US Politics: Kill (the) Bill

[Toth]

10 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

There was no vote tho, so that really can't be done, but I see your point.

I know... but there must be some people on Bannon's death list in need of a pat on their backs.

[LongRider]

Just now, Toth said:

I know... but there must be some people on Bannon's death list in need of a pat on their backs.

Well, I'd rather wait until they really vote in way that actually supports sane and humane laws, then give them credit for possibly doing something when the chance to do it didn't happen.  Plus, who says Bannon's shit list scares any of those folks?  It might very well work against him and be a bit of a badge of honor for some. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

 However, my point was in terms of corporate influence on the political system, there have been far greater intrusions throughout our history and we have yet to devolve into an oligopoly.

 I would argue that we are in fact at this point more of a corporatist oligopoly than we are anything else. Sure, there's some room for Special Interest that is not necessarily corporate, but that Special Interest better have a fuckton of money behind it if it wants a place at the table. If Money = Speech (and the SCOTUS says it is) then the vast majority of this country has little or no voice. Outside of Civil Disobedience, the average American doesn't have much in the way of recourse. Big Money drives our legislation and our governance at this point. I think it's fairly delusional to deny this.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I would argue that we are in fact at this point more of a corporatist oligopoly than we are anything else. Sure, there's some room for Special Interest that is not necessarily corporate, but that Special Interest better have a fuckton of money behind it if it wants a place at the table. If Money = Speech (and the SCOTUS says it is) then the vast majority of this country has little or no voice. Outside of Civil Disobedience, the average American doesn't have much in the way of recourse. Big Money drives our legislation and our governance at this point. I think it's fairly delusional to deny this.

I would argue we have been far closer to a corporatist oligopoly previously in our history - most prominently at the turn of the 20th century.  The influence of a very few very rich families (e.g. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt) makes your Koch brothers look like beggars.  In terms of SCOTUS, look up the Lochner era and their attitude on corporate regulations, which was only ended due to FDR's court-packing plan.  Not incidentally, this era had levels of polarization that rival and at times even supersede the current period.  The silver lining, of course, is the democratizing amendments that the progressive movement pushed through in response.

[denstorebog]

Poe quits Freedom Caucus in aftermath of failed ObamaCare overhaul

This kinda bugs me. I loathe the Freedom Caucus, but under this particular president, I welcome anyone and anything that can put some roadblocks in the way of the White House. If the Freedom Caucus starts splintering right after the first clash with Trump (and hours after Trump tweets about them), it's possible that no one wants to be the problem when tax reform comes along.

If Trump doesn't take too much of the blame for the AHCA failing, and manages to visibly cow the people who dared obstruct the bill, he might suddenly have a much easier time getting the House to fall in line in the future.

[Fez]

3 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

There was no vote tho, so that really can't be done, but I see your point.

It was voted on in the appropriate House committees at least. The DCCC is already targeting all those Republicans since the AHCA is actually on their voting records. Not sure what the fuck Fasso in particular was thinking, but he's gonna lose his seat in 2018.

I think there was 3 committee Republicans that voted against the bill. All HFC guys though.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

I would argue we have been far closer to a corporatist oligopoly previously in our history - most prominently at the turn of the 20th century.  The influence of a very few very rich families (e.g. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt) makes your Koch brothers look like beggars.  In terms of SCOTUS, look up the Lochner era and their attitude on corporate regulations, which was only ended due to FDR's court-packing plan.  Not incidentally, this era had levels of polarization that rival and at times even supersede the current period.  The silver lining, of course, is the democratizing amendments that the progressive movement pushed through in response.

Maybe so.  But it's still strange to argue that Trumpcare, enjoying less than 20% popular support, is somehow the will of the people, or even representative democracy in action just because elected representatives are involved with it.

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

I would argue we have been far closer to a corporatist oligopoly previously in our history - most prominently at the turn of the 20th century.  The influence of a very few very rich families (e.g. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt) makes your Koch brothers look like beggars.  In terms of SCOTUS, look up the Lochner era and their attitude on corporate regulations, which was only ended due to FDR's court-packing plan.  Not incidentally, this era had levels of polarization that rival and at times even supersede the current period.  The silver lining, of course, is the democratizing amendments that the progressive movement pushed through in response.

