Prevalence of Valyrian heritage?

[Sigella]

So I've recently come to realise that some posters strongly feel that Valyrian looks/heritage is really really common in all of Essos, which is pretty far from the idea I had. I was certain it was only somewhat common in Lys and the walled-in part of Volantis, and super rare otherwise.

So I thought it would be fun to discuss this as its own topic.

The statistics in my mind would be: 

1 valyrian for 1 million westerosi

1 valyrian for 1/4 million essosi

1 valyrian for 10 Volantene

1 valyrian for 2 Lyseni

If anyone else has mind-stats like this I'd really like to know what they are! And if anyone thinks of any text regarding this I'd also really like to know!

edit: 1 valyrian for 8 Tyroshi

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I agree with your statistic;

We know for certain that the Old Blood can claim unbroken lineage back to Valyria, but since then, people of all ethnicities have moved to Volantis, making the Valyrian pool smaller, but I am open to people with mixed Valyrian heritage favouring the Valyrian looks living outside the Black Walls.

Essos is made up of hundreds of ethnicities, and genetics dictate that the Valyrian silver-gold/platinum hair and purple eyes will succumb to pretty much all other traits, which makes the Valyrian pool smaller.

Lys being the place where the blood of Valyria is strongest makes sense, as it was a very common place for the Valyrians to go to as a resort and thusly made plenty of babies there. It also helps a lot that the Lysene favour blood over everything.

Westeros was never really introduced to the Valyrian blood, but I do have the impression that islands such as Dragonstone, Driftmark and Claw Isle have thick Valyrian heritage or at least ancestry because of the Targaryens, Velaryons and Celtigars.

[Sigella]

8 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I agree with your statistic;

We know for certain that the Old Blood can claim unbroken lineage back to Valyria, but since then, people of all ethnicities have moved to Volantis, making the Valyrian pool smaller, but I am open to people with mixed Valyrian heritage favouring the Valyrian looks living outside the Black Walls.

Essos is made up of hundreds of ethnicities, and genetics dictate that the Valyrian silver-gold/platinum hair and purple eyes will succumb to pretty much all other traits, which makes the Valyrian pool smaller.

Lys being the place where the blood of Valyria is strongest makes sense, as it was a very common place for the Valyrians to go to as a resort and thusly made plenty of babies there. It also helps a lot that the Lysene favour blood over everything.

Westeros was never really introduced to the Valyrian blood, but I do have the impression that islands such as Dragonstone, Driftmark and Claw Isle have thick Valyrian heritage or at least ancestry because of the Targaryens, Velaryons and Celtigars.

Thank you!

[Sigella]

@Lady Blizzardborn & @bent branch you are very welcome to chime in

[Roswell]

Blonde hair itself is not rare.  Silver-blonde is not common but it's not very rare.  Blue eyes is not rare.  Purple/violet eyes are rarer than blue.  The combination of silver-blonde hair and purple eyes may be enough to consider someone to have Valyrian features.  However, the shape of the face, perhaps the shape of the eyes may also be features.  It's not hard to find someone with silver-blonde hair and purple eyes in Lys.  But those people won't necessarily look like a Targaryen.  I would expect Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys shared a resemblance beyond silver-blond hair and eyes of violet.  Perhaps the shape of the nose, the eyes, the mouth, and the chin are common. 

[bent branch]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

@Lady Blizzardborn & @bent branch you are very welcome to chime in

I don't give a damn about how many Valyrian looking people there are. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

[Sigella]

10 hours ago, bent branch said:

I don't give a damn about how many Valyrian looking people there are. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

Lovely as always

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Blonde hair itself is not rare.  Silver-blonde is not common but it's not very rare.  Blue eyes is not rare.  Purple/violet eyes are rarer than blue.  The combination of silver-blonde hair and purple eyes may be enough to consider someone to have Valyrian features.  However, the shape of the face, perhaps the shape of the eyes may also be features.  It's not hard to find someone with silver-blonde hair and purple eyes in Lys.  But those people won't necessarily look like a Targaryen.  I would expect Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys shared a resemblance beyond silver-blond hair and eyes of violet.  Perhaps the shape of the nose, the eyes, the mouth, and the chin are common. 

