GloubieBoulga Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Ser Arthur Dayne is just as complicated a character as Jaime: To add an argument about this suggestion, there is a quote from Eddard, who refuses to answer clearly to Bran about the best knight, "best of all". Eddard lies only if he is forced (for love of his siblings, in fact, like Lyanna, Jon or Sansa), so here, he admitted without saying it clearly that the kingsguards aren't totally white if you consider their morality. They are humans like others. That can be an allusion to the fact that Arthur Dayne didn't protect king Aerys, nor helped Rhaegar at the Trident, nor Rhaella Viserys and Daenerys, nor the Tyrell at Storm's End. That can also be an allusion to another thing that we don't know yet (and an incest with Ashara isn't impossible). Quote "Was there one who was best of all?" " The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. (Bran III, ACOK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 5 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said: fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. The clue to his humanity and imperfection is in the nature of the so-called 'perfect blade' forged from the heart (possible foul play) of a fallen star. He's a fallen knight wielding a fallen blade. P.S. Gloubie -- looking forward to your developing exposition on the 'fallen Star-k' ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 3 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said: To add an argument about this suggestion, there is a quote from Eddard, who refuses to answer clearly to Bran about the best knight, "best of all". Eddard lies only if he is forced (for love of his siblings, in fact, like Lyanna, Jon or Sansa), so here, he admitted without saying it clearly that the kingsguards aren't totally white if you consider their morality. They are humans like others. I have been saying this for awhile. Jaime remembers the knights of the kingsguard as these super heroes because he was so young and didn't see their faults, and Barristan is an old man romanticizing his past which is why he remembers them fondly as a great generation of white cloaks. Truthfully, Arthur Dayne, while a fine fighter, may have been no finer a man than Meryn Trant or Kettleback or anyone currently serving. I don't remember any of these amazing knights stopping Aerys from abusing people - how are they different from Joffrey's enabling whitecloaks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 6 hours ago, ravenous reader said: The clue to his humanity and imperfection is in the nature of the so-called 'perfect blade' forged from the heart (possible foul play) of a fallen star. He's a fallen knight wielding a fallen blade. P.S. Gloubie -- looking forward to your developing exposition on the 'fallen Star-k' ! Or is this something like forging a sword in the heart of a lion?. And so we have Arthur Dayne the morning star of Starfall and Brienne of Tarth of Evenfall and perhaps the evening star? The morning star rising and falling. The sword is forged in the heart of a true knight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloubieBoulga Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 14 hours ago, ravenous reader said: The clue to his humanity and imperfection is in the nature of the so-called 'perfect blade' forged from the heart (possible foul play) of a fallen star. He's a fallen knight wielding a fallen blade. P.S. Gloubie -- looking forward to your developing exposition on the 'fallen Star-k' ! Exactly : Arthur and Ashara are both literaly "fallen stars", in all the senses of the word Arthur dying and his blood mixing with Lyanna's blood during childbirth (this is a image in the text, when Eddard has his fever dream from the events at the Tower of Joy, in AGOT), and that make Jon the "metal" in which a new "Dawn" (="Lightbringer") can be forged later. Ashara falling and disappearing form Starfall reinforces this imagery, and confirms imo that the sword Dawn isn't Lightbringer (at least is no more Lightbringer, if it was the case in the past : I suspect that Rhaegar and Dayne was convinced that Dawn was the ancient Lightbringer, and that they had the project to let baby Jon to the Dayne, to be educated as a "sword of the Morning"). 11 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said: I don't remember any of these amazing knights stopping Aerys from abusing people Yes, only Jaime was tempted to stop Aerys, and finally did it, when he was alone at KL = when no one of the other white guards could tell him to close his eyes, his ears, his mouth and his mind. And finally, Brienne don't mistake when she re-consideres Jaime's morality (= his kingslaying is far less horrible than pulling little Bran throw a window) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 3/29/2017 at 2:12 PM, Dorian Martell's son said: A+A=J confirmed But why stop there. A+A=J+D Or why not A+A=J+D+A I hate to say it, but there is actually nothing in the text that directly contradicts this. Barristan thinks Ashara killed herself over the loss of her brother, or the father of her child, and if it was both, and she had triplets...in that case no wonder she jumped. I mean, think about it. If her own brother dishonored her, she couldn't go to him, or to daddy, or to the royal family for help. So who would she ask for help? Maybe somebody powerful. Maybe a Stark? It's not like Barristan would ever connect that Arthur was the rat who was responsible, so of course he thinks she might have gone to him if he'd won the tourney and crowned her. He had no idea that she couldn't go to him because it was one of his KG brothers and they can't afford to have the KG dueling one-on-one over a girl. Talk about a scandal! Sure was nice of Ned to agree to take one of the triplets with him, Varys to take another, and Rhaella to take the third. Oh wait...Jon looks like a Stark. It was only Dany and Aegon. Boy, that's a relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 3/29/2017 at 2:11 PM, ravenous reader said: The clue to his humanity and imperfection is in the nature of the so-called 'perfect blade' forged from the heart (possible foul play) of a fallen star. On 3/29/2017 at 5:18 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said: Truthfully, Arthur Dayne, while a fine fighter, may have been no finer a man than Meryn Trant or Kettleback or anyone currently serving. Yes, and funny that Meera alludes to this human taint and imperfection during her tale of the KotLT, no less: "He likes the stories where the knights fight monsters." "Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 3/29/2017 at 3:11 PM, ravenous reader said: The clue to his humanity and imperfection is in the nature of the so-called 'perfect blade' forged from the heart (possible foul play) of a fallen star. He's a fallen knight wielding a fallen blade. P.S. Gloubie -- looking forward to your developing exposition