LGBTQ+ 5 -- Now With More Gender Outlaws

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Does anyone think her implying that those who prefer to blend in and not disclose, are hiding or living a lie, is justified?

That's a tough one. I can understand holding that opinion as an activist or whatnot, but it seems really harsh. The "living a lie" part especially so. Extremely judgmental.

[Sivin]

I was talking about this with my shrink just last week. Personally I view being trans as a feature, not a bug. But my generation has a very different perspective.

[Robin Of House Hill]

If a trans woman living as a woman, but not disclosing she is trans, is living a lie, it implies that a trans woman is something other than a woman.  That's outrageous.  

[karaddin]

On 29/04/2017 at 2:29 AM, Robin Of House Hill said:

I think we need to operationally define the phrase, "out of the closet."  In your mind is a fully transitioned trans person who chooses to blend in, and NOT disclose they are trans, in or out of the closet?

I'm not going to touch on the Laverne thing because I don't really want to get into that (I haven't read her comments), but I do want to respond to this as a matter of the language we use. I don't think the "in the closet/out of the closet" dichotomy works particularly well with regards to being trans. To me the "closet" for a trans person is refusing to accept who we are, and refusing to do anything about it. Coming out of the closet is then taking the steps to be who we really are, regardless of who that involves telling - it can include picking up and starting an entirely new life somewhere else. What comes afterwards is whether you choose to be open about your life's journey or keep it private (and I think private rather than secret is a very important word choice), not going back into a closet or staying out of it.

On the earlier subject of the bikini body (I'd not checked into the thread in a while) - I find my confidence in my gender is unhealthily wrapped up in my feelings of attractiveness. I've got this really bizarre double standard where I think my weight looks awful and particularly fixate on my belly, at times thinking I look pregnant while simultaneously feeling like that makes me look less of a woman. Its clearly an absurd viewpoint, looking pregnant does not make on look like a guy, but its there. Trying to pick these things apart is the task of a lifetime and I don't know that I'll ever overcome it all, the best I can do for now is simply recognise it even as I feel it.

I'd love to feel attractive again, but health issues have really trumped my ability to even try find that in myself for now. I just have to hope other girls see me differently to how I see myself, it helps knowing there is at least one who definitely does.

[Robin Of House Hill]

9 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'm not going to touch on the Laverne thing because I don't really want to get into that (I haven't read her comments), but I do want to respond to this as a matter of the language we use. I don't think the "in the closet/out of the closet" dichotomy works particularly well with regards to being trans. To me the "closet" for a trans person is refusing to accept who we are, and refusing to do anything about it. Coming out of the closet is then taking the steps to be who we really are, regardless of who that involves telling - it can include picking up and starting an entirely new life somewhere else. What comes afterwards is whether you choose to be open about your life's journey or keep it private (and I think private rather than secret is a very important word choice), not going back into a closet or staying out of it.

On the earlier subject of the bikini body (I'd not checked into the thread in a while) - I find my confidence in my gender is unhealthily wrapped up in my feelings of attractiveness. I've got this really bizarre double standard where I think my weight looks awful and particularly fixate on my belly, at times thinking I look pregnant while simultaneously feeling like that makes me look less of a woman. Its clearly an absurd viewpoint, looking pregnant does not make on look like a guy, but its there. Trying to pick these things apart is the task of a lifetime and I don't know that I'll ever overcome it all, the best I can do for now is simply recognise it even as I feel it.

I'd love to feel attractive again, but health issues have really trumped my ability to even try find that in myself for now. I just have to hope other girls see me differently to how I see myself, it helps knowing there is at least one who definitely does.

I completely agree about the language.

The closest I ever got to a bikini body was in 1979, when I got down to 165 lbs, but even then, I knew the proportions were wrong. Hell, in the last 40 years, I've cataloged so many ways, my body doesn't approach cisnormativity, it would depress most people.  My interest in achieving that appearance isn't vanity.  It's concern for safety.  Hell, I suck my gut in, now, way more than when I was in the army.

I can't remember a time when I felt attractive.  I was able to settle for "tolerable."  I never really anticipated how much the effects of aging would make my face look like crap, though.

