Baelish and the Wild Wolf

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

How do you know he didn't want those things?  Rickard went to KL to try to tamp down the most immediate crisis, i.e., the threat to execute Brandon.  That's just practical, given the circumstances.

I don't know man, if I was the Warden of the North with southern ambitions and i thought some mad man had my daughter abducted I'm calling my banners not going to kingslanding with a small retinue of men to straighten out a misunderstanding. I get the feeling Rickard was attempting to get his son back and plead/parlay with the Mad king.  Littlefinger benefited the most from the war.  And he didn't have to tell Brandon to spread a rumor.

[Colonel Green]

58 minutes ago, Damein Blackfyre true king said:

I don't know man, if I was the Warden of the North with southern ambitions and i thought some mad man had my daughter abducted I'm calling my banners not going to kingslanding with a small retinue of men to straighten out a misunderstanding. I get the feeling Rickard was attempting to get his son back and plead/parlay with the Mad king.  

Rickard was already in the south, I believe, and had no time to call his banners.  Beyond which, if this "misunderstanding" was that widely known, it would be known everywhere.  It wasn't some localized event created by Petyr Baelish.

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Littlefinger benefited the most from the war.

???  No he didn't.

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And he didn't have to tell Brandon to spread a rumor.

How exactly would he spread a rumour to Brandon's traveling party from his sickbed (or else, from back at the Fingers)?  Brandon is much closer to the site of the abduction than Littlefinger would be, he would have known of Lyanna's disappearance before anybody at Riverrun did.

[Tom Cruise]

the "fool" part of that might imply Brandon was tricked or misled?  

[Renly's Banana]

34 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

the "fool" part of that might imply Brandon was tricked or misled?  

Tricked or misled into what? Nobody knew where Lyanna was at the time, just that Rhaegar had "abducted" her. Going to King's Landing to find them was a fairly rational thing to do, actually. Maybe he was reckless charging there by himself, but not foolish.

[Rosetta Stone]

15 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence that Baelish may have fed Brandon false, or maybe less than truthful, information to Brandon after Lyannas 'abduction'?  The goal, obviously, being that it would cause Brandon to act rashly?  Would Baelish have been in any position to speak with Brandon around this time?  I can't remember specifically, but at this point would Baelish have been back at the Fingers?  If so I guess there's no opportunity for the two to have spoken together. 

Brandon would ignore Baelish.  Brandon just acted like the fool that he was.  The fault is all on Brandon's shoulders.

[Lord Wraith]

There is no proof of this being the case, just fan speculation. Much like Baelish being behind Ned's execution is pure speculation that people like to treat as fact. Honestly Baelish isn't behind everything plenty of other players in the game.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

19 hours ago, cinna said:

In GoT Baelish asks Ned if Brandon ever spoke of him, Ned replies "Often, and with some heat."
But if the two only met once, when Brandon came to Riverrun, and then took off after Rhaegar and Lyanna,
When on earth did Brandon and Ned have time to talk about Baelish?

I don't think it was Petyr's machinations driving the plot at that early stage, but I do think something funny is buried here.

Who says that Brandon and Petyr only met once? We don't know how many times Brandon visited Riverrun, but I imagine that Hoster would have wanted to see Brandon in person at least once before promising Catelyn's hand in marriage to him. Additionally, Catelyn speaks of the differences between Ned and Brandon's personalities, suggesting she knew Brandon better than she could have after just one visit.

 

16 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

How long before Harrenhal did Brandon and Baelish have their 'duel' ?

The duel was after the tourney.

 

15 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Beyond that, Baelish was still a boy at this point, not the devious schemer he would become.

Exactly.

[Tom Cruise]

Right.  Brandon left to meet up with his father right after the duel.... so very unlikely Petyr had any influence in Brandon diverting to kings landing.

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

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Yes it's fan spec just like half of the stuff we discuss. It's as plausible as Ashara as being Jon's mother.  Littlefinger is crafty he has stated he wanted revenge on the stark and Brandon running to kings landing almost caused the  house to be extingushed.  As how he did it I don't know.  Maybe he bribed a maestor to send a raven.  Maybe he told Cat ( we know she likes a rumor) Maybe he spread it through the brothels.  It is plausible that Littlefinger had a hand in it because of his recent humbling at the hands of Brandon with the woman he desired.  Is there a lot of book evidence, no.  