on the 'fallen Star-k' ! Ha. I actually kicked this around way back when. I think the general idea was that Perhaps day is to Dayne, as star is to Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: I hate to say it, but there is actually nothing in the text that directly contradicts this. Barristan thinks Ashara killed herself over the loss of her brother, or the father of her child, and if it was both, and she had triplets...in that case no wonder she jumped. I mean, think about it. If her own brother dishonored her, she couldn't go to him, or to daddy, or to the royal family for help. So who would she ask for help? Maybe somebody powerful. Maybe a Stark? It's not like Barristan would ever connect that Arthur was the rat who was responsible, so of course he thinks she might have gone to him if he'd won the tourney and crowned her. He had no idea that she couldn't go to him because it was one of his KG brothers and they can't afford to have the KG dueling one-on-one over a girl. Talk about a scandal! Sure was nice of Ned to agree to take one of the triplets with him, Varys to take another, and Rhaella to take the third. Oh wait...Jon looks like a Stark. It was only Dany and Aegon. Boy, that's a relief. Ok, so, we just have A+A=A+D got it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 So what happened to Rhaenys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: So what happened to Rhaenys? Do you mean Queen Rhaenys or Princess Rhaenys? Princess Rhaenys was killed by Ser Amory Lorch. Queen Rhaenys is certainly dead by now but no one knows for certain the time or manner of her death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bold Wolf Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 On 3/25/2017 at 9:37 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said: I agree; doesn't Maester Pycelle say in the AWOIAF book that there were factions between the men at court, with the younger men supporting Rhaegar and the older men supporting Aerys? If that was the case, I believe that the rift extended to the Kingsguard and Barristan was the one who supported Aerys, since he was a little bit older and the younger Arthur supported Rhaegar. On 3/29/2017 at 9:28 AM, Hangover of the Morning said: I never got the impression that Barristan (or anyone for that matter) had a low opinion of Arthur Dayne. It's been awhile since I read ASoS but I think Dany mentions that Viserys told her that Rhaegar was the best fighter ever and only Arthur could somewhat match him. Barristan answers in a very diplomatic manner as he doesn't want to reveal too much and also doesn't want to offend Dany by badmouthing her brothers. He doesn't overpraise Arthur or Barristan even if he clearly thinks that they were superior fighters compared to Rhaegar, partly because he doesn't want to blow his cover and partly because he's quite humble and tends to downplay achievements by himself as well as others. If anything, Barristan might have been a little jealous of Arthur's closeness to the Prince and/or he may have some regrets over the fact that they didn't share their plans with him and the rest of the KGs. Barristan could be rightfully resentful of Arthur over his involvement in Lyanna and Rhaegar's elopement, which led to the deaths of so many people. However, Barry has nothing but good things to say about Rhaegar so if he doesn't blame the "master", he can't be mad at the "servant" for following orders. Both good points. I think the truth lies somewhere in here. Rheagar was going to depose Aerys and have himself sit the Iron Throne. He would have needed the support from the Kingsguard to pull that off. Who better than Ser Arthur Dayne? the finest knight of the age, and his close friend. Arthur Dayne probably wanted Rheagar on the throne to set the realm right. He knew the character of Rheagar, and he knew Aerys too. Ned Stark makes his thoughts on Ser Barristan clear. He is a good man and true, but rigid in his duty. To Ser Barristan, there is only black and white. He takes his vows seriously, and was one to 'go away inside' while the King committed horrors, constantly remembering his oath, and what that entails. I think the inner conflict was there, but it didn't change things for him. Theres been some discussion about the character of Arthur Dayne. I don't think he was a bad man. Rheagar was a good man, and he would seek the council and friendship that shared those qualities. I cant help but think that Rheagar and Arthur Dayne wouldn't be close if Arthur Dayne was a dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Do you mean Queen Rhaenys or Princess Rhaenys? Princess Rhaenys was killed by Ser Amory Lorch. Queen Rhaenys is certainly dead by now but no one knows for certain the time or manner of her death. I guess that Rhaenys I referred to was Rhaegar's daughter. What I mean by "what happened to her" is "why are there no theories to her parentage?" It's like she's a non-entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: I guess that Rhaenys I referred to was Rhaegar's daughter. What I mean by "what happened to her" is "why are there no theories to her parentage?" It's like she's a non-entity. Probably because she is known for certain to have died. If she's not coming back, it doesn't matter if she's the real deal or not. Though I do have a little tin-foily crackpot about her actually being Robert's daughter and Rhaegar taking Lyanna as payback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 On 24/3/2017 at 4:46 PM, Trigger Warning said: I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit of a rift in the Kingsguard between those who felt more loyalty to Rhaegar and those that would stay true to the king. On 24/3/2017 at 10:42 PM, Lord Wraith said: I'd imagine so. Just like the lords. On 25/3/2017 at 8:37 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said: I agree; doesn't Maester Pycelle say in the AWOIAF book that there were factions between the men at court, with the younger men supporting Rhaegar and the older men supporting Aerys? If that was the case, I believe that the rift extended to the Kingsguard and Barristan was the one who supported Aerys, since he was a little bit older and the younger Arthur supported Rhaegar. I think there is some evidence to support that all but Jaime and Barristan side with Rhaegar (as they all seemed to have played an important part before and during the Rebellion), so wasn't much about factions. I guess that the KG didn't fully trust Jaime (or didn't want him to get involved for some reason*) and they knew Barristan would never act against Aerys. *I'd say this is because he was very young. Remember he saw many times that left him almost traumatized. Maybe the Bull thought he would go and murder the k-- oh. On 25/3/2017 at 2:20 AM, Ygrain said: Er... you do realize that you are proposing daycest, right? That's the best kind of incest(?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.