BTW, if you should decide to read the Cox article, I'll leave the link here. The article also contains a link to another interview with her, again criticizing those who adhere to cisnormative appearance.

[karaddin]

I remain committed to not reading it. I will say that if I were here I'd be feeling very afraid and in a spotlight, so I can understand why she'd want as many as possible to try show there are too many of us to be silenced or pushed out of sight. I strive to be understanding of girls like us even when I'm not agreeing with them, we've all got enough shit on us without me joining in. You'll recall that even with the bunch of (at best) unhelpful stuff that Kaitlyn Jenner has said, I've never personally attacked her either.

I'm actually much closer to cis proportions than I have any right to be, my chest is a bit big (and I fixate on this) but I do have quite pronounced hips/waist and if I was actually capable of maintaining a weight I'm happy with I'd be quite satisfied with my body in a bikini. So in this respect my concerns are much more in line with what an awful lot of cis women feel...I just have the added layer of feeling like my failure to meet this undermines my gender.

[Robin Of House Hill]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I remain committed to not reading it. I will say that if I were here I'd be feeling very afraid and in a spotlight, so I can understand why she'd want as many as possible to try show there are too many of us to be silenced or pushed out of sight. I strive to be understanding of girls like us even when I'm not agreeing with them, we've all got enough shit on us without me joining in. You'll recall that even with the bunch of (at best) unhelpful stuff that Kaitlyn Jenner has said, I've never personally attacked her either.

I'm actually much closer to cis proportions than I have any right to be, my chest is a bit big (and I fixate on this) but I do have quite pronounced hips/waist and if I was actually capable of maintaining a weight I'm happy with I'd be quite satisfied with my body in a bikini. So in this respect my concerns are much more in line with what an awful lot of cis women feel...I just have the added layer of feeling like my failure to meet this undermines my gender.

My apologies.  I didn't mean to push you in a direction you didn't  mean to go.  At my age, I sometimes to pick up on all the nuances of what is said.

I'm not attacking Laverne Cox, but what she said is troubling.  It might be the right approach for her to follow, but might not be for everyone.  As far as Caitlyn Jenner is concerned, I might not think she is the brightest bulb in the pack, you'd be surprised at the number of people I've unfriended on Facebook, because of their attacks on her.

Between weight issues and the effects of aging, the only thing that has improved, is my ability to use Photoshop on selfies.  Even there, I think I've reached the limits of my ability .I don't think my inability to meet the standard I've set, impacts my gender, but I do worry that it impacts the perceptions of those I encounter.  And that does worry me.

 

[UnAzor]

[Silly rant deleted.  Poster banned.]

[Sivin]

Aww man! I was waiting to learn about how intolerant I am of those who would persecute me!

[Robin Of House Hill]

22 hours ago, WinterFox said:

Aww man! I was waiting to learn about how intolerant I am of those who would persecute me!

I seem to miss all the excitement, though I guess it was for the best.

ETA:  Excitement is a poor choice of words and an attempt at humor.  I do, however, prefer to know what things are said, so I can guage how crappy the world really is.

[karaddin]

I'd just like to express my appreciation for what a firm stance the mods have taken on this now. In a world full of shit, it makes a difference to me at least. Thank you.

[Lily Valley]

On 5/6/2017 at 2:38 AM, karaddin said:

I'd just like to express my appreciation for what a firm stance the mods have taken on this now. In a world full of shit, it makes a difference to me at least. Thank you.

Thanks from me too.  Don't know what I missed, but I am glad to waltz back in here without getting poked in the eye.

 

On 5/3/2017 at 3:33 PM, Robin Of House Hill said:

I originally posted this on Facebook, but pulled it down over a day later, when I realized I had accidentally outed myself to someone on my friends list who was not aware I was trans. (I'm still cursing at myself for that mistake)  Go ahead and laugh, if you must.  This is what I said, followed by the link to which I was referring.

Does anyone think her implying that those who prefer to blend in and not disclose, are hiding or living a lie, is justified?

I completely disagree with that idea.  Y'all know I just came out as queer myself at work.  Can't hide a wife forever.  To me, "coming out" was important not only to support my students at work, but also I am getting married and I don't live in a vacuum.  Sooner or later my family would have found out.  My employer will be notified the SECOND the ink is dry on my marriage certificate.  My girl NEEDS my health insurance.