Sherman, Clayton, FTC etc. all played roles, no doubt. But the biggest response was the rise of unions, which has already been accounted for by current corporate powers AND been demonized in that whole US socialism thing.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

I would argue we have been far closer to a corporatist oligopoly previously in our history - most prominently at the turn of the 20th century.  The influence of a very few very rich families (e.g. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt) makes your Koch brothers look like beggars.  In terms of SCOTUS, look up the Lochner era and their attitude on corporate regulations, which was only ended due to FDR's court-packing plan.  Not incidentally, this era had levels of polarization that rival and at times even supersede the current period.  The silver lining, of course, is the democratizing amendments that the progressive movement pushed through in response.

 

1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

Maybe so.  But it's still strange to argue that Trumpcare, enjoying less than 20% popular support, is somehow the will of the people, or even representative democracy in action just because elected representatives are involved with it.

And apparently, for reasons only only fathomable to the self-deluded, the election of Trump was a popular uprising against the corporatising of govt. Fool me once..oh wait I wasn't the one being fooled. Unfortunately those who were not fooled are still going to suffer the consequences of those fools who did vote for what you've got convinced that they would be getting something different.

[The Anti-Targ]

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Sherman, Clayton, FTC etc. all played roles, no doubt. But the biggest response was the rise of unions, which has already been accounted for by current corporate powers AND been demonized in that whole US socialism thing.

Freedom of assembly still means unions can play a role, but the problem is a much larger number of people have to be willing to sacrifice a lot more personally in order for unions to have the social and economic effects that they did in the past. And it seems like not enough people are willing to make those sacrifices...yet.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Fez said:

I think there was 3 committee Republicans that voted against the bill. All HFC guys though.

I would interpret the HFC no votes as 'not fucking cruel conservative enough' which won't get any 'attaboy's' from me.

[all swedes are racist]

2 hours ago, denstorebog said:

Poe quits Freedom Caucus in aftermath of failed ObamaCare overhaul

This kinda bugs me. I loathe the Freedom Caucus, but under this particular president, I welcome anyone and anything that can put some roadblocks in the way of the White House. If the Freedom Caucus starts splintering right after the first clash with Trump (and hours after Trump tweets about them), it's possible that no one wants to be the problem when tax reform comes along.

If Trump doesn't take too much of the blame for the AHCA failing, and manages to visibly cow the people who dared obstruct the bill, he might suddenly have a much easier time getting the House to fall in line in the future.

i dunno, i wouldn't assume the freedom caucus to be solidly oppositional anyway (especially when it comes to tax reform)

[OldGimletEye]

So, did Trump actually spend the weekend working (on what, no idea. It certainly wasn't healthcare) or did he spend it playing golf?

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

So, did Trump actually spend the weekend working (on what, no idea. It certainly wasn't healthcare) or did he spend it playing golf?

He apparently arrived at the white house at about 5:45 PM after a round of golf earlier that day, and played all day Saturday. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Sherman, Clayton, FTC etc. all played roles, no doubt. But the biggest response was the rise of unions, which has already been accounted for by current corporate powers AND been demonized in that whole US socialism thing.

Not just demonized, but denuded, especially in states like Wisconsin and Kansas. If you're looking for the Unions to save you at this point, I hope you can hold your breath for a long time. Even in my state (California) we've seen the corporatization of some of the larger unions. The Union I work for (SEIU) has become so monolithic that to call it a Worker's Rights Organization at this point is a bit of a joke. They are in bed with the corporations that they are supposed to be policing, and often hand down edicts to their members that come from those corporations. It's almost like I have two bosses at this point. It's a bit of a good cop/bad cop scenario.  

