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Baelish and the Wild Wolf


Tom Cruise

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22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

:-)

That one would be highly improbable, I agree. What I had in mind was accidentally hearing something about Lyanna, then running into Brandon (figuratively, it would be rather Brandon running into the litter in which LF was carried), and saying something that made Brandon go bananas and rush into KL. Seeing in retrospect what his words caused, LF would learn his lesson and start his scheming career. (My, I am SO looking forward to the moment when his schemes take a U turn and bite his ass! - Or rather, chop off his head.)

It just doesn't gel for me, in terms of logistics, and geography, but I'm prepared to be wrong.  Rhaegar had absconded with Lyanna near Harrenhal (what was she doing there?) and Brandon found out somewhere between Winterfell and Riverrun, and changed direction to head to KL.  Petyr would have been long back in his little tower by then.  (Fortnight from duel, then a week to get past the King's Road? If Brandon had returned to Winterfell in order to have to travel back, that's a lot longer trip.)

Also, I want the little twister to get away with it. Or at least get away alive. I'm probably reading these books in the wrong spirit.  

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15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're certainly right that he wouldn't have been able to affect much from the Fingers. The theory relies on a chance encounter, like when Tyrion ran into Cat at the Crossroads Inn. He did have some means of communication, though, because he wrote to Cat after Brandon's death.

Ah yes the Crossroads Inn, aka the Inn of Plot Contrivance... ;)

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

:-)

That one would be highly improbable, I agree. What I had in mind was accidentally hearing something about Lyanna, then running into Brandon (figuratively, it would be rather Brandon running into the litter in which LF was carried), and saying something that made Brandon go bananas and rush into KL. Seeing in retrospect what his words caused, LF would learn his lesson and start his scheming career. (My, I am SO looking forward to the moment when his schemes take a U turn and bite his ass! - Or rather, chop off his head.)

Shame the timeline is so muddled at this point. I figure Brandon and Petyr have their duel. Petyr is almost killed and Brandon heads North to meet his Father, while Petyr spends a few weeks healing before being sent off.

Also why would Brandon trust Baelish? Ned remarks that Brandon wasn't fond of him. He must have visited Riverrun before since Cat was betrothed to Brandon at 12.

Something that has always bugged me that Ned married Cat on the same day that she was supposed to marry Brandon. Yet how could Ned sail across the bay, call the banners, head south, save Robert and then marry Cat on the same day that Brandon was supposed to? Might need to start another topic on that.

13 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

It just doesn't gel for me, in terms of logistics, and geography, but I'm prepared to be wrong.  Rhaegar had absconded with Lyanna near Harrenhal (what was she doing there?) and Brandon found out somewhere between Winterfell and Riverrun, and changed direction to head to KL.  Petyr would have been long back in his little tower by then.  (Fortnight from duel, then a week to get past the King's Road? If Brandon had returned to Winterfell in order to have to travel back, that's a lot longer trip.)

Also, I want the little twister to get away with it. Or at least get away alive. I'm probably reading these books in the wrong spirit.  

Lyanna was probably coming South for Brandon's wedding. Begs the question why she wasn't with Rickard.

 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Also why would Brandon trust Baelish? 

Does Brandon strike you as a rational type? :-)

2 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Something that has always bugged me that Ned married Cat on the same day that she was supposed to marry Brandon. Yet how could Ned sail across the bay, call the banners, head south, save Robert and then marry Cat on the same day that Brandon was supposed to? Might need to start another topic on that.

Don't forget to include the fighting in the Vale. 

- BTW, why was Ned still in the Vale at that time, wasn't he supposed to attend his brother's wedding?

2 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Lyanna was probably coming South for Brandon's wedding. Begs the question why she wasn't with Rickard.

Weeeell... perhaps she ran off?

Or, she might have stayed at HH after the tourney, that would simplify things. As a Stormland's-lady-to-be, she certainly could use acquiring some manners.

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4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Does Brandon strike you as a rational type? :-)

Don't forget to include the fighting in the Vale. 

- BTW, why was Ned still in the Vale at that time, wasn't he supposed to attend his brother's wedding?

Weeeell... perhaps she ran off?

Or, she might have stayed at HH after the tourney, that would simplify things. As a Stormland's-lady-to-be, she certainly could use acquiring some manners.

Part of me wonder how much the Wild Wolf thing is true and how much is heresay still you have a point Brandon probably isn't thinking.

I didn't think Ned did fight in the Vale. Robert and Ned went to retake Gulltown so Robert could raise the Stormlands while Ned headed North to raise the banners.

