perhaps House Royce is already in the process of re-conversion back to the Northern Gods. 

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

are you getting at the Long Night being a similar idea to God foresaking the people of Jerusalem in Lammentations. Care to ellaborate on your thoughts? I'm interested. 

Glad to! 

Well an extinction event such as The Long Night would be percieved by many as god/nature turning it's back on life. If an ice based extinction event were to occur in our own time, many religions would claim the cold was brought by their own deity, similiar to how The Red Comet was percieved by the various religions and armies of Westeros. Although public opinion of the Long Night is lost to time, I imagine many holy men/women would have chalked the invading armies of Ice demons up to being servants of one God or another, come to cast judgement on all the sinners.

I proposed a theory on another thread regarding the possibility that The Others intend to wipe out humanity so as to restore the balance of nature. Since The COTF went away, humanity could be called the "groundskeepers" of Planetos - as most numerous and powerful species, they are responsible for maintaining the order of the natural world, and due to the various Wars, sorcery, genetic experimentation on animals, inter-species genocide and butchery of the land, humanity has done a pretty poor job. Could the Others be The Old Gods way of clearing the canvas to begin anew?

 Now if we go by the opinion the COTF created The Others, then it could be seen as The Others are the Tree Gods extermination force, sweeping the land to clear out the humans who have disgraced the natural order of Westeros. Both The Others and Those Who Sing The Songs of Earth could be seen as forces of nature, and in reality, nature is a chaotic thing which has caused mass extinction several times over, although life goes on in the end. GRRM being described as having a fondness for nature in real life makes me think some angle like this could be possible.

If we go back to God forsaking Jerusalem, this also brings to mind The Maiden Made of Light turning her back on the world during the eastern Long Night. Much like the god of Jerusalem, The Maiden seemed to cast wrath upon humanity due to human's trecherous/sinful nature.This also bring to mind ancient empires whos were cast down just as their societies had reached insane levels of greed, lust and corruption such as The Roman and Babylonian cultures.

Repentance will not persuade God to be gracious  - this could also be pretty ominous, I'm sure many would have repented during Winter and died of frostbite anyway. 

if God is predictable, then God is just a tool of humans - This draws to mind the various charlatans seen in Planetos, such deciet is sure to rankle a few feathers when it comes to any Gods who might be watching.

So yeah...maybe "We Remember" Is actually House Royce's way of saying "We remember why the Gods turned their back upon us and caused The Long Night". Perhaps this information is contained in the Runes.

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I was surfing the web for references about those runes and found this post at reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4jxr8g/spoilers_everything_bronze_yohn_royce_rune/

 

Quote

https://imgur.com/0evd45s This is the Royce rune pattern on Bronze Yohn's cloak in the show and armour in the books. A few years ago as something to do I taught myself the runic alphabet for old english. Starting at the top right corner and going clockwise it seems to say in modern english just written phonetically in runes:

Run before your blood runs

Just thought I point that out. EDIT: Thanks for the gold... er... Bronze

So they could just be a detail without any profound significance or role in the outcome?

In any case, they've contributed to a great thread with some intriguing posts.

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@Prof. Cecily Now that's just plain badass!

Run before your blood runs, whoever translated that deserves a no-prize! 

Very ominous indeed, I wonder what it relates to. Again it makes me think of The Others, but could also be a warning against The Andal Invasion? Or a threat regarding The Royces engaging in blood magic? It also sounds a bit Bolton-ish too.

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@Crowfood's Daughter @Leo of House Cartel @The Weirwoods Eyes I love the way a collaborative discussion can put together a new possible explanation! Each of you contributed a potential piece:

  • House Bolton / House Royce connection to each other;
  • Thenn connection to runes;
  • Flaying as a form of blood magic akin to Faceless Man magic.

And now, while I'm typing, Leo has thrown in another element:

  • The Royces "lament" the loss of their ancient kingship.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter is one of the other rune-covered items, and there are nine symbolic great sword spikes around the crown. People have made a good case that the nine swords match up with the grove of nine weirwood trees beyond the Wall where Jon and Sam took their vows. But I think the nine swords may also represent nine ancient kings who were mostly united under Stark rule before Aegon took the crown from Thorren. (There are more than nine ancient northern houses conquered by the Starks, but I suspect that only nine were kings with magic powers that were united in the Stark bloodline.) Maybe control of the north goes to whichever House is best able to capture the "blood" of the nine types of magic, so the competition continues to intermarry with the right house or to otherwise capture the blood of those nine ancient kings.