 

 Robin, your trans status is only relevant to the INVALUABLE things you have shared here from your experience.   I have gained a lot of knowledge and strength as an ally and as a queer from your thoughtful posts.   Otherwise, your trans status is nobody's business.  As to your appearance, you look a lot like the women in my family (who are also tough as hell and whip smart).   Had I not already known about your history, it certainly never would have occurred to me to speculate.   

On 5/4/2017 at 2:04 AM, karaddin said:

I'm not going to touch on the Laverne thing because I don't really want to get into that (I haven't read her comments), but I do want to respond to this as a matter of the language we use. I don't think the "in the closet/out of the closet" dichotomy works particularly well with regards to being trans. To me the "closet" for a trans person is refusing to accept who we are, and refusing to do anything about it. Coming out of the closet is then taking the steps to be who we really are, regardless of who that involves telling - it can include picking up and starting an entirely new life somewhere else. What comes afterwards is whether you choose to be open about your life's journey or keep it private (and I think private rather than secret is a very important word choice), not going back into a closet or staying out of it.

On the earlier subject of the bikini body (I'd not checked into the thread in a while) - I find my confidence in my gender is unhealthily wrapped up in my feelings of attractiveness. I've got this really bizarre double standard where I think my weight looks awful and particularly fixate on my belly, at times thinking I look pregnant while simultaneously feeling like that makes me look less of a woman. Its clearly an absurd viewpoint, looking pregnant does not make on look like a guy, but its there. Trying to pick these things apart is the task of a lifetime and I don't know that I'll ever overcome it all, the best I can do for now is simply recognise it even as I feel it.

I'd love to feel attractive again, but health issues have really trumped my ability to even try find that in myself for now. I just have to hope other girls see me differently to how I see myself, it helps knowing there is at least one who definitely does.

Kara, I had no idea you were feeling bad about your appearance.  I would like to direct you towards exhibit A, the average stereotypical lesbian's body.  The most beautiful body type on planet earth.  It comes in all different shapes and sizes.  As a lover of the female form in all of it's aspects, I have had loooooooooooong conversations with other women and some men about the fine attributes of women's bellies, the texture of their beautiful flesh.  You're beautiful.  (Yes, brook!   I am totally flirting with your fiancee!)  

My fiancee prides herself on her leanness and her physical strength.  She is a sculptor and needs her body to serve her for some very tough physical labor.  She bemoans what that leanness has done to her face and her curves and her skin tone.  I think she is beautiful.  The lines on her face remind me of what we both have survived over the last 20 years we have known one another.  My point is, we are never happy, none of us with the beautiful bodies we wear.   I just want you to know that ALL women have a very hard time with weight fluctuations and body shape changes.  It's a totally normal part of being a woman.  Sucks and I am sorry to hear it is undermining you.  

I love you all, you beautiful creatures.

 

@Weeping Sore

Great news about work!   I am pulling for you, honey!

[Robin Of House Hill]

4 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

I completely disagree with that idea.  Y'all know I just came out as queer myself at work.  Can't hide a wife forever.  To me, "coming out" was important not only to support my students at work, but also I am getting married and I don't live in a vacuum.  Sooner or later my family would have found out.  My employer will be notified the SECOND the ink is dry on my marriage certificate.  My girl NEEDS my health insurance.

 

 

 

Lily Valley,

My wife and I have been together since 1985.  We were legally married in 2015, but until we moved from Los Angeles shortly after, we were "roommates" to those around us.  That story, held up, as far as we know.  We never had the opportunity for either of us to benefit from the other's health insurance, but I acknowledge that is an important consideration.  When I asked her about getting married, her initial reaction was what did it add, after we'd been together so long.  The question of next of kin inheritance rights and healthcare decisions if one of us was incapacitated, were the unromantic, but pragmatic reasons we decided to.  Unlike you, I live in a partial vacuum.  The closest real world friend I have is thousands of miles away.  I have no local friends an keep the neighbors at arm's length.  In other words, I say good morning to them and may chat about the weather or their dogs, but I never let the conversation go further than that.