I do wonder why Ned and Robert were in the Vale at that time. Likely preparing to head to the Riverlands for Brandon's wedding before the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar thing.

Again we have a timeline issue, how long was it from the Tournament at Harrenhal to the kidnapping? Had to be around a half a year by my estimation.

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1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

Again we have a timeline issue, how long was it from the Tournament at Harrenhal to the kidnapping? Had to be around a half a year by my estimation.

It used to be about a year, per a SSM, but the World Book seems to have condensed it a bit, though it is unclear what it means that Rhaegar eventually came back to the Riverlands.

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7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Something that has always bugged me that Ned married Cat on the same day that she was supposed to marry Brandon.

Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

The way I see it, "the day" that came at last refers only to "the day she was wed", not a specific date that had been agreed upon for her wedding to Brandon.

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I think some assumptions might be off about the whereabouts of the players at the time. 

Consider this:

Quote

“The first time I saw Riverrun, I was a squire green as summer grass,” Jaime told his cousin. “Old Sumner Crakehall sent me to deliver a message, one he swore could not be entrusted to a raven. Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me beside his daughter Lysa at every meal.” -AFFC 33, Jaime

Obviously this is a recollection of events prior to the Tourney of Harrenhal, but it's that bolded line that intrigues me - a lord using his squire as errand boy to deliver messages that are too risky for ravenmail.

Now consider this:

Brandon leaves Riverrun after the duel.  "Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return."       Then, en route back to Riverrun, Brandon "heard about Lyanna"...and goes hell bent for leather WITH HIS POSSE OF VALEMEN - Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister - toward King's Landing.

Brandon's post-duel mystery errand took him to the Vale. From Riverrun.     I suspect Brandon had long been acting as a messenger boy for Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn, and had been for some time - hence why Ned, holed up in the Vale, seemed to have gotten an earful from Brandon about Littlefinger.   If he had been traveling back and forth passing secret messages regarding a STAB alliance (that required extended stays at the respective houses as referenced in the Jaime quote above), Brandon would have intimate knowledge of the creepy little perv that wouldn't stop putting the moves on his betrothed...knowledge that he could share with Ned during his turns at the Eyrie.      

It also makes far more logistical sense to have Brandon be traveling from another location than Rickard, and explains why they weren't together as a giant wedding party when they "heard about Lyanna".    If Brandon was on the tail end of his mystery errand and was traveling West on the High Road, while Rickard with his larger and slower entourage was traveling South on the Kingsroad, they could easily meet up at the Inn of the Crossroads and complete the journey together...but that didn't happen, because IMO Brandon got the news before Rickard reached the IotC.

Anyway, my point with this is that Brandon's movements are indicative of a Stark/Tully/Arryn conspiracy going on in the shadows.      It's also possible, what with his convalescence in the care of Riverrun's master and his later travel back to the Fingers after being wounded/humiliated by one conspirator and exiled by another, that Littlefinger used his gift of trickery and deceit to get revenge.

 

Something else that this brings up, though, that remains a mystery to me:   Lysa's pregnancy.

The wedding is announced; Brandon and Petry duel.   The story is that Lysa nursemaids Petyr while he is recovering from this mortal wound, and it is from this encounter that she gets pregnant.

So, are we to take away that she basically rapes an incapacitated Baelish while he's recovering from a massive gut wound and most likely strung out on milk of the poppy? (Think Tyrion while he's recovering from his injury of the Blackwater.)     If the pregnancy occurred from this last encounter, which it is assumed that it is, then Petyr soiling Lysa and getting her with child could not have been the reason that Hoster sent him away, because Hoster would have sent him away before anyone knew Lysa was pregnant.     IIRC, Littlefinger only stayed at RR for a fortnight or so following the duel....way too soon for anyone to be aware of a pregnancy.

In that case, the moon tea/tansy episode would have occurred quite some time after Petyr had returned to the Fingers - Lysa seems fairly convinced that the baby she miscarried was a boy, meaning she was at least several months along when it happened. This would be somewhere around the official start of the Rebellion, probably close to Brandon and Rickard's execution & Jon Arryn calling banners.    This makes sense to me, as Lysa is still traumatized by it at her wedding to Jon Arryn, meaning that it happened fairly recently.

So why DID Hoster send his longtime ward away?   Did he just bust them in flagrante delicto or was Baelish responsible for something more sinister?
 

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Petyr embarrassed his foster family by fighting that duel.  Hoster took in this scrawny nobody, treated him almost like he was an equal to proper nobility, and then he goes and presumes to act like he actually is? Shocking.  

The Starks could have taken offence at this grubby child butting into a business between Great Houses.  Petyr could have wounded the heir to the North.  A minor wound could go septic.

