valonqar twist

[DrDress]

Hi all

 

I'm totally nes here, but I think it's about time I put on my tinfoil. This might be an old idea, but here goes: It's about the valonqar part of Cersei prophecy. All I've heard is the debate whether Jamie or Tyrion will be the one, since they are both Cersei's younger brother, the former by a few minutes. Thus the twist from GRRM would be that we discount Jamie.

But the prophecy doesn't say "your valonqar" but "the valonqar", which technicaly could be any younger sibling, right? Like Denarys, Jon, Bran, well a big part of Westeros population.

As I said this might be old, but I've never heard anyone address it. Any thoughts

[ravenous reader]

45 minutes ago, DrDress said:

Hi all

 

I'm totally nes here, but I think it's about time I put on my tinfoil. This might be an old idea, but here goes: It's about the valonqar part of Cersei prophecy. All I've heard is the debate whether Jamie or Tyrion will be the one, since they are both Cersei's younger brother, the former by a few minutes. Thus the twist from GRRM would be that we discount Jamie.

But the prophecy doesn't say "your valonqar" but "the valonqar", which technicaly could be any younger sibling, right? Like Denarys, Jon, Bran, well a big part of Westeros population.

As I said this might be old, but I've never heard anyone address it. Any thoughts

Hi and welcome to the forum!  

More important than the qualifiers, 'your' or 'the,' is the choice in High Valyrian of the word 'valonqar' which means 'little brother.'  Other than Maggy merely being mysterious and pretentious, that would seem to indicate the younger and/or smaller brother in question has to have some kind of significant Valyrian / Targaryen connection.  

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi and welcome to the forum!  

More important than the qualifiers, 'your' or 'the,' is the choice in High Valyrian of the word 'valonqar' which means 'little brother.'  Other than Maggy merely being mysterious and pretentious, that would seem to indicate the younger and/or smaller brother in question has to have some kind of significant Valyrian / Targaryen connection.  

I think the OP is assuming that valonqar could be the same as dragon in Valyrian; gender neutral.

IF that is true, I hope it's Arya or Tommen.

As it stands I like Tyrion, through the sewers at Casterly Rock, with his bare hands though.

[White Ravens]

There is a pretty good summary of Valonqar theories over on the wiki of ice and fire.

 

I don't think GRRM realized when he wrote about Maggy's prophecy back in 2005 that there would as many years of waiting for his fans or that they would have resources like A Search of Ice and Fire at their fingertips to chase down any and all tinfoil theories that occur to them.  Personally I would be content for the twist to be Jaime when we are expecting Tyrion, but of course the twist could be far more unexpected than that.  If it is Jaime I hope he strangles her with this golden hand.

 

[cgrav]

"Shall wrap his hands.."

I suspect Shea's death was the first iteration of this prophecy, though I do expect it to be Jaime who does in Cersei. It was mentioned early in the books that Jaime was expected to be elevated to Hand, but was stymied when Ned unexpectedly accepted the job. His ascendent arc make Handship a definite possibility in the coming books. Given the hand-based irony in Jaime's story so far, I'd say that sequence of events is most likely.

[Joey Crows]

5 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

There is a pretty good summary of Valonqar theories over on the wiki of ice and fire.

 

I don't think GRRM realized when he wrote about Maggy's prophecy back in 2005 that there would as many years of waiting for his fans or that they would have resources like A Search of Ice and Fire at their fingertips to chase down any and all tinfoil theories that occur to them.  Personally I would be content for the twist to be Jaime when we are expecting Tyrion, but of course the twist could be far more unexpected than that.  If it is Jaime I hope he strangles her with this golden hand.

 

Agreed. I think he probably wrote that prophecy with Jamie in mind as the twist no one would think of. But of course decades go by and everyone has since thought of everything. I would totally be happy with Jaime as the valonqar considering his character development and growing understanding of what Cersei really is.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

I think the OP is assuming that valonqar could be the same as dragon in Valyrian; gender neutral.

IF that is true, I hope it's Arya or Tommen.

As it stands I like Tyrion, through the sewers at Casterly Rock, with his bare hands though.

Arya could very well qualify.

As one of the 'Faceless Men,' she already embodies gender ambiguity or neutrality, since she is a female faceless man!

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

The old woman's corpse was cool by now, the bravo's body stiffening. The girl was used to that. Most days, she spent more time with the dead than with the living. She missed the friends she'd had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum. She missed Cat herself the most of all, even more than she missed her eyes. She had liked being Cat, more than she had ever liked being Salty or Squab or Weasel or Arry. I killed Cat when I killed that singer.

Arya has a long history of impersonating and/or being mistaken for the opposite sex.  Just like a dragon -- neither one nor the other, but both, changeable.  

In fact, 'no one' is the Stranger archetype, and the Stranger is faceless, with no fixed sex:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise.

And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.