"Fair skin without blemish, aquiline nose" are the ones that comes to mind. But I think you're right beyond that, their parents were siblings after all...  

Only thing that stands out is that Viserys has gaunt features.

[Shi Qiang]

On 3/23/2017 at 4:43 PM, The Transporter said:

Blonde hair itself is not rare.  Silver-blonde is not common but it's not very rare.  Blue eyes is not rare.  Purple/violet eyes are rarer than blue.  The combination of silver-blonde hair and purple eyes may be enough to consider someone to have Valyrian features.  However, the shape of the face, perhaps the shape of the eyes may also be features.  It's not hard to find someone with silver-blonde hair and purple eyes in Lys.  But those people won't necessarily look like a Targaryen.  I would expect Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys shared a resemblance beyond silver-blond hair and eyes of violet.  Perhaps the shape of the nose, the eyes, the mouth, and the chin are common. 

Jessica Simpson and Ronda Rousey both have blonde hair.  They don't look the same.  Just because someone has blonde hair and blue eyes doesn't mean they could pass for a Targaryen.  Do the Targaryens look like the Velaryons?  Doubtful. 

[Sigella]

On 2017-03-24 at 9:59 PM, Allardyce said:

Jessica Simpson and Ronda Rousey both have blonde hair.  They don't look the same.  Just because someone has blonde hair and blue eyes doesn't mean they could pass for a Targaryen.  Do the Targaryens look like the Velaryons?  Doubtful. 

Although... In tPatQ we are told Laenar Velaryon having silver hair and the aquiline nose (he is half Targ by his mother I think). So the Velaryons should look like the Targs, since they've intermarried like a bunch.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/23/2017 at 6:46 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I agree with your statistic;

We know for certain that the Old Blood can claim unbroken lineage back to Valyria, but since then, people of all ethnicities have moved to Volantis, making the Valyrian pool smaller, but I am open to people with mixed Valyrian heritage favouring the Valyrian looks living outside the Black Walls.

Essos is made up of hundreds of ethnicities, and genetics dictate that the Valyrian silver-gold/platinum hair and purple eyes will succumb to pretty much all other traits, which makes the Valyrian pool smaller.

Lys being the place where the blood of Valyria is strongest makes sense, as it was a very common place for the Valyrians to go to as a resort and thusly made plenty of babies there. It also helps a lot that the Lysene favour blood over everything.

Westeros was never really introduced to the Valyrian blood, but I do have the impression that islands such as Dragonstone, Driftmark and Claw Isle have thick Valyrian heritage or at least ancestry because of the Targaryens, Velaryons and Celtigars.

If this were the real world I would agree, but this is a fantasy series that has magical genetics. We can't be certain of Valyrian looks yielding to all others. Even in the pretty well-established pattern of non-Valyrian + Valyrian equaling a firstborn who takes after the non-Valyrian parent, the other children usually have more standard Valyrian looks.

On 3/23/2017 at 3:43 PM, The Transporter said:

Blonde hair itself is not rare.  Silver-blonde is not common but it's not very rare.  Blue eyes is not rare.  Purple/violet eyes are rarer than blue.  The combination of silver-blonde hair and purple eyes may be enough to consider someone to have Valyrian features.  However, the shape of the face, perhaps the shape of the eyes may also be features.  It's not hard to find someone with silver-blonde hair and purple eyes in Lys.  But those people won't necessarily look like a Targaryen.  I would expect Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys shared a resemblance beyond silver-blond hair and eyes of violet.  Perhaps the shape of the nose, the eyes, the mouth, and the chin are common. 

You're talking real world. And that's nice but it's of only so much value in a series where people have magic blood.

Actually they don't have violet eyes. Dany does, but Rhaegar's were indigo and Viserys' were lilac. There are variations in the purple even among full siblings with Valyrian blood, as there are variations in the hair color from silver to silver-gold and everything in between.

We don't have any information on Valyrian noses, eye-shapes, or chins. We do have the unnaturally beautiful bit (whatever that means) and the silver hair and purple eyes.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/23/2017 at 3:38 PM, Sigella said:

@Lady Blizzardborn & @bent branch you are very welcome to chime in

Done so above, but I wanted to mention that you forgot the Tyroshi contingent in your opening post. Tyrosh should be in there somewhere between Volantis and Lys.