For Lysa then to go moping about weeping over him would be irritating.  When she finally brought out a reason to have him brought back, Hoster must have gone spare. Especially if he was already neck-deep in a nascent plot.

But I'm still thinking it was purely Stark bone-headedness that kicked off, and Petyr was way away from it.  And yes, Lysa mauled him when he was drugged and injured, poor sod.  If those were his first sexual experiences, it makes a hell of a lot of sense for his control issues and screwed up approach to sex and power.

Jaime was being groomed for Lysa, it's the 'sat beside at every meal' that's key, there.  Hoster was aiming for a Lannister groom, too. He would not want to be shamed by this wretched charity case.

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No evidence to support that he had anything to do with the rebellion but it was an inspiration to him later on.  Chaos brings instability and opportunities.  He saw dicks like Robert and Jon Arryn rise to power from chaos.  I think that was his inspiration.  If they rebelled against their king why surely he could too.  He found out the gods do not intervene and people without scruples can get ahead when there is chaos.

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On Invalid Date at 11:12 AM, Tom Cruise said:

Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence that Baelish may have fed Brandon false, or maybe less than truthful, information to Brandon after Lyannas 'abduction'?  The goal, obviously, being that it would cause Brandon to act rashly?  Would Baelish have been in any position to speak with Brandon around this time?  I can't remember specifically, but at this point would Baelish have been back at the Fingers?  If so I guess there's no opportunity for the two to have spoken together. 

I seriously doubt it , for one Petyr Baelish was in the Fingers recuperating from the duel ,and the other according to Ned , Brandon hated Petyr ,that duel left a bad taste in Brandon's mouth due to the fact either Petyr age and lack of skill tarnished Stark honor or he did not die like a man and had to be saved by Catelyn .

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On 5/21/2017 at 10:40 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

The way I see it, "the day" that came at last refers only to "the day she was wed", not a specific date that had been agreed upon for her wedding to Brandon.

Ok I will go look through all the quotes and see if I misremembered something. Certainly possible.

 

On 5/21/2017 at 0:55 PM, PrettyPig said:

I think some assumptions might be off about the whereabouts of the players at the time. 

Consider this:

Obviously this is a recollection of events prior to the Tourney of Harrenhal, but it's that bolded line that intrigues me - a lord using his squire as errand boy to deliver messages that are too risky for ravenmail.

Now consider this:

Brandon leaves Riverrun after the duel.  "Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return."       Then, en route back to Riverrun, Brandon "heard about Lyanna"...and goes hell bent for leather WITH HIS POSSE OF VALEMEN - Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister - toward King's Landing.

Brandon's post-duel mystery errand took him to the Vale. From Riverrun.     I suspect Brandon had long been acting as a messenger boy for Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn, and had been for some time - hence why Ned, holed up in the Vale, seemed to have gotten an earful from Brandon about Littlefinger.   If he had been traveling back and forth passing secret messages regarding a STAB alliance (that required extended stays at the respective houses as referenced in the Jaime quote above), Brandon would have intimate knowledge of the creepy little perv that wouldn't stop putting the moves on his betrothed...knowledge that he could share with Ned during his turns at the Eyrie.      

It also makes far more logistical sense to have Brandon be traveling from another location than Rickard, and explains why they weren't together as a giant wedding party when they "heard about Lyanna".    If Brandon was on the tail end of his mystery errand and was traveling West on the High Road, while Rickard with his larger and slower entourage was traveling South on the Kingsroad, they could easily meet up at the Inn of the Crossroads and complete the journey together...but that didn't happen, because IMO Brandon got the news before Rickard reached the IotC.

Anyway, my point with this is that Brandon's movements are indicative of a Stark/Tully/Arryn conspiracy going on in the shadows.      It's also possible, what with his convalescence in the care of Riverrun's master and his later travel back to the Fingers after being wounded/humiliated by one conspirator and exiled by another, that Littlefinger used his gift of trickery and deceit to get revenge.

Something else that this brings up, though, that remains a mystery to me:   Lysa's pregnancy.

The wedding is announced; Brandon and Petry duel.   The story is that Lysa nursemaids Petyr while he is recovering from this mortal wound, and it is from this encounter that she gets pregnant.

So, are we to take away that she basically rapes an incapacitated Baelish while he's recovering from a massive gut wound and most likely strung out on milk of the poppy? (Think Tyrion while he's recovering from his injury of the Blackwater.)     If the pregnancy occurred from this last encounter, which it is assumed that it is, then Petyr soiling Lysa and getting her with child could not have been the reason that Hoster sent him away, because Hoster would have sent him away before anyone knew Lysa was pregnant.     IIRC, Littlefinger only stayed at RR for a fortnight or so following the duel....way too soon for anyone to be aware of a pregnancy.