Quote

Robin, your trans status is only relevant to the INVALUABLE things you have shared here from your experience.   I have gained a lot of knowledge and strength as an ally and as a queer from your thoughtful posts.   Otherwise, your trans status is nobody's business.  As to your appearance, you look a lot like the women in my family (who are also tough as hell and whip smart).   Had I not already known about your history, it certainly never would have occurred to me to speculate.   

Here's where it gets complicated.  You're the only person from this board that I've ever met in person, so you know I can negotiate my way through a crowd without being noticed.  You have no idea how much my mind was racing to keep it that way.  You see, all it takes is one butthead to call me out for being trans, in the middle of crowd.  The problem is magnified many times if someone is with me.  I don't ever want someone to see that.

When you say it wouldn't have occurred to you that I was trans, had you not already known, let me ask this question.  If you lived next door to me, how long do you think it would take before you began to suspect?

[Lily Valley]

20 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Lily Valley,

My wife and I have been together since 1985.  We were legally married in 2015, but until we moved from Los Angeles shortly after, we were "roommates" to those around us.  That story, held up, as far as we know.  We never had the opportunity for either of us to benefit from the other's health insurance, but I acknowledge that is an important consideration.  When I asked her about getting married, her initial reaction was what did it add, after we'd been together so long.  The question of next of kin inheritance rights and healthcare decisions if one of us was incapacitated, were the unromantic, but pragmatic reasons we decided to.  Unlike you, I live in a partial vacuum.  The closest real world friend I have is thousands of miles away.  I have no local friends an keep the neighbors at arm's length.  In other words, I say good morning to them and may chat about the weather or their dogs, but I never let the conversation go further than that.

Here's where it gets complicated.  You're the only person from this board that I've ever met in person, so you know I can negotiate my way through a crowd without being noticed.  You have no idea how much my mind was racing to keep it that way.  You see, all it takes is one butthead to call me out for being trans, in the middle of crowd.  The problem is magnified many times if someone is with me.  I don't ever want someone to see that.

When you say it wouldn't have occurred to you that I was trans, had you not already known, let me ask this question.  If you lived next door to me, how long do you think it would take before you began to suspect?

I am very familiar with the "roomate" or "sister" game.  It's safer.  To be honest, if I was your neighbor I'd have pegged you for a lesbian right away, probably out of that same secret code.

I had to give some thought about whether or not I would have speculated about your trans identity.  I really don't think I would.  Keep in mind where I live.  I live around an ENORMOUS per capita population of trans and queer people.  The only ones that I ever notice or wonder about are those that cross my path in early transition.  Many young people come here just for that.  They can blend in easily and try on different identities without it really raising a brow.  I live about 6 blocks from the queer end of the French Quarter.  The wide range of ways that people present themselves is really remarkable.  Plus, this is New Orleans.  I moved here to a by-the-week apartment on Bourbon Street and lived there a couple of years.  That building held a real shocking wake-up to my rube white-bread teenage self.  Someday I'll tell you about my neighbors.  I think it completely turned me off looking for MORE differences.

I tend to be on higher alert with the young people that I see changing.  This is primarily due to their vulnerability, especially if they have chosen to continue with school or a job where I am exposed to them on a regular basis.  Most of the time, I really have no idea and no curiosity.  This has only recently changed for me since I've been working with the LGBTQ kids at my school.  The young people are really firm about their pronouns and much more likely to talk to faculty than they used to,  and that's a new thing for me.   New Orleans is very traditional in some ways, up until Katrina it was he/she based on presentation.    I understand why the kids want to be seen.  I was an adolescent once, too.  I have more to say on this and how it ties into the Laverne Cox article,  but I have been grading for 2 solid days and I am already rambling.

I am CERTAIN that if I were your neighbor, you would make sure I was minding my own business.  I work 60+ hours a week.  I really don't need that much encouragement to do so.  I might try to chat you up to have a lesbian friend in the building, but I take "No, THANK YOU," for an answer pretty well.  It would be harder to do here, where people are sooooooooooo chatty, but I still have one or two neighbors on my block that maintain some privacy.  

By the way, thanks again for meeting me.  Cannot reccommend your good taste in food and conversational skills enough.  6/5 stars.  