[Sigella]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Done so above, but I wanted to mention that you forgot the Tyroshi contingent in your opening post. Tyrosh should be in there somewhere between Volantis and Lys.

Its just that its never mentioned, not like "half the whores in Lys", or "twenty slaves for every free volantene". Or did I miss something?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

15 hours ago, Sigella said:

Its just that its never mentioned, not like "half the whores in Lys", or "twenty slaves for every free volantene". Or did I miss something?

Tyrosh was one of the main colonies Valyria established, and has been involved in some serious stuff history-wise. The city's inner walls are fused black dragonstone. Their dialect is a corrupted form of High Valyrian. The term Archon, used for their leader, came from Valyria.

The city was orginally a Valyrian military colony to give the Freehold control of shipping in the Stepstones, but turned into a mercantile city after a special sea snail was discovered that revolutionized the dye market in Planetos. It went from outpost to major city in one generation.

There were dragonlords in Tyrosh who survived the Doom but the locals killed the dragons and their riders. No info on whether the families were killed or just the ones who had already ridden dragons. Interestingly the temple to Trios the three-headed god is in Tyrosh. He was probably one of the many Valyrian gods, and while there's a tower dedicated to Trios in Braavos, there's no mention of a temple to him (which is odd because they have temples to pretty much every other god and religion in the series)

Volantis tried to conquer Tyrosh during the Century of Blood, like they'd conquered Myr and Lys, but Tyrosh apparently was a bridge too far for them and their whole mini-empire collapsed as a result of that ill-judged attempt. Aegon the Conqueror and Argillac Durrandon helped Tyrosh repulse the Volantene forces.

Tyrosh was one-third of the Kingdom of the Three Daughters, with Myr and Lys. 

Aegon IV chose Rohanne, daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh to marry Daemon Waters (future Blackfyre). Kiera of Tyrosh was married to Valarr Targaryen, Baelor Breakspear's son, and at the time a future king of Westeros. Kiera later married Maekar's eldest son Daeron. For both marriages, it was expected that Kiera would become queen of Westeros.

Tyrosh is the unofficial Essosi headquarters of the Blackfyres. That's where Aegor fled with Daemon's widow and surviving children after the first Rebellion. It's also where he crowned Haegon.

Tyrosh is the place Viserys and Daenerys lived the longest, which would have been pretty hard to do if they stood out amongst a very small Valyrian population. 

With all that it seems like a pretty good bet that a large share of the non-slave population (and after that war with Volantis probably some of the slaves population as well) would be Valyrian. The lack of mentions of the Valyrian population level in the city may be a deliberate move by the author to keep people from making certain connections.

 

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Tyrosh was one of the main colonies Valyria established, and has been involved in some serious stuff history-wise. The city's inner walls are fused black dragonstone. Their dialect is a corrupted form of High Valyrian. The term Archon, used for their leader, came from Valyria.

The city was orginally a Valyrian military colony to give the Freehold control of shipping in the Stepstones, but turned into a mercantile city after a special sea snail was discovered that revolutionized the dye market in Planetos. It went from outpost to major city in one generation.

There were dragonlords in Tyrosh who survived the Doom but the locals killed the dragons and their riders. No info on whether the families were killed or just the ones who had already ridden dragons. Interestingly the temple to Trios the three-headed god is in Tyrosh. He was probably one of the many Valyrian gods, and while there's a tower dedicated to Trios in Braavos, there's no mention of a temple to him (which is odd because they have temples to pretty much every other god and religion in the series)

Volantis tried to conquer Tyrosh during the Century of Blood, like they'd conquered Myr and Lys, but Tyrosh apparently was a bridge too far for them and their whole mini-empire collapsed as a result of that ill-judged attempt. Aegon the Conqueror and Argillac Durrandon helped Tyrosh repulse the Volantene forces.

Tyrosh was one-third of the Kingdom of the Three Daughters, with Myr and Lys. 