In that case, the moon tea/tansy episode would have occurred quite some time after Petyr had returned to the Fingers - Lysa seems fairly convinced that the baby she miscarried was a boy, meaning she was at least several months along when it happened. This would be somewhere around the official start of the Rebellion, probably close to Brandon and Rickard's execution & Jon Arryn calling banners.    This makes sense to me, as Lysa is still traumatized by it at her wedding to Jon Arryn, meaning that it happened fairly recently.

So why DID Hoster send his longtime ward away?   Did he just bust them in flagrante delicto or was Baelish responsible for something more sinister?
 

As a long time believer in Southron Ambitions I'd say yes they were plotting and Brandon was likely in on the whole thing. Also who is the Riverrun Maester at this time? Cat says Luwin helped her with all her births and Robb's was at Riverrun. Walys disappears during the events of Robert's Rebellion and we have no idea what happened to him.

Yes this would be the second time Lysa raped Petyr. First was the time he was blackout drunk from the night the Blackwoods and Brackens were in Riverrun. That was the second time when he is recovering from his near fatal wound.

I agree Lysa's confession about the pregency being the cause of the banishment doesn't quite fit the timeline. Hoster didn't want Petyr as Cat's failed suitor around for any longer than necessary I'd imagine. So he sends Petyr back to the Fingers and in time Lysa discovers she pregnant and tells Hoster. Or she could have gotten pregnant from the first encounter, hard to say since we don't know when it occured. Still if Hoster was under the impression that Petyr fought a duel for one daughter while knocked up his second I can see why he would send him home.

 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Yes this would be the second time Lysa raped Petyr. First was the time he was blackout drunk from the night the Blackwoods and Brackens were in Riverrun. That was the second time when he is recovering from his near fatal wound.

You are really living up to your reputation as 'the most sentimental poster in the forums...'

:rofl:

 

I think you're naive to presume anyone 'rapes' Baelish.  And his 'near-fatal' wound -- right; he was very close to death's door, I'm sure, so close he didn't realise his peter had been purloined.  The poor 'victim' of the cruel nobility, hapless Sweetpetyr.  :kiss:

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44 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You are really living up to your reputation as 'the most sentimental poster in the forums...'

:rofl:

I think you're naive to presume anyone 'rapes' Baelish.  And his 'near-fatal' wound -- right; he was very close to death's door, I'm sure, so close he didn't realise his peter had been purloined.  The poor 'victim' of the cruel nobility, hapless Sweetpetyr.  :kiss:

Yes I presume anyone can rape a half dead 14 year old boy. I am glad the notion of rape amuses you so. Also yes he is a victim of the nobility like the other 99% of people in Westeros.

In case you forgot.

Quote

raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

Cat thinks the wound was mortal. So as @PrettyPig mentioned above between being half dead and milk of the poppy I sure he was able to give consent or stop her. 

Yes I am sure that being almost killed was part of his sociopathic master plan...

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@Lord Wraith -- I didn't think I'd encounter anything worse than a Dany apologist, being the renowned-Dany-hater-it-is-known that I am.  But as it turns out, there is something worse...a Baelish apologist!!!

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

Yes I presume anyone can rape a half dead 14 year old boy. I am glad the notion of rape amuses you so. Also yes he is a victim of the nobility like the other 99% of people in Westeros.

You are certain that Baelish inebriated and all would be 'up to it...' ? (better get out the medical physiological textbooks before you reply...)  In any case, Shakespeare doesn't seem to think so:                            

Quote

 Macd.  What three things does drink especially provoke?

  Port.  Marry, sir, nose-painting, sleep and urine. Lechery, sir, it provokes, and unprovokes; it provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance; therefore, much drink may be said to be an equivocator with lechery: it makes him, and it mars him; it sets him on, and it takes him off; it persuades him, and disheartens him; makes him stand to, and not stand to; in conclusion, equivocates him in a sleep, and, giving him the lie, leaves him.

 Macbeth, Act 2, Scene3

I can think of something that amuses a psychopath like Baelish even more than the idea of rape supposedly 'amuses me':

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

"Do you always find murder so amusing, Lord Baelish?"

"It's not murder I find amusing, Lord Stark, it's you. You rule like a man dancing on rotten ice. I daresay you will make a noble splash. I believe I heard the first crack this morning."

"The first and last," said Ned. "I've had my fill."

 

Quote

In case you forgot.

