LGBTQ+ 5 -- Now With More Gender Outlaws

[karaddin]

Part of that is the world tearing down my optimism. Part of it is that I haven't been the same since my Mum died and I had such a lengthy and painful recovery. I think the part that's left the lasting damage is the first part, but its all bundled up together. I need to get back to my old counsellor, but I've just been struggling with everything and the stress of dealing with phone calls has been defeating me.

[Robin Of House Hill]

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

Part of that is the world tearing down my optimism. Part of it is that I haven't been the same since my Mum died and I had such a lengthy and painful recovery. I think the part that's left the lasting damage is the first part, but its all bundled up together. I need to get back to my old counsellor, but I've just been struggling with everything and the stress of dealing with phone calls has been defeating me.

I never had a chance to have much optimism.  Ten months after I began my transition, the woman who helped show me I was possible for me to do, was brutally murdered.  Couldn't turn back, but it was always in the back of my mind.  So there was no optimism in my view, thought I have to admit that in 2014, I had a glimmer of hope that things were improving.  Then the succeeding years dashed that glimmer of hope.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but despite what you've suffered.  I envy you.  Even though I must follow it, I don't recommend the path I'm on.

Oh yeah.  phone calls suck!

[Theda Baratheon]

On Tuesday, May 09, 2017 at 8:48 AM, karaddin said:

Part of that is the world tearing down my optimism. Part of it is that I haven't been the same since my Mum died and I had such a lengthy and painful recovery. I think the part that's left the lasting damage is the first part, but its all bundled up together. I need to get back to my old counsellor, but I've just been struggling with everything and the stress of dealing with phone calls has been defeating me.

 thinking of you, my friend - hope you are OK 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 So on a lighter note, I have a quick question. How in the hell do we not have a Gay Divorce Court television show yet? Why hasn't this happened? Somebody has dropped the ball here, and I demand some answers.

[karaddin]

Perhaps because a lot of the people you'd need to get on board for that find the idea of letting homophobic straight people laugh at the spectacle of camp gay people going through divorce rather infuriating. Maybe not, there are a lot of people willing to sell out for cash, but personally there's no fucking way in hell I'd let anything of mine go near that.

[Robin Of House Hill]

4 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 So on a lighter note, I have a quick question. How in the hell do we not have a Gay Divorce Court television show yet? Why hasn't this happened? Somebody has dropped the ball here, and I demand some answers.

Right, and it would be better if they were stereotypical gay people.  That would get more laughs.  There is an interesting history of entertainment designed to allow cis/het white folks to be entertained.  Charlie Chan, an Asian played by a white man. who was portrayed as wise, so everyone could laugh at his bumbling sons, who were actually Asian.  Then there was The Jeffersons where a black man is portrayed in a manner to get laughs, while All in the Family portrays a white racist, as "lovable."  Or how about Transamerica where a trans woman is portrayed  by a cis woman as a stereotype, for laughs.

No, we are not here for your entertainment.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Not going to dogpile, but yeah. Agreed with Karaddin and Robin here. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Fair enough. I can understand that it would certainly be problematic, and that likely there would be a sort of point and laugh reaction to something like that. 

 

[Weeping Sore]

I'm interested in the phenomenon of stereotype partaken of to form a public persona. That is, to help signify what I am to the outer world, I will use the world's language to shape the "outer self".

We accept that some gay men try to be "straight-acting" or "masc" to increase the level of respect in society, and I'd say the opposite also occurs- taking on received notions of a more "flaming" gay stereotype (or archetype?) to form a more obviously gay persona.

I'm using persona here to mean a public self as opposed to the "true" self or subjectively understood self. I think that the language around "closeted" and "out" is a little bit simplistic, because there will always be a disparity between the true self and the persona, even after "coming out".

[Robin Of House Hill]

I'd be more interested in how much of a difference there is between a person's "outer" and "true" self.  If there is a difference, I'd be curious as to the reason.

[Weeping Sore]

23 minutes ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

I'd be more interested in how much of a difference there is between a person's "outer" and "true" self.  If there is a difference, I'd be curious as to the reason.

I'd say the only people that have no discrepancy are extreme extroverts who identify completely with the persona or public self and are constantly surrounding themselves with people (i.e., "don't know how to be alone") and extreme introverts who are basically shut-ins and don't have to bother with any performative social graces.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Now for a different question.  How would the outer self of a post-transition trans person differ from the true self?

[Weeping Sore]

2 minutes ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Now for a different question.  How would the outer self of a post-transition trans person differ from the true self?

I think transition means unblocking the true self while creating a new persona that is more closely aligned with the true self. But there is still a gap, unless you're some kind of fully enlightened being that lives in truth with every word and breath.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Obviously, one's public persona is is heavily influenced by environmental forces.  It is unlikely to be the same, at work, with close friends, family, or strangers.  That factor isn't restricted to LGBTIQ.  

[Weeping Sore]

16 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Obviously, one's public persona is is heavily influenced by environmental forces.  It is unlikely to be the same, at work, with close friends, family, or strangers.  That factor isn't restricted to LGBTIQ.  

Absolutely

[Robin Of House Hill]

Oh goodness, I read the quote as, "Obviously, one's public paranoia," and now, I can't stop laughing.