As an edit:  My proposal was equally unromantic.  I was all, "I got HEALTH INSURANCE!  I got HALF A HOUSE!  I got 99 problems that you'd fix because you'd be my NEXT OF KIN!"

Apparently it was hot.

[karaddin]

LV - Thanks. I know pretty much all of that intellectually, unfortunately what remains of my dysphoria doesn't bow down to logic. As I said, when its taken "yeah, a belly that looks pregnant totes looks male" its pretty much left any claim to reason a long way behind. Its really an overlapping bunch of issues going on, I've gained weight because of health issues and I'm keeping it because of the same. Those same health issues cause me a lot of other feelings of inadequacy around how capable I am etc as well, some of which again goes back to deep buried bullshit male socialisation.

After driving for the first time in a couple of months on the weekend, I'm feeling like I'm just not safe to drive anymore and really struggling to accept that because somewhere deep down inside, at some point I got the message "a man needs to drive his family around" and it doesnt matter that I reject that itself as bullshit and that I'm not a guy...I applied that shit to myself and its hard to dig out.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

29 minutes ago, karaddin said:

After driving for the first time in a couple of months on the weekend, I'm feeling like I'm just not safe to drive anymore and really struggling to accept that because somewhere deep down inside, at some point I got the message "a man needs to drive his family around" and it doesnt matter that I reject that itself as bullshit and that I'm not a guy...I applied that shit to myself and its hard to dig out.

Yeah, dig yourself out of that one. My wife drives us everywhere. She's just a better driver than I am. I could give a hairy rat's ass what anyone thinks about it. 

[Lily Valley]

38 minutes ago, karaddin said:

LV - Thanks. I know pretty much all of that intellectually, unfortunately what remains of my dysphoria doesn't bow down to logic. As I said, when its taken "yeah, a belly that looks pregnant totes looks male" its pretty much left any claim to reason a long way behind. Its really an overlapping bunch of issues going on, I've gained weight because of health issues and I'm keeping it because of the same. Those same health issues cause me a lot of other feelings of inadequacy around how capable I am etc as well, some of which again goes back to deep buried bullshit male socialisation.

After driving for the first time in a couple of months on the weekend, I'm feeling like I'm just not safe to drive anymore and really struggling to accept that because somewhere deep down inside, at some point I got the message "a man needs to drive his family around" and it doesnt matter that I reject that itself as bullshit and that I'm not a guy...I applied that shit to myself and its hard to dig out.

Kara, I don't drive anymore and I was a single soccer mum for 20 years.  I am having serious problems at work from it.  As the functional adult and teacher (mom),  it's anathema that I don't drive.  It has caused a huge problem this semester with my boss.  I am sticking with it.  Driving has cost me so much money because I am SO BAD at it.  Here the expectation is the the responsible woman drives all the errands.  All of them.  I'm sorry, 1-2-3 not it.  I am scared I will kill someone.   As it is, I averaged a low-speed at fault accident every year for 5 straight years.  Don't be me.  Xoxo.  I am really sorry to hear about your health struggles.

[karaddin]

I do think I'll manage to accept it now, because it really is past the point of just being uncomfortable driving, my combo of sensory issues + migraine related issues are making me vision unreliable to the point I think I'm legitimately unsafe. Its not traditional vision problems that would show up on a test either, so I wouldn't get noticed - just my own responsible behaviour flagging it.

[Lily Valley]

For me it was increasing discomfort.  I didn't drive until I was 27 and then I was "MOM DRIVER!!"  At that point I had 15 years of bicyclist driving training under my belt.  I managed it for a while.  It was pretty awful for everyone.  Once my son didn't need to be at 16 different places every saturday I was all, "Why the FUCK am I doing this???"  Oh, and I test just fine and I also probably get into less accidents than most of my friends.  I just KNOW that one shouldn't be driving 40 mph on the freeway and terrified.

[Robin Of House Hill]

1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

I am very familiar with the "roomate" or "sister" game.  It's safer.  To be honest, if I was your neighbor I'd have pegged you for a lesbian right away, probably out of that same secret code.