Cat thinks the wound was mortal.

Yes, dear Catelyn in her implacable self-righteousness and tender selective sentimentality (which doesn't, however, include any tender feelings towards poor bastard child Jon) is convinced of a great many things.  For example:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

Tyrion felt the heat rise in him. "It was not my dagger," he insisted. "How many times must I swear to that? Lady Stark, whatever you may believe of me, I am not a stupid man. Only a fool would arm a common footpad with his own blade."

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?"

"Why does a bear shit in the woods?" he demanded. "Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people."

She took a step toward him, her face tight. "And what does that mean, Lannister?"

Tyrion cocked his head. "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."

 

Quote

So as @PrettyPig mentioned above between being half dead and milk of the poppy I sure he was able to give consent or stop her. 

Milk of the poppy?  Oh, Lord, thank goodness you are no opioid addict.  Let me enlighten you; opioids, including morphine = 'milk of the poppy' are notorious for causing erectile dysfunction and loss of libido.  This is due to the autonomic derangement associated with their use, not to mention their prominent hypnotic properties.

Quote

Yes I am sure that being almost killed was part of his sociopathic master plan...

Oh, poor baby.  Either he faked it (the severity of his injuries); or he used it to his advantage.  

It's fascinating how much you admire him! 

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I don't mean to be intrusive, but, after all, there are tried and true methods for inciting an erection in a living body.

I find Baelish to be one of the most interesting characters in the saga.I'd like to think that doesn't make me a despicable person.

 

His background is complex and central to the story.

Also, Braavos.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

there are tried and true methods for inciting an erection in a living body.

Please let us in on the secret.

3 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I find Baelish to be one of the most interesting characters in the saga.I'd like to think that doesn't make me a despicable person.

No.  Psychopaths are attractive.  So you falling for one of them is nothing unusual.

3 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

His background is complex and central to the story.

I agree.  No story without Baelish to drive it.

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A 15 year old in Westeros isn't a boy. Baelish was old enough to get drunk and make sexual advances on the Tully girls. He was also a Tully ward and had the same connections Catelyn and Lysa had. 

Brandon was 20 and was of course stronger than Baelish but also more skilled. After the duel Baelish was at Riverrun for 2 weeks recovering and sleeping with Lysa (whom he thought was Cat). He was sent away after 2 weeks which would have been sometime in 282. 

For comparison the tourney was 281 and Lyanna's disappearance 282. She disappeared 10 leagues (30 miles) from Harrenhal which could have put that chance encounter right in the path of Baelish leaving Riverrun. Considering how few roads there are, I think the encounter was extremely likely. 

Let's assume Baelish witnessed it, hiding. What would Baelish have gained by telling the truth? All he would have to do is start the rumor that she was abducted and Brandon would run right off to find her. Judging what we know about Baelish he is very knowledgeable about all the houses in Westeros as well as the movers and shakers within those houses.

Also a disappearance isn't immediately known. People disappear sometimes weeks before their missing persons report is filed.That's long enough for a rumor to be spread.  

 

Varys isn't on the radar for me. Too dissociated and would have been at KL the whole time anyway. 

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2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

His background is complex and central to the story.

Also, Braavos.

Indeed. I need to start a thread on "Baelish the missing years." Between the recovery of the duel and getting the job at Gulltown. I think he goes to Braavos but we have zero info one what he does during this time.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Indeed. I need to start a thread on "Baelish the missing years." Between the recovery of the duel and getting the job at Gulltown. I think he goes to Braavos but we have zero info one what he does during this time.

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. *chin in hands, hopeful expression*

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On 5/21/2017 at 3:21 AM, Lord Wraith said:

Lyanna was probably coming South for Brandon's wedding. Begs the question why she wasn't with Rickard.

 

On 5/21/2017 at 0:55 PM, PrettyPig said:

It also makes far more logistical sense to have Brandon be traveling from another location than Rickard, and explains why they weren't together as a giant wedding party when they "heard about Lyanna".    If Brandon was on the tail end of his mystery errand and was traveling West on the High Road, while Rickard with his larger and slower entourage was traveling South on the Kingsroad, they could easily meet up at the Inn of the Crossroads and complete the journey together...but that didn't happen, because IMO Brandon got the news before Rickard reached the IotC.
 

I think the assumption that Rickard was traveling south when Lyanna was abducted (or when Brandon heard about it) is incorrect.  Ned says:  "My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king.  He never came home again."  So Rickard did not leave Winterfell to go to Brandon's wedding.  He left Winterfell after Brandon was taken prisoner and he (Rickard) was summoned to answer for Brandon's supposed crime. 

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