Aegon IV chose Rohanne, daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh to marry Daemon Waters (future Blackfyre). Kiera of Tyrosh was married to Valarr Targaryen, Baelor Breakspear's son, and at the time a future king of Westeros. Kiera later married Maekar's eldest son Daeron. For both marriages, it was expected that Kiera would become queen of Westeros.

Tyrosh is the unofficial Essosi headquarters of the Blackfyres. That's where Aegor fled with Daemon's widow and surviving children after the first Rebellion. It's also where he crowned Haegon.

Tyrosh is the place Viserys and Daenerys lived the longest, which would have been pretty hard to do if they stood out amongst a very small Valyrian population. 

With all that it seems like a pretty good bet that a large share of the non-slave population (and after that war with Volantis probably some of the slaves population as well) would be Valyrian. The lack of mentions of the Valyrian population level in the city may be a deliberate move by the author to keep people from making certain connections.

 

Good stuff!

I did get slave-freeman stats from the wiki, though: 3 slaves for every freeman.

 

Also I'm a bit uncertain of all these "wars" of the free cities: we're told they mostly use companies and sellswords; that they mostly fight in the Stepstones, at sea and in the Disputed Lands; and the fact that we're not told of one single sacking of any of these free cities is suspicious to me. Kind of makes me wonder if they ever had a real taste of war at all.

[Lion of the West]

58 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Good stuff!

I did get slave-freeman stats from the wiki, though: 3 slaves for every freeman.

 

Also I'm a bit uncertain of all these "wars" of the free cities: we're told they mostly use companies and sellswords; that they mostly fight in the Stepstones, at sea and in the Disputed Lands; and the fact that we're not told of one single sacking of any of these free cities is suspicious to me. Kind of makes me wonder if they ever had a real taste of war at all.

Well, there's at least one sack I can recall. The Golden Company sacked Qohor when Qohor tried to cheat Bittersteel on his paycheck. So obviously they could sack cities, if they want it.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Golden_Company#History

But you are right that we haven't heard more of sackings in the history of Essos.

 

[Sigella]

31 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Well, there's at least one sack I can recall. The Golden Company sacked Qohor when Qohor tried to cheat Bittersteel on his paycheck. So obviously they could sack cities, if they want it.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Golden_Company#History

But you are right that we haven't heard more of sackings in the history of Essos.

 

Thank you, now we know of one at least.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/29/2017 at 9:41 AM, Sigella said:

Good stuff!

I did get slave-freeman stats from the wiki, though: 3 slaves for every freeman.

 

Also I'm a bit uncertain of all these "wars" of the free cities: we're told they mostly use companies and sellswords; that they mostly fight in the Stepstones, at sea and in the Disputed Lands; and the fact that we're not told of one single sacking of any of these free cities is suspicious to me. Kind of makes me wonder if they ever had a real taste of war at all.

Yeah and in Tyrosh specifically trade is considered more honorable and desirable than a career in arms (despite their ornate helmet manufacturing industry). Which makes me even more curious about Daario the Tyroshi sellsword. I mean, I know they have sellswords (there's even one with Robb's army at one point) but there are some things about Daario that don't wash with the "just a sellsword" thing he's got going on.

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yeah and in Tyrosh specifically trade is considered more honorable and desirable than a career in arms (despite their ornate helmet manufacturing industry). Which makes me even more curious about Daario the Tyroshi sellsword. I mean, I know they have sellswords (there's even one with Robb's army at one point) but there are some things about Daario that don't wash with the "just a sellsword" thing he's got going on.

Well, I too get con-man-vibes off Daario, but I dont think he is actually someone else in a way that matters.  I'm more in the view that he might be a lowborn tyroshi male named Pate, than that he is a secret Targ or Blackfyre.

[Sigella]

On 2017-03-29 at 5:39 PM, LionoftheWest said:

Well, there's at least one sack I can recall. The Golden Company sacked Qohor when Qohor tried to cheat Bittersteel on his paycheck. So obviously they could sack cities, if they want it.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Golden_Company#History

But you are right that we haven't heard more of sackings in the history of Essos.

 

And isn't  that like super weird? Especially with them being at war with one another exactly all of the time?