bent branch Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 33 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said: It's clearly a lot deeper than that though. Well, if it wasn't revealed at the time it won't be now since Renly is dead. ETA: Unless you're making a joke that I'm not getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnFit Finlay Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 17 minutes ago, bent branch said: Well, if it wasn't revealed at the time it won't be now since Renly is dead. ETA: Unless you're making a joke that I'm not getting. I thought Renly's motivation was kind of obvious in retrospect. He loves the Tyrells and schemed with them to make Margaery Queen. When Robert was dying, he knew the Lannisters would have him killed so tried to get Ned to seize power through Joffrey. When Ned turned him down, he fled King's Landing and, lacking a better option, and with the support of the Tyrells, he crowned himself. At least that's how I read it anyway. I certainly don't think it's as simple as "he just wanted to be King" though I do think he enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 21 hours ago, bent branch said: Stannis did not want to burn his nephew, that is why his nephew is unburnt. People who don't understand that Stannis was looking for any reason to NOT burn his nephew DON'T understand Stannis. Doesn't matter whether he wanted to or not, or whether he would have been sad afterwards. He still intended to do it. Maybe that's a better word than "wanted" - he obviously didn't want to, but he was going to anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 6 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said: I thought Renly's motivation was kind of obvious in retrospect. He loves the Tyrells and schemed with them to make Margaery Queen. When Robert was dying, he knew the Lannisters would have him killed so tried to get Ned to seize power through Joffrey. When Ned turned him down, he fled King's Landing and, lacking a better option, and with the support of the Tyrells, he crowned himself. At least that's how I read it anyway. I certainly don't think it's as simple as "he just wanted to be King" though I do think he enjoyed it. I disagree. I think if Renly truly had no better option he would have made the deal with Catelyn for the North and Riverlands' independence. He didn't agree because what he really wanted was to be king. 5 hours ago, maudisdottir said: Doesn't matter whether he wanted to or not, or whether he would have been sad afterwards. He still intended to do it. Maybe that's a better word than "wanted" - he obviously didn't want to, but he was going to anyway. When you write this sentence: "Stannis wanted to burn Edric." It is the same as writing this sentence: "Stannis wished to burn Edric." Or this sentence: "Stannis desired to burn Edric." Melisandre had been nagging at Stannis since his defeat at the Blackwater to burn Edric to raise dragons from stone (or for about four months). If any of the above sentences had been true Edric would have been burned already, maybe even before Davos made it back. A more accurate sentence would be: "Stannis was afraid he would have to burn Edric." I don't think this last sentence is anything at all like the first three. The difference speaks to Stannis' motivation. Some people don't feel there is any difference. I think they are missing the point being made about Stannis' character. The point being made is that Stannis could be able to do horrific things if he can be convinced that they are necessary. I find the same people who think Stannis wanted/wished/desired to burn his nephew also think that Stannis is doing the things he is doing because he wants the Iron Throne. They miss the point in the story when Stannis becomes concerned with the War for the Dawn. And yes, Stannis is concerned with the War for the Dawn when he is contemplating burning Edric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnFit Finlay Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 7 hours ago, bent branch said: I disagree. I think if Renly truly had no better option he would have made the deal with Catelyn for the North and Riverlands' independence. He didn't agree because what he really wanted was to be king. Like I said. I'm sure he enjoyed being King. I just don't think that that's the reason he crowned himself. If all he wanted was to be King, why would he have tried to convince Ned to rule through Joffrey? He knew his days were numbered with the Lannisters in power so, at that point, his only options were (a) Stannis (b) Crown himself. Renly didn't believe anybody would follow Stannis, even if he wanted the Throne which, given that Renly didn't know about the Twincest, was questionable. Thinking about it I'd argue that recognising Robb wasn't an option either. Renly had the largest army in the realm but his claim to the Throne was invented. Would his men continue to follow him if he gave up half the realm to someone with far less military capability? Or would they see it as a cowardice and start to wonder if they should go back to the "rightful King", whether that be Joffrey or Stannis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 3/29/2017 at 1:23 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said: I doubt very much that GRRM seperates along gender lines when deciding something like this. There is a reason Daenerys is a PoV and the other kings are not. On 3/29/2017 at 2:26 AM, Brandon Baratheon said: She is queen of Westeros. She has better claim than Renly Baratheon. While I would normally agree that gender doesn't matter in this, GRRM is damned careful with his wording. He specifically said no PsOV of kings. He didn't say monarchs, or rulers, or any of the gender-neutral terms he could have used. This is potentially in line with how "most like" Dany was named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, and Jon by Ned. BB, actually she doesn't have a better claim than Renly who was at least in line for the throne when he tried to jump ahead. With her family deposed she has to either take the throne back, or claim a new conquest. The dragons definitely help though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 3/28/2017 at 8:02 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said: We seem to be in the minority, but I agree with you. I would have liked to know more about what he was thinking about in both the first and second book. I think Davos basically covers Stannis well, and Robert would have added nothing to the book, but Renly could have been interesting. It would have been chapters with him making fun of people who are consider abnormal by Westeros's society standards (Stannis, Patchface, his Renly's niece). I could see a Robert's POV be like Westeros version of Animal House(we might of seem how he would act as an uncle(better than Renly). Stannis' POV would have him talking about justice and how he was slighted by Robert. .Shireen's POV would be the only chapters in the books that is PG( like Gremlin, it would have horror element). Patchface would be that very element(his songs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 3/23/2017 at 1:20 PM, Brandon Baratheon said: But Joeffrey Baratheon chapter could be very interesting. A mind is a scary thing