[Shi Qiang]

On 3/23/2017 at 11:12 AM, Tom Cruise said:

Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence that Baelish may have fed Brandon false, or maybe less than truthful, information to Brandon after Lyannas 'abduction'?  The goal, obviously, being that it would cause Brandon to act rashly?  Would Baelish have been in any position to speak with Brandon around this time?  I can't remember specifically, but at this point would Baelish have been back at the Fingers?  If so I guess there's no opportunity for the two to have spoken together. 

Possible but so far, no evidence of it.  I am inclined to say no, but I would not put it past Petyr Baelish.  He was very bitter over the humiliation he got from Brandon Stark.  Getting even definitely crossed his mind.

[Lord Wraith]

On 3/23/2017 at 11:19 AM, Ygrain said:

You're not the first to wonder this :-)

GRRM stated that Baelish was at the Fingers during the Rebellion, busy recovering, but I'm not sure if this entirely rules out the possibility of a chance encounter on his way home.

Another hot candidate for misinformation would be Varys, and next come the Maesters, I guess.

I think people really like blaming Baelish for every bad thing that happens.

Its hard to pin this down concerning the timeline of the duel vs when Lyanna was taken etc.

I keep wondering if Baelish did in fact see or hear something on the way back to the Fingers. Then he sents the letter to Cat which Cat burns. Probably doesn't happen but would be ironic, yet again the timeline is so muddled its impossible to say.

On 3/23/2017 at 8:42 PM, Colonel Green said:

Brandon was traveling in the Riverlands when he heard about Lyanna's abduction.  He was not at Riverrun.  Even if Baelish was still at Riverrun at the time (unclear), it would be impossible for him to have told Brandon anything.

Beyond that, Baelish was still a boy at this point, not the devious schemer he would become.

Not to mention being half dead from the duel with Brandon.

On 3/23/2017 at 10:07 PM, Renly's Banana said:

I don't think Littlefinger is behind this one. Mainly because we know Brandon hated Baelish, and wouldn't have listened to his counsel anyway. Baelish was also banished from Riverrun at this time after the whole Lysa incident, so no chance of them being in close proximity. 
Brandon is described as brash and impulsive by almost everyone in our story, so it was most likely his own idea to go to King's Landing.

NOW.. as to what Varys may have whispered in Aerys' ear, however, is another matter entirely. 

Also Varys got Aerys to go to Harrenhal ruining Rhaegar's possible plan to hold a great council. Varys is the one trying to cause chaos at this point.

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

I think people really like blaming Baelish for every bad thing that happens.

Well, yeah, but you can't deny he had a motive

The more I think of it, I think that GRRM used the same motive as he did in Worlorn - a false message lures a guy to a situation and place where shit is bound to hit the fan. It's such a convenient parallel with Brandon's act in KL that I doubt its coincidence (not to mention the rivalry over a woman, either).

[ravenous reader]

On 3/23/2017 at 8:42 PM, Colonel Green said:

Brandon was traveling in the Riverlands when he heard about Lyanna's abduction.  He was not at Riverrun.  Even if Baelish was still at Riverrun at the time (unclear), it would be impossible for him to have told Brandon anything.

Beyond that, Baelish was still a boy at this point, not the devious schemer he would become.

He was always a devious schemer, even as a boy:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IV

Catelyn ignored the implied question. "I am not accustomed to being summoned like a serving wench," she said icily. "As a boy, you still knew the meaning of courtesy."

"I've angered you, my lady. That was never my intent." He looked contrite. The look brought back vivid memories for Catelyn. He had been a sly child, but after his mischiefs he always looked contrite; it was a gift he had. The years had not changed him much

 

On 3/24/2017 at 1:23 AM, Tom Cruise said:

the "fool" part of that might imply Brandon was tricked or misled?  

Indeed.  