Foreshadowing for Arya's transformation into a 'faceless man' (Stranger almost 'bites her face off'; note 'Stranger' is a gelding, i.e.a castratee, neither male nor female):

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya IX

Stranger, the Hound called him. Arya had tried to steal him once, when Clegane was taking a piss against a tree, thinking she could ride off before he could catch her. Stranger had almost bitten her face off. He was gentle as an old gelding with his master, but otherwise he had a temper as black as he was. She had never known a horse so quick to bite or kick.

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

Worshipers came to the House of Black and White every day. Most came alone and sat alone; they lit candles at one altar or another, prayed beside the pool, and sometimes wept. A few drank from the black cup and went to sleep; more did not drink. There were no services, no songs, no paeans of praise to please the god. The temple was never full. From time to time, a worshiper would ask to see a priest, and the kindly man or the waif would take him down into the sanctum, but that did not happen often.

Thirty different gods stood along the walls, surrounded by their little lights. The Weeping Woman was the favorite of old women, Arya saw; rich men preferred the Lion of Night, poor men the Hooded Wayfarer. Soldiers lit candles to Bakkalon, the Pale Child, sailors to the Moon-Pale Maiden and the Merling King. The Stranger had his shrine as well, though hardly anyone ever came to him. Most of the time only a single candle stood flickering at his feet. The kindly man said it did not matter. "He has many faces, and many ears to hear."

So the many-faced god of the Faceless Men is the Stranger!

Also, way back Syrio instructed her she's neither boy nor girl -- just a sword.  That would be fitting for the valonqar, who is an instrument of vengeance:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

It was the third time he had called her "boy." "I'm a girl," Arya objected.

"Boy, girl," Syrio Forel said. "You are a sword, that is all." He clicked his teeth together. "Just so, that is the grip. You are not holding a battle-axe, you are holding a—"

"—needle," Arya finished for him, fiercely.

 

Quote

The kindly man had told her that they would have taken her eyes from her anyway, to help her to learn to use her other senses, but not for half a year. Blind acolytes were common in the House of Black and White, but few as young as she. The girl was not sorry, though. Dareon had been a deserter from the Night's Watch; he had deserved to die.

Arya is the youngest acolyte in the House of Black and White.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

The priests used the language of Braavos, though once for several minutes three spoke heatedly in High Valyrian. The girl understood the words, mostly, but they spoke in soft voices, and she could not always hear. "I know this man," she did hear a priest with the face of a plague victim say. "I know this man," the fat fellow echoed, as she was pouring for him. But the handsome man said, "I will give this man the gift, I know him not." Later the squinter said the same thing, of someone else.

The Faceless Men speak High Valyrian.  Their sorcerous catchphrase which opens the front door to their establishment is High Valyrian -- 'Valar morghulis'.  It means 'all men must die'; hence vengeance comes in the form of High Valyrian, just like the 'valonqar'.

Quote

After three hours of wine and words, the priests took their leave … all but the kindly man, the waif, and the one whose face bore the marks of plague. His cheeks were covered with weeping sores, and his hair had fallen out. Blood dripped from one nostril and crusted at the corners of both eyes. "Our brother would have words with you, child," the kindly man told her. "Sit, if you wish." She seated herself in a weirwood chair with a face of ebony. Bloody sores held no terror for her. She had been too long in the House of Black and White to be afraid of a false face.

"Who are you?" plague face asked when they were alone.

The Faceless men refer to each other, as one often does in a holy order, as 'brothers'.

So, putting it all together:

Arya is the younger/youngest brother of the Faceless Men order, which has its roots in Valyria -- she could very well be the valonqar.

8 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Jaime was expected to be elevated to Hand, but was stymied when Ned unexpectedly accepted the job. His ascendent arc make Handship a definite possibility in the coming books. Given the hand-based irony in Jaime's story so far, I'd say that sequence of events is most likely.

What's Jaime's Valyrian/Targaryen connection then?  Did you read my previous post in which I argued the term 'valonqar' itself is a significant indicator of the identity of Cersei's nemesis.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

34 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Foreshadowing for Arya's transformation into a 'faceless man' (Stranger almost 'bites her face off'; note 'Stranger' is a gelding, i.e.a castratee, neither male nor female)

Excellent breakdown! I like all of the reasonings, but I think the Stranger/gelding thing is simile for how he behaves around Sandor. I don't think Stranger is actually gelded. This doesn't take anything away from your main points though.

Think Arya would use "The Strangler"? The waif could have taught her about it, and the parallel with joff would be nice.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

It was supposed to be Jaime, but I truly think that George lurks this forum and he changed the plot twist. So it could be anyone who is the youger brother/sister of a given family. And @ravenous reader nice breakdown thumbs up for you my dude.

[Philokles]

A non self-fulling prophecy would be weak writing, rendering the paranoia so thoroughly explored in AFFC pointless. Why is it even included if the valonqar would have killed Cersei anyway? If GRRM does it well, as I trust he will, then her demise will come about predominantly as a result of the actions taken to avoid it.