I had to give some thought about whether or not I would have speculated about your trans identity.  I really don't think I would.  Keep in mind where I live.  I live around an ENORMOUS per capita population of trans and queer people.  The only ones that I ever notice or wonder about are those that cross my path in early transition.  Many young people come here just for that.  They can blend in easily and try on different identities without it really raising a brow.  I live about 6 blocks from the queer end of the French Quarter.  The wide range of ways that people present themselves is really remarkable.  Plus, this is New Orleans.  I moved here to a by-the-week apartment on Bourbon Street and lived there a couple of years.  That building held a real shocking wake-up to my rube white-bread teenage self.  Someday I'll tell you about my neighbors.  I think it completely turned me off looking for MORE differences.

I tend to be on higher alert with the young people that I see changing.  This is primarily due to their vulnerability, especially if they have chosen to continue with school or a job where I am exposed to them on a regular basis.  Most of the time, I really have no idea and no curiosity.  This has only recently changed for me since I've been working with the LGBTQ kids at my school.  The young people are really firm about their pronouns and much more likely to talk to faculty than they used to,  and that's a new thing for me.   New Orleans is very traditional in some ways, up until Katrina it was he/she based on presentation.    I understand why the kids want to be seen.  I was an adolescent once, too.  I have more to say on this and how it ties into the Laverne Cox article,  but I have been grading for 2 solid days and I am already rambling.

I am CERTAIN that if I were your neighbor, you would make sure I was minding my own business.  I work 60+ hours a week.  I really don't need that much encouragement to do so.  I might try to chat you up to have a lesbian friend in the building, but I take "No, THANK YOU," for an answer pretty well.  It would be harder to do here, where people are sooooooooooo chatty, but I still have one or two neighbors on my block that maintain some privacy.  

By the way, thanks again for meeting me.  Cannot reccommend your good taste in food and conversational skills enough.  6/5 stars.  

As an edit:  My proposal was equally unromantic.  I was all, "I got HEALTH INSURANCE!  I got HALF A HOUSE!  I got 99 problems that you'd fix because you'd be my NEXT OF KIN!"

Apparently it was hot.

My point of view was radically altered in one week in 1984.  On Wednesday I learned that two women with whom I'd been friends for a couple of years, and had mistakenly trusted with the information I was trans, outed me because of a disagreement we had regarding an organization we were in.  On Friday, I had forgotten to remove a button with a lesbian symbol on it, off my jacket, when I went to work and had the bad luck of getting into the elevator the firm's comptroller was in.  She saw it immediately.  That afternoon, I was fired.  After that, the first time I disclosed being trans to anyone, was in August of 2013, on this board, in a predecessor of this thread. And the only reason I did that is because someone deserved honesty, and the ploy I had used of knowing a trans women in the 80s to explain how I knew what I knew, didn't cut it. In the real world, disclosure never produced positive results.

I envy those who can work within a community and gain from it.  I tried and failed.  When I transitioned, there was no community.  Everything I had to accomplished, had to be done alone.  I did not have a face to face conversation with any trans person from 1985 to 2014.  I had become the perfect stealth trans person, but I can't get back to that state.  Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to go back.

BTW, you have no idea how much I debated with myself, about meeting you for lunch.  I'd only been to downtown Tucson, once, to pick up my "old fart's" bus pass, so I wasn't familiar with the territory.  That plus the fact I felt I'd be a terrible disappointment.

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

LV - Thanks. I know pretty much all of that intellectually, unfortunately what remains of my dysphoria doesn't bow down to logic. As I said, when its taken "yeah, a belly that looks pregnant totes looks male" its pretty much left any claim to reason a long way behind. Its really an overlapping bunch of issues going on, I've gained weight because of health issues and I'm keeping it because of the same. Those same health issues cause me a lot of other feelings of inadequacy around how capable I am etc as well, some of which again goes back to deep buried bullshit male socialisation.

After driving for the first time in a couple of months on the weekend, I'm feeling like I'm just not safe to drive anymore and really struggling to accept that because somewhere deep down inside, at some point I got the message "a man needs to drive his family around" and it doesnt matter that I reject that itself as bullshit and that I'm not a guy...I applied that shit to myself and its hard to dig out.

I'm sorry you've had to deal with that.  I knew that what you used to post and the few things you've posted recently, differed quite a bit.  But realizing how we've disagreed on so much, it probably wasn't wise for me to say anything.