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, yeah, but you can't deny he had a motive

The more I think of it, I think that GRRM used the same motive as he did in Worlorn - a false message lures a guy to a situation and place where shit is bound to hit the fan. It's such a convenient parallel with Brandon's act in KL that I doubt its coincidence (not to mention the rivalry over a woman, either).

That's interesting. I haven't read 'Dying of the Light'.  Who sent the false message there, and why?

While the logistics of Baelish being the source of misinformation in this case seem doubtful, it certainly fits, however, with the symbolism surrounding him of a mocking bird singing false tunes to lure the unwary.  Significantly, songs and messages carry over distance (that's why in Ned's fever dream he sees the moths representing the lies taking wing from Baelish's mouth).  He also wasn't in King's Landing at the time of Joffrey's death.  In fact, he's conspicuous by his absence at the time of many of his ordained misdeeds and meddlings, so I don't think we should rule him out as a suspect, or ever hastily presume that distance presents an obstacle for the likes of him.

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"Tell me, Alayne - which is more dangerous, the dagger brandished by an enemy, or the hidden one pressed to your back by someone you never even see?"

"The hidden dagger."

"There's a clever girl." He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds. "When the Imp sent off her guards, the queen had Ser Lancel hire sellswords for her. Lancel found her the Kettleblacks, which delighted your little lord husband, since the lads were in his pay through his man Bronn." He chuckled. "But it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King's Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords. Three hidden daggers, Alayne, now perfectly placed."

"So one of the Kettleblacks put the poison in Joff 's cup?" Ser Osmund had been near the king all night, she remembered.

"Did I say that?" Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger and offered half to Sansa. "The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme . . . and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him." He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. "I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers," he complained, wiping his hands. "Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean."

Sansa spooned up some juice from her own orange. "But if it wasn't the Kettleblacks and it wasn't Ser Dontos . . . you weren't even in the city, and it couldn't have been Tyrion . . . "

"No more guesses, sweetling?"

She shook her head. "I don't . . . "

Petyr smiled. "I will wager you that at some point during the evening someone told you that your hair net was crooked and straightened it for you."

Sansa raised a hand to her mouth. "You cannot mean . . . she wanted to take me to Highgarden, to marry me to her grandson . . . "

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

"Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras's inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid knightly brother? And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras's case.

"Be that as it may. Lady Olenna was not about to let Joff harm her precious darling granddaughter, but unlike her son she also realized that under all his flowers and finery, Ser Loras is as hot-tempered as Jaime Lannister. Toss Joffrey, Margaery, and Loras in a pot, and you've got the makings for kingslayer stew. The old woman understood something else as well. Her son was determined to make Margaery a queen, and for that he needed a king . . . but he did not need Joffrey. We shall have another wedding soon, wait and see. Margaery will marry Tommen. She'll keep her queenly crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she especially wants, but what does that matter? The great western alliance will be preserved . . . for a time, at least."

 

[Colonel Green]

12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

He was always a devious schemer, even as a boy:

He was a prankster.  That's not the same thing.

[SeaWitch]

He was a badly injured boy, stuck out in the arse end of nowhere, dreams in ruins, no money, no friends, no influence, and no Maester with ravens.He was too far away from events to have been involved, just by speed of communications, surely?  I mean, consummate opportunist, yes, but he was very young, and still fairly untutored in gamesmanship.  

 I doubt news of events reached the Drearfort until it was all over, and he was just moping over his cold mutton.  The unread letter was probably a pathetic passionate scrawl that he waited for an answer on, until hope curdled into total bitterness and despair.

[Ygrain]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That's interesting. I haven't read 'Dying of the Light'.  Who sent the false message there, and why?

A distinctly non-warrior type convinced of his intellectual superiority had sex with the woman he desired when she was inebriated and didn't remember any of it afterwards, not to mention that she was married (a polyandrous marriage in a warrior culture). So he faked a  message from her asking for help and sent it to her exboyfriend, thus luring him to the world where she was with her warrior husbands. 