to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 On 4/1/2017 at 3:41 AM, Batbob45 said: It would have been chapters with him making fun of people who are consider abnormal by Westeros's society standards (Stannis, Patchface, his Renly's niece). I could see a Robert's POV be like Westeros version of Animal House(we might of seem how he would act as an uncle(better than Renly). Stannis' POV would have him talking about justice and how he was slighted by Robert. .Shireen's POV would be the only chapters in the books that is PG( like Gremlin, it would have horror element). Patchface would be that very element(his songs). You think Robert would have been a better Uncle than Renly? I am confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 On 4/3/2017 at 1:08 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said: You think Robert would have been a better Uncle than Renly? I am confused. Yeah, Robert was a better uncle than Renly. Robert just ignored his niece, Renly actively mocked and plotted to kill his nieces and nephews. Ignoring is better than planning to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 3 hours ago, bent branch said: Yeah, Robert was a better uncle than Renly. Robert just ignored his niece, Renly actively mocked and plotted to kill his nieces and nephews. Ignoring is better than planning to kill. Not to mention that Varys always remembers your birthday for Uncle Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 7 hours ago, bent branch said: Yeah, Robert was a better uncle than Renly. Robert just ignored his niece, Renly actively mocked and plotted to kill his nieces and nephews. Ignoring is better than planning to kill. Who did he plan to kill? I really don't remember this. And didn't he take care of Edric Storm, his nephew. AND Stannis planned to kill his nephew.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 52 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Who did he plan to kill? I really don't remember this. And didn't he take care of Edric Storm, his nephew. AND Stannis planned to kill his nephew.... Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. He might have let Shireen live, but the other three had to die. There was no way the Lannisters would back down as long as anyone of those children lived. Remember, Renly didn't know Cersei's children weren't Robert's. Yep, Renly would have had to kill off every blood relative he had to be king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Then why was Renly trying to set up Robert with Margaret Tyrell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Then why was Renly trying to set up Robert with Margaret Tyrell? I'm not sure if this question was aimed at me or not, but Renly's plot to marry Margaery to Robert was completely separate from his plan to take the throne. Once Renly decided to take the throne it became necessary for him to kill everyone ahead of him in line for the throne who had any political backing. The only blood relative ahead of Renly that would've had no backing was Shireen. Everyone else had to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 12 hours ago, bent branch said: Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. He might have let Shireen live, but the other three had to die. There was no way the Lannisters would back down as long as anyone of those children lived. Remember, Renly didn't know Cersei's children weren't Robert's. Yep, Renly would have had to kill off every blood relative he had to be king. Not necessarily. Joffrey would probably have had to go, but he could have probably kept Tommen and Myrcella as prisoners/hostages. As for the Lannisters, Tywin was already in the field when Renly started his rebellion, so I expect that Renly was already taking him into account and would have anticipated his defeat as being necessary in any case. Essentialy, the defeat of Tywin and Stannis was always going to be necessary, and with them gone, the younger Baratheon children are no real threat and can probably be married off to allies' family members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 32 minutes ago, bent branch said: I'm not sure if this question was aimed at me or not, but Renly's plot to marry Margaery to Robert was completely separate from his plan to take the throne. Once Renly decided to take the throne it became necessary for him to kill everyone ahead of him in line for the throne who had any political backing. The only blood relative ahead of Renly that would've had no backing was Shireen. Everyone else had to go. So what would he do with Shireen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Nevets said: Not necessarily. Joffrey would probably have had to go, but he could have probably kept Tommen and Myrcella as prisoners/hostages. As for the Lannisters, Tywin was already in the field when Renly started his rebellion, so I expect that Renly was already taking him into account and would have anticipated his defeat as being necessary in any case. Essentialy, the defeat of Tywin and Stannis was always going to be necessary, and with them gone, the younger Baratheon children are no real threat and can probably be married off to allies' family members. Nonsense. There is no way Renly could allow Myrcella and Tommen to live. The Lannisters are a large, wealthy, well-connected political family. The Baratheon side of the family (minus Cersei's children) consisted of Stannis, Renly, and Shireen. While Renly might be able to defeat both Stannis and Tywin in the battlefield, that wouldn't be enough. All the Lannisters would need to do is have Renly assassinated before he has an heir *cough* Pycelle *cough* and the Baratheons are done while the Lannisters are back. Renly supporters like to imagine some glorious victory for Renly while denying that he would have to murder Myrcella and Tommen to secure that victory. I can't make people admit an ugly truth, but I can call them out on it. 2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: So what would he do with Shireen. He really wouldn't have to do anything with Shireen. He could be completely lenient with her and have no problems. While the Florents are also connected to a large family network, but they are vassals to the Tyrells, who have provided the queen. I would have to go through family trees to figure out exactly how Shireen is related to the Tyrells, but there is no doubt she is. Shireen's claim would be buried under an avalanche of family ties. Of course, her claim to the throne is stronger than Renly's, but there is nothing the Florents can do about it except grouse. Just like they have since the Tyrells were made Lord Paramount of the Reach over their greater claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 It's just the author needing to manage the story. Too many povs and you have to reduce depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 20 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Who did he plan to kill? I really don't remember this. And didn't he take care of Edric Storm, his nephew. AND Stannis planned to kill his nephew.... No, Mel planned to kill Edric. Stannis kept saying no. Davos was afraid that Mel would wear Stannis down, so he shipped the kid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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