What if there is an ancient and ongoing tension between the Red Kings with their blood magic, who kinda sorta bent the knee to the Starks (but not really), and the Starks with their warg magic? The Boltons wear Stark skins and the Royces wear weasel skins in their attempts to capture ancient king magic. I admit, that sable cloak is not strongly connected to the Starks, so maybe the Royces have a slightly different agenda. As Crowfood's Daughter pointed out, Ramsay had a sable cloak that he gave to the first Reek to disguise him so people would think he was Ramsay. So maybe the Royce's strategy is to look like Boltons or like the stoat/Frey family. It's all about the same old battles fought among the historic kings but putting aside open warfare and using symbolic and more subtle forms of combat.

Starks execute Night's Watch deserters in the woods (and then clean their bloody swords under the heart tree) to try to capture the blood magic of their historic enemies and to keep their Old Gods happy with blood sacrifices. It has always interested and intrigued me that Lord Commander Mormont does not execute deserters, but Ned Stark does. (When he beheads Gared, he notes that he was the fourth execution that year.)

Maybe Roose Bolton is being honest when he says that leeching helps him to control his sadistic impulses, but maybe it is also a way to prevent Starks from having access to his magic king's blood. Which makes me think of Melisandre, and her blood magic involving king's blood. What if the "god" R'hllor is based on the ancient king or kings who engaged in blood magic? We have spent a lot of time trying to figure out who might embody the Last Hero (with a lot of speculation leading to Bran or Jon, although I've also seen Jaime mentioned). Maybe we also need to figure out who will embody R'hllor. He is most often represented by fire, but maybe the king's blood is a detail that helps to clarify the  origin and foreshadowing for a legendary being.

We know from the Varamyr Sixskins prologue that there is a code of ethics regarding skinchanging, and that some skinchangers disregard the code and do what they need or want to do. It seems like flaying living humans would be one of the magical but unethical methods of skinchanging. The Boltons seem to be the only family willing to violate that taboo.

The World book makes a point of saying that there are mountain clans in the Vale that still keep the Old Gods. I think that will become significant later when the clans that followed Tyrion come back into the story. Now Jon has brought a huge number of Old Gods free folk south of the Wall to settle the Gift, including the Magnar of Thenn marrying Alys Karstark. 

Which could bring us to the point about the Thenns and their connection to runes. Among the few rune-covered items mentioned so far in the books are Tormund Giantsbane's armbands. I think the new mixing of northmen and free folk is going to clarify old legends - Ygrite knew the same stories Jon had learned from Old Nan, such as the Gendel and Gorne story, but her perspective on them was the free folk perspective. Maybe these old free folk clans will still know how to read the runes: as The Weirwoods Eyes pointed out, someone like Morna might have kept alive the ability.

As I started writing, I was thinking that the nine kings represented by the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter must have all been kings in the north. I'm thinking as I'm writing, though, and realizing that maybe only the Starks and Boltons were in the area we think of as the north. Some of the kings may have been from Beyond the Wall and the Royces were in the Vale. The Weirwoods Eyes brought up the tent made of skins of people from Sisterton - we presume that those nasty Boltons perpetrated this war crime, but what if it was the northmen working together to try to capture the magic of the "ancient king" of the Sister Islands? We know that the natives have webbed fingers, and this may represent the type of magic they carry. Also, the Sister Islands are famous for their crab stew. I associate shellfish symbolism with armor in ASOIAF: we saw a "lobstered gauntlet" hidden under the bed of the elderly Maester at the Citadel, and that gauntlet held the all-important key that Pate stole and sold to (we believe) a Faceless Man. So the magical armor symbolism would bring us back to the Royces.

I know this is one of those posts I am going to come back to in 24 hours and say, "How terribly incoherent that is!" but I have one more thought to throw in before I go. I had a pm chat with @GloubieBoulga a few days ago, and I said that I suspected the name of House Royce is related to the French word Roi, meaning king. As a native French speaker, she was kind about my guess but shared some clarifying information which I hope she doesn't mind my passing along:

About the Royce/roi, being french myself, I can precise some things : roy is effectively the old writing for roi, but the word "royce" come from the medieval french word "royse" (one of the evolutions of latin "rosa", the rose flower).