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

While the logistics of Baelish being the source of misinformation in this case seem doubtful, it certainly fits, however, with the symbolism surrounding him of a mocking bird singing false tunes to lure the unwary.  Significantly, songs and messages carry over distance (that's why in Ned's fever dream he sees the moths representing the lies taking wing from Baelish's mouth).  He also wasn't in King's Landing at the time of Joffrey's death.  In fact, he's conspicuous by his absence at the time of many of his ordained misdeeds and meddlings, so I don't think we should rule him out as a suspect, or ever hastily presume that distance presents an obstacle for the likes of him.

I would point out that at this stage, the misinformation may not have been fully intentional - I recall a discussion where someone suggested that the young Baelish merely might have wanted to prick Brandon and the outcome far exceeded anything he could have imagined. Seeing the impact of a few words then would have set him on becoming deliberately the manipulator and schemer we know today. I consider this a plausible character development.

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

He was a badly injured boy, stuck out in the arse end of nowhere, dreams in ruins, no money, no friends, no influence, and no Maester with ravens.He was too far away from events to have been involved, just by speed of communications, surely?  I mean, consummate opportunist, yes, but he was very young, and still fairly untutored in gamesmanship.  

 I doubt news of events reached the Drearfort until it was all over, and he was just moping over his cold mutton.  The unread letter was probably a pathetic passionate scrawl that he waited for an answer on, until hope curdled into total bitterness and despair.

You're certainly right that he wouldn't have been able to affect much from the Fingers. The theory relies on a chance encounter, like when Tyrion ran into Cat at the Crossroads Inn. He did have some means of communication, though, because he wrote to Cat after Brandon's death.

[SeaWitch]

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You're certainly right that he wouldn't have been able to affect much from the Fingers. The theory relies on a chance encounter, like when Tyrion ran into Cat at the Crossroads Inn. He did have some means of communication, though, because he wrote to Cat after Brandon's death.

The geography is wrong, surely? He's been sent off east to the Vale, before Brandon is kicking about the Riverlands.

Sending a letter probably entails either travelling to somewhere with ravens, or sending it with someone.  But Cat's letter was sent direct to Riverrun. Sending a message to someone in transit would definitely require a person and a fair degree of certainty as to their whereabouts.

I'll grant that Petyr would have dearly loved to serve Brandon a bad turn in exchange for his near-gutting, but I think he was more "bloody hell, will of the gods, second chance " when he heard about it later.  Fifteen year old evil supergenius is getting into Artemis Fowl territory. I just don't think he had the contacts or the intelligence machinery to do anything at this point.

(I am also a new reader, and flounder cheerfully amidst the forums, willing to be proved wrong.)

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

He was a prankster.  That's not the same thing.

He was devious enough at an early age in order to, more often than not, successfully fake contrition with the aim of evading accountability.  Absence of conscience combined with a fake or absent emotion, expressed relative to the world...Taken together with what we know about his subsequent personality development, we can already see the seeds of the psychopath stirring in the youth, even before the hopes of his so-called 'romantic idealism' had been dashed by Brandon Stark and the Tullys, upon which his personality is so often blamed.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, SeaWitch said:

The geography is wrong, surely? He's been sent off east to the Vale, before Brandon is kicking about the Riverlands.

Sending a letter probably entails either travelling to somewhere with ravens, or sending it with someone.  But Cat's letter was sent direct to Riverrun. Sending a message to someone in transit would definitely require a person and a fair degree of certainty as to their whereabouts.

I'll grant that Petyr would have dearly loved to serve Brandon a bad turn in exchange for his near-gutting, but I think he was more "bloody hell, will of the gods, second chance " when he heard about it later.  Fifteen year old evil supergenius is getting into Artemis Fowl territory. I just don't think he had the contacts or the intelligence machinery to do anything at this point.

(I am also a new reader, and flounder cheerfully amidst the forums, willing to be proved wrong.)

:-)

That one would be highly improbable, I agree. What I had in mind was accidentally hearing something about Lyanna, then running into Brandon (figuratively, it would be rather Brandon running into the litter in which LF was carried), and saying something that made Brandon go bananas and rush into KL. Seeing in retrospect what his words caused, LF would learn his lesson and start his scheming career. (My, I am SO looking forward to the moment when his schemes take a U turn and bite his ass! - Or rather, chop off his head.)