[Kalbear]

And as far as it goes, I agree largely with @denstorebog's take of what just happened with the AHCA. Admittedly, one of the checks that caused this mess is the reconciliation requirement combined with universal democratic loathing of the bill - both of those things forced the bill to be 100% Republican votes, and that in turn caused it to fail.

But at the same time it was on a policy Republicans have never really cared about and never wanted to deal with beyond opposition and/or raiding it for tax cuts. It's not surprising that a party that has never had a singular vision of what they want healthcare to look like would fail. It is heartening to know that Trump is fairly incompetent, but it should also be terrifying to see how having simply a slightly more competent POTUS and slightly more in-line congress could mean the end of functional Democracy in the US. It isn't the system, and it isn't the opposition. Democrats didn't do a whole lot here to kill it. It was just them doing something they don't care that much about.

Tax reform may die for other reasons, namely that they have much less runway to work with thanks to the AHCA dying and corporations are very much against many things in it, but it'll be a lot more popular.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

He apparently arrived at the white house at about 5:45 PM after a round of golf earlier that day, and played all day Saturday. 

Yep check the comment section he was at a golf course in Virginia FAKE NEWS

[James Arryn]

30 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Not just demonized, but denuded, especially in states like Wisconsin and Kansas. If you're looking for the Unions to save you at this point, I hope you can hold your breath for a long time. Even in my state (California) we've seen the corporatization of some of the larger unions. The Union I work for (SEIU) has become so monolithic that to call it a Worker's Rights Organization at this point is a bit of a joke. They are in bed with the corporations that they are supposed to be policing, and often hand down edicts to their members that come from those corporations. It's almost like I have two bosses at this point. It's a bit of a good cop/bad cop scenario.  

Excellent but depressing point.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Maybe so.  But it's still strange to argue that Trumpcare, enjoying less than 20% popular support, is somehow the will of the people, or even representative democracy in action just because elected representatives are involved with it.

Clearly, the 17% support of the AHCA is a large part of why it failed.  I was referring to the ideal of responsible party government, which has been proposed as a normatively desirable framework for increased republican representation since the 1950s.  In fact, is was APSA who introduced the theory into the mainstream - which eventually precipitated the 1970s House reforms that ultimately had an adverse effect on the "democratization" of Congress.  

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Sherman, Clayton, FTC etc. all played roles, no doubt. But the biggest response was the rise of unions, which has already been accounted for by current corporate powers AND been demonized in that whole US socialism thing.

The institutionalization of unions was decidedly after the progressive era, although certainly that wouldn't have been possible without it.  The antitrust acts you referred to, the progressive amendments (16-19), the Pendleton Civil Service Reform, and even the 1921 Budget and Accounting Act which gave us the precursor to the OMB and an independent accounting of the federal budget.  All of these happened well before unions had any influence on the political system.  Has the GOP deluded the influence of unions since?  Sure.  But it's just as much been a side effect of globalization, which is what Trump capitalized off of.  

41 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It is heartening to know that Trump is fairly incompetent, but it should also be terrifying to see how having simply a slightly more competent POTUS and slightly more in-line congress could mean the end of functional Democracy in the US.

Please explain how the rollback of Obamacare, coupled with tax cuts for the rich and taking a chainsaw to Medicare, constitutes the "end of functional democracy?"  Would I have been avidly against it and thought it was a huge blow for progressivism, as well as the social safety net in general?  Of course and fuck yes.  But you guys seem to equate your side losing with "the end of democracy."  I said right when Trump was elected he was going to have a very hard time getting much done due to the intransigent factions within the GOP and his own incompetence.  Now that's coming to fruition, and the sky is still falling.  It's becoming very difficult to take seriously.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

i dunno, i wouldn't assume the freedom caucus to be solidly oppositional anyway (especially when it comes to tax reform)

I would think the HFC would vote for any tax reform that means cutting taxes for the upper 25% of the wealth bracket. Do they really care about deficits? Their answer to deficits is cut spending. But the priority is cutting taxes. The problem is, the HFC isn't big enough to put through a tax reform package that will increase deficits, because that would get killed in the senate, and possibly in the House.