So we may have the Royces representing roses, which are also significant symbols in the books, and/or kings. Which makes me think of the sepulcher of King Tristifer Mudd at Old Stones, which is covered with roses and runes. He was the king of rivers and mountains, which describes a kind of unity in his kingdom that has been split in subsequent generations: the Vale and the Riverlands are two different things. The stonecarving also shows the king holding a war hammer that is known as the Hammer of Justice, I believe. Because I suspect that the sword Ice used to be called Justice (or that it was meant to be used with another weapon or item that united "Ice" and "Just,") I suspect that King Tristifer represents the unity toward which these ancient houses are striving. If they could figure out how to unite under a Tristifer-like king, their quest would be complete.

Maybe Tristifer's unity is the thing that House Royce remembers or needs to remember.

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49 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Prof. Cecily Now that's just plain badass!

Run before your blood runs, whoever translated that deserves a no-prize! 

Very ominous indeed, I wonder what it relates to. Again it makes me think of The Others, but could also be a warning against The Andal Invasion? Or a threat regarding The Royces engaging in blood magic? It also sounds a bit Bolton-ish too.

Well, the fact that it's a modern English phrase written out in basic runes (check out this online source http://www.vikingrune.com/rune-converter/  )makes me wonder just how seriously to take the whole runic theme in ASOIAF.

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32 minutes ago, Seams said:

There are more than nine ancient northern houses conquered by the Starks, but I suspect that only nine were kings with magic powers that were united in the Stark bloodline.) Maybe control of the north goes to whichever House is best able to capture the "blood" of the nine types of magic, so the competition continues to intermarry with the right house or to otherwise capture the blood of those nine ancient kings.

We are on the same line about the "magic blood" (for the Gift of the CotF) given to 9 "kings" (I prefer saying lineage, without knowing if the "magic blood" made the kings, or if the fact being "kings" amongst men permitted to receive the Gift). Possibly also, in that perspective, that ancient Stark had captured the "magic blood" of the Bolton, and that Bolton became flayer (of wolves) to recovery this magic blood (and that thing was forgotten with time). 

The perspective is also interesting because Stark are associated with many "animal types", not only the wolves : birds, bears, sheeps/lambs/goats/ram, shadowcat, horses (?), weasel ; but officialy they are only the "wolfblood". All that the wolfblood isn't originally in the veins of the Stark of Winterfell (it was stolen and kept "prisoner" in the weirwood of Winterfell), but the other "animals blood" really flow in their veins (throw their true parentage). 

 

37 minutes ago, Seams said:

As Crowfood's Daughter pointed out, Ramsay had a sable cloak that he gave to the first Reek to disguise him so people would think he was Ramsay.

This episode sounds like a bloody wedding : Ramsay and Reek were raping a girl, but the real couple is Ramsay and Reek. Like further Reek/Theon + Ramsay + fArya. Same schema with Renly+Loras+Margaery. And also, I suspect, for Littlefinger + Sansa + Harry Hardyng. I mean that it could be an echo of another old Stark's secret : the greenseer Brandon Stark could have skinchange his brother (the king) to bed with the maid he loved and who was married to the king, like at one moment Bran is tempted to skinchange Hodor to touch Meera. 

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36 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

We are on the same line about the "magic blood" (for the Gift of the CotF) given to 9 "kings" (I prefer saying lineage, without knowing if the "magic blood" made the kings, or if the fact being "kings" amongst men permitted to receive the Gift). Possibly also, in that perspective, that ancient Stark had captured the "magic blood" of the Bolton, and that Bolton became flayer (of wolves) to recovery this magic blood (and that thing was forgotten with time). 

The perspective is also interesting because Stark are associated with many "animal types", not only the wolves : birds, bears, sheeps/lambs/goats/ram, shadowcat, horses (?), weasel ; but officialy they are only the "wolfblood". All that the wolfblood isn't originally in the veins of the Stark of Winterfell (it was stolen and kept "prisoner" in the weirwood of Winterfell), but the other "animals blood" really flow in their veins (throw their true parentage). 