Jaime is the best choice on these grounds - turning ever further against her rule as she descends into tyranny driven by fear of Tyrion. Whilst you could argue for Tyrion too on this basis, it lacks the standard extra ironic twists of Cersei's realisation that she had misinterpreted Maggy's words all along, that Jaime is not the younger sibling in a way one would usually expect and the betrayal coming from someone so close to her.

The only other character having close to the same dramatic impact would be Margaery, for Cersei's hostility to her arose at least partly from another part of the prophecy. But that lacks the same poignancy as she was never a close confidante of Cersei's and was identified early on as a potential threat, as well as not having to rely on a rather shaky interpretation of whose younger sibling it is.

Even if it might be obvious to people on here - though those on a forum to discuss the books are far from the average reader - something so perfectly measured falling into place is much better than a messy compromise relying on shock value for satisfaction alone. Jaime being the valonqar would hold up infinitely better on a re-read. I think that is demonstrated by the numerous visitings of the Oedipus myth by tragedians (which happens to share a good deal of similarities in setting - i.e. an incestuous, collapsing royal family ridden by infighting).

[cgrav]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

What's Jaime's Valyrian/Targaryen connection then?  Did you read my previous post in which I argued the term 'valonqar' itself is a significant indicator of the identity of Cersei's nemesis.

My comment doesn't address that point, only the plot stuff. I do like the idea, but I'm hesitant to use it as a premise because such language can be explained by her origin in the East. And GRRM's purpose in choosing a Valyrian word can be explained as a means of hiding the its definition. 20 years on of course there's no mystery, as much as we might keep looking for one.

But double (triple, quadruple...) entendre is to be expected, so my curiosity is definitely piqued. And then there's the symbolic aspect, which could also favor Tyrion or even the cometary Arya. I'll have to dig in and do some more quote searching to reach a conclusion.

edit: now I'm thinking about the astronomical symbols... the golden necklace of hands would be an excellent symbol for the ring of an eclipse, choking the moon, and Tyrion definitely did that once already. The Hand and solar-archetype theme seem to apply to both Jaime and Tyrion, though with Tyrion getting the nod in that regard due to his very likely Targ parentage. And "dark sun" is the state of AA after killing the moon, which would be at odds with Jaime's arc that has thus far moved him away from that role.

I think which valonqar does the deed can be predicted by how much Tyrion and Jaime's plots are meant to mirror, complement, or contrast the other. It would be entirely within expectations if Jaime's events are meant to foreshadow Tyrion and vice versa. Plot twins, in a way.

[ravenous reader]

11 minutes ago, cgrav said:

My comment doesn't address that point, only the plot stuff. I do like the idea, but I'm hesitant to use it as a premise because such language can be explained by her origin in the East. And GRRM's purpose in choosing a Valyrian word can be explained as a means of hiding the its definition. 20 years on of course there's no mystery, as much as we might keep looking for one.

But double (triple, quadruple...) entendre is to be expected, so my curiosity is definitely piqued. And then there's the symbolic aspect, which could also favor Tyrion or even the cometary Arya. I'll have to dig in and do some more quote searching to reach a conclusion.

ha ha.  cgrav...you are as adept as a high-wire acrobat...You neatly eluded my attempt into tricking you into admitting that Jaime is a Targaryen! 

[cgrav]

Just now, ravenous reader said:

ha ha.  cgrav...you are as adept as a high-wire acrobat...You neatly eluded my attempt into tricking you into admitting that Jaime is a Targaryen! 

Well I try to keep my conclusions a little bit inconclusive. I'm better at reading GRRM's books than his mind!

But I've actually considered that and find the theory attractive, but I haven't occasioned to pursue  evidence or analysis. I was posting something the other day with not-so-subtle push for Tywin having fertility difficulties. Why else would he wait so long to have a second son? It's out of character for a man so preoccupied with Legacy and Pride to leave the House Lannister's legacy to chance and pride to Tyrion. In fact he could have easily - unless he's infertile - just remarried and got another heir the moment Jaime was appointed to the KG. 

But you digress.

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, cgrav said:

But you digress.

LOL.  Yes, I do!  (Commiserate with LmL, should you have complaints...).

You know this is all because GRRM struggled with his relationship with his father.  He didn't want to be related to him-- yet he is.  Hence the ambiguity with which we are saddled.  

[John Suburbs]

I'm in camp Tommen. After all she's done to protect him, Tommen rises from the dead and chokes the life out of her, the way wights tend to do it.

[cgrav]

 

17 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You know this is all because GRRM struggled with his relationship with his father.  He didn't want to be related to him-- yet he is.  Hence the ambiguity with which we are saddled.  

Every corn king must shed his husk.

[LynnS]

I do think there is a twist involved and I'm keeping my eye on Marywn the Mage.  The maesters at the Citadel are a brotherhood and he is described by Sam as short and squat with the biggest hands Sam has ever seen.  The Valonqar could be the term someone who speaks old valyrian used when addressing someone like Marwyn. I think he met Mirri Maaz Duur in Asshai on his mapping voyages, so that title could have been conferred on him then.