[Dr. Pepper]

Speaking of public persona....So my gf and I are on the outs.  She doesn't ever talk about being trans.  She rarely mentions it to her lovers.  I've always assumed that it's just not something she's interested in talking about.  She has passing privilege, there's never anyone who suspects unless they already know. 

Recently we were out to dinner with one of her co workers.  She's spoken about this woman many times.  I believed they were work besties or something.  At dinner, the work bestie started spouting some incredibly bigoted stuff.  I was shocked, because why the fuck would my gf want to hang out with this piece of shit? Then my gf started joining in.  Maybe not as aggressively as work bestie, but she was still doing it.  I don't stand for that shit.  We fought on the way home. She said I could never understand the stress of having to worry about blending in and passing.  That's true, I don't understand.  But I can't imagine ever working so hard to blend in that you'd become friends with a scumbag and then join in with the disgusting conversation. Needless to say I ended it immediately.

But...relationships can be hard to end.  Ex-ish gf has tried and tried to explain in an effort to resume the relationship.  I want to understand and I want to believe that she's just in a position where she has to uphold this shitty public persona just to blend in. We live in an extremely conservative area and it can be extra dangerous for LGBTQ people.  I just feel like there have to be some lines that you do not cross.  It makes me sick to think one of my kids could hear her saying these things.  

Is this a thing?  Is the desperation to not be outed so strong at times that you'll do anything, including befriend someone and then join a conversation where racial slurs are tossed about?  

[Robin Of House Hill]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Speaking of public persona....So my gf and I are on the outs.  She doesn't ever talk about being trans.  She rarely mentions it to her lovers.  I've always assumed that it's just not something she's interested in talking about.  She has passing privilege, there's never anyone who suspects unless they already know. 

Recently we were out to dinner with one of her co workers.  She's spoken about this woman many times.  I believed they were work besties or something.  At dinner, the work bestie started spouting some incredibly bigoted stuff.  I was shocked, because why the fuck would my gf want to hang out with this piece of shit? Then my gf started joining in.  Maybe not as aggressively as work bestie, but she was still doing it.  I don't stand for that shit.  We fought on the way home. She said I could never understand the stress of having to worry about blending in and passing.  That's true, I don't understand.  But I can't imagine ever working so hard to blend in that you'd become friends with a scumbag and then join in with the disgusting conversation. Needless to say I ended it immediately.

But...relationships can be hard to end.  Ex-ish gf has tried and tried to explain in an effort to resume the relationship.  I want to understand and I want to believe that she's just in a position where she has to uphold this shitty public persona just to blend in. We live in an extremely conservative area and it can be extra dangerous for LGBTQ people.  I just feel like there have to be some lines that you do not cross.  It makes me sick to think one of my kids could hear her saying these things.  

Is this a thing?  Is the desperation to not be outed so strong at times that you'll do anything, including befriend someone and then join a conversation where racial slurs are tossed about?  

Having done my best to blend in for more than 40 years, I might have some insight here.  A number of years back, my boss was meeting with a few employees, including me.  He mentioned that there was a trans woman where he used to work, and then when into a long discourse about why would anyone do something like that,  There was a brief discussion.  One person was actually supportive, while another thought it was weird.  In such a situation, my protocol is to be neutral, and therefor, invisible.  A nod, a shrug and a "if someone doesn't bother me, I don't bother them."  While the situation wasn't as extreme as what you described, I made every effort to keep myself from being detected.  The problem is really simple.  If one person figures it out, you can assume they won't keep that information to themselves. In a conservative area, that can be a major problem.  I admit the rules of "stealth" or "blending in" can be onerous, but once outed, it can be dangerous and you can't undo it, unless you relocate, so it is a big deal.

[Dr. Pepper]

6 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Having done my best to blend in for more than 40 years, I might have some insight here.  A number of years back, my boss was meeting with a few employees, including me.  He mentioned that there was a trans woman where he used to work, and then when into a long discourse about why would anyone do something like that,  There was a brief discussion.  One person was actually supportive, while another thought it was weird.  In such a situation, my protocol is to be neutral, and therefor, invisible.  A nod, a shrug and a "if someone doesn't bother me, I don't bother them."  While the situation wasn't as extreme as what you described, I made every effort to keep myself from being detected.  The problem is really simple.  If one person figures it out, you can assume they won't keep that information to themselves. In a conservative area, that can be a major problem.  I admit the rules of "stealth" or "blending in" can be onerous, but once outed, it can be dangerous and you can't undo it, unless you relocate, so it is a big deal.

The situation you described seems reasonable.  I can't deny that I haven't taken a similar approach in certain situations, especially lately.  In this new town I've given many nods and shrugs and empty smiles to these Trumpettes, though I acknowledge I do so more out of convenience than because my personal safety is immediately threatened.  I'm just really torn on where the line is, what's considered too far.

[karaddin]

I can see where she's coming from but I don't think understanding necessarily means you have to accept it or ignore that it crosses your line. Talking it through from understanding but saying that it is across your red line seems fair, there's no set outcome that has to happen other than you deciding what's most important to you.

ETA: in theory it would be for me, but I can't say for sure my principles wouldn't cave in the face of love. I think I'd accept it if there was a promise to act differently, although how to get the from here may be hard.