 

This episode sounds like a bloody wedding : Ramsay and Reek were raping a girl, but the real couple is Ramsay and Reek. Like further Reek/Theon + Ramsay + fArya. Same schema with Renly+Loras+Margaery. And also, I suspect, for Littlefinger + Sansa + Harry Hardyng. I mean that it could be an echo of another old Stark's secret : the greenseer Brandon Stark could have skinchange his brother (the king) to bed with the maid he loved and who was married to the king, like at one moment Bran is tempted to skinchange Hodor to touch Meera. 

Great insights Gloubie!  I have been reading your thread with interest.  Looking forward to further installments :)

ETA:  Did you see @Pain killer Jane's wonderful catch regarding Tyrion -- the greenseer-figure  in your example -- having to stand on the back of a fool in order to cloak Sansa?  That's analogous to Bran riding on Hodor's back and then later more perfidiously 'mounting' him (note the sexual language used for skinchanging/greenseeing) by taking up residence in the virtual basket, nest, or birdcage inside Hodor's body and mind, tantamount to rape, really.  Also, I'm reminded that on Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night, he tells her that in the dark she won't be able to tell the difference between him and the 'Knight of Flowers', which is along the same lines -- and also an echo of his tricksy ancestor Lann impregnating the women without their knowledge (and then the Mockingbird with his telltale 'grey-green' eyes standing on Dontos's back figuratively, in order to get into Sansa's head and knickers)!  I'm sure there are many further examples we could find.

@LmL:  When you return to the forum, please check out Gloubie's great ideas.  In your celestial terms, that would be the greenseer/sun skinchanging the comet -- ha ha!

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@Seams Always enjoy your posts my friend, you have a great eye for reading between the lines!

I'm on board with your proposals, especially the various Kings trying to assimilate the magical bloodlines into one. House Royce could definately fall into this category, as I don't think the North/South cultural divide would have been as prevailent back before The Andals. Due to the country-wide popularity of the Old Gods and various other reasons. Heck, The Twins current location seems to be a big reason for the barrier between the regions, and The Crossing is only around 600 years old. 

Could the Nine Kings represented by The Winter Crown perhaps be: Winter, Red, Marsh, Storm, Bronze, Barrow, Blackwood, Gardener and Hightower? 

I'm also down with your ideas regarding the Bolton Cloaks of Skin being a metaphor for Skinchanging. That this practice could fall into the Laws of Abomination is very interesting indeed. Now I'm beginning wonder if Roose had a cloak made from the skin of Robb Stark, what exactly happened to his body after the Grey Wind business? 

In regards to the connections between these houses, great catch with Royce being old French for Rose. We also have Lyanna's infamous "Winter Rose" aswell as the Dutch meaning of Roose = Rose.

37 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Well, the fact that it's a modern English phrase written out in basic runes (check out this online source http://www.vikingrune.com/rune-converter/  )makes me wonder just how seriously to take the whole runic theme in ASOIAF.

That's a groovy site, and I believe GRRM studied Norse Mythology and The Sagas during his youth, so I would bet the Runic theme holds alot of weight. Do the Runes shown in pictures of House Royce's banner also mean Run before your blood runs?

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18 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

...That's a groovy site, and I believe GRRM studied Norse Mythology and The Sagas during his youth, so I would bet the Runic theme holds alot of weight. Do the Runes shown in pictures of House Royce's banner also mean Run before your blood runs?

I haven't seen the House Royce banner, just the shield. 

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/House_Royce

 

added: But yes, runes. I want them to play a part of the final outcome!

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I really wouldn't hold anything at all in anything the show has done. As they have zero respect for the source material. 

Do you think you could translate the heraldry from the Wiki here? 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Royce

Of course the runes of the artwork may just be gobbeldy gook but still have significance in book.

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MREEENBYON S? ILZ (but upside down) ST S? S?GGFN

theS'sare question marked as they are orientated differently to the very quick rune search I made.  And the Z is upside down. several of the runes on the shield seem to be from different sources. So unless my very quick google is totally off it seems the artwork is just some random runes. I wouldn't place any faith in it being truly representative of the runes in world or having significance. I suspect whoever put together the show version was just having a laugh. 

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