LGBTQ+ 5 -- Now With More Gender Outlaws

[Yukle]

I was chatting with my girlfriends the other day and we noticed that, to the best of our knowledge, none of our male friends are bisexual and only one female friend identifies as such.

But it seems hugely unlikely that it's the case that there are so few; they just haven't shared it with us. Obviously, it's none of our business, any more that it's anybody's business what anybody else's sexuality is.

It's a personal question that nobody need answer, but does it feel harder being bisexual than having an exclusive preference? Is there pressure on you to, "pick one"?

I really hope not. And lots of love to all. Sorry if this feels like a prying line of thought.

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Yukle said:

I was chatting with my girlfriends the other day and we noticed that, to the best of our knowledge, none of our male friends are bisexual and only one female friend identifies as such.

But it seems hugely unlikely that it's the case that there are so few; they just haven't shared it with us. Obviously, it's none of our business, any more that it's anybody's business what anybody else's sexuality is.

It's a personal question that nobody need answer, but does it feel harder being bisexual than having an exclusive preference? Is there pressure on you to, "pick one"?

I really hope not. And lots of love to all. Sorry if this feels like a prying line of thought.

I think bisexuality has a certain stigma (even beyond homosexuality), people would rather identify as gay or straight. I met a girl who came out as gay to her mother, who was totally accepting. She later told her she was actually bi, and her mum said "that's just slutty, you have to choose".

I have a friend whose been with quite a few of both, and actually said she generally prefers sex with dudes (I know, bit personal, but that's who she is). But she is in a long term gay relationship, and definitely identifies as lesbian. And the other way, I know a lot of girls who identify as straight, but will admit at least a degree of attraction to women. Of course, most people wouldn't think that just a little same sex attraction makes you bi.

I was thinking about this because I read this interview with Billie Jean King- " Or, I think more of us are fluid and can be with either. And they’d say: ‘That’s bisexual.’ Well, I don’t know. I’m with Ilana – it’s going to be 38 years in October, so to me I’m a lesbian right now. If something happened to Ilana, I don’t know, I’m always open. ...I prefer looking at men’s bodies, though,” she confides. “I think women, it’s more of an emotional thing. It’s physical, but it’s different. Whereas men’s bodies, I love broad shoulders, I love that look. So, I don’t know. I’m not sure. I’m a little screwed up, but it’s all right. At least I’m open to everybody.”

I don't know about you, but to me it's pretty clear she's bisexual by the usual definition of the term. But hey, we're all free to identify as we want to.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Before I answer I want to make something very clear: the primary goal of this thread is a support thread for LBGTQ+ people. It is not here for cis/straight people to talk to each other about the LGBTQ+ experience, nor is it here so that cis/straight people can play 1,000 questions with LGBTQ+ people. 

As such, while I will let the above question stand -- because Yukle asked in a polite manner, in what appears to be good-faith, and with the clear indication that answering was optional -- if I feel that this thread is becoming hostile to the very people it is supposed to serve, or if I feel that cis/straight people are taking up all the air in the room, I will step in for some active moderating. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in abiding by the goals of this particular thread. [/mod]

[Theda Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

I was chatting with my girlfriends the other day and we noticed that, to the best of our knowledge, none of our male friends are bisexual and only one female friend identifies as such.

But it seems hugely unlikely that it's the case that there are so few; they just haven't shared it with us. Obviously, it's none of our business, any more that it's anybody's business what anybody else's sexuality is.

It's a personal question that nobody need answer, but does it feel harder being bisexual than having an exclusive preference? Is there pressure on you to, "pick one"?

I really hope not. And lots of love to all. Sorry if this feels like a prying line of thought.

I don't want to get into a ''i have it worse'' type of discussion, but I definitely think biphobia exists and is a totally separate thing to homophobia. I know of a few people who would be fine with someone being either gay or straight, but if you're bisexual it becomes too confusing and you certainly to get the ''pick one!'' sentiment. 

I absolutely want to point out that, not to cause any division or anything, but that gay people are just as guilty of this as straight people: ''oh what percentage are you? Just pick one! You're greedy!'' and all sorts of other nasty things. 

I think biphobia exists not only in its erasure or attempted erasure but also in the fact some monosexual people (gay and straight) just simply don't like the idea of it. It has lots of negative stigma attached to it so these days I'm much more happy to identify as ''queer'' rather than bisexual or pansexual even though I am absolutely neither straight nor gay. 

I understand the importance of labels and that sometimes labels can be a statement tied to a range of differing factors but for me I think this can sometimes come at the expense of bisexual people. 

We're often not seen as worthy of protection because ''we can just go straight'' and it's hurtful to have your identity questioned like that.

I've been thinking about this more and more - I'm so, so sorry if this post sounds, in any way, anti-lgbtQ+ - it absolutely wasn't intended to be but I have just come to the conclusion that biphobia and homophobia, whilst they overlap at points, are not the same and they don't stem from the same place either. 

[Theda Baratheon]

1 minute ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

[mod] Before I answer I want to make something very clear: the primary goal of this thread is a support thread for LBGTQ+ people. It is not here for cis/straight people to talk to each other about the LGBTQ+ experience, nor is it here so that cis/straight people can pepper LGBTQ+ people with questions. 

As such, while I will let the above question stand -- because Yukle asked in a polite manner and with the clear indication that answering was optional -- if I feel that this thread is becoming hostile to the very people it is supposed to serve, or if I feel that cis/straight people are taking up all the air in the room, I will step in for some active moderating. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in abiding by the goals of this particular thread. [/mod]

Thank you for being so awesome, X-ray.  

[Xray the Enforcer]

5 hours ago, Yukle said:

It's a personal question that nobody need answer, but does it feel harder being bisexual than having an exclusive preference? Is there pressure on you to, "pick one"?

I really hope not. And lots of love to all. Sorry if this feels like a prying line of thought.

While it is impossible for me to speak to your particular situation, I can speak to mine. I have been "out" as bi/queer for something like 25 years. While I've never personally found it difficult to be bi/queer, I've encountered my fair share of stupidity from both the gay and straight communities regarding bisexuality/pansexuality and done lots of labor getting them to come around (with varying amounts of success). I've personally never been pressured to "choose," although I have run into the occasional dim-witted shithead who thinks I've magically become "not-bi" because I'm in a LTR with a cisgender man. (This is one manifestation of the "bi erasure" that Theda mentioned.)

But! If you asked most of my acquaintances my orientation, I bet that at least 70 percent would say "straight" because if I don't explicitly state to everyone that I'm bi/queer, they'll assume I'm straight. Which might be a factor with your own group of friends. 

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

While it is impossible for me to speak to your particular situation, I can speak to mine. I have been "out" as bi/queer for something like 25 years. While I've never personally found it difficult to be bi/queer, I've encountered my fair share of stupidity from both the gay and straight communities regarding bisexuality/pansexuality and done lots of labor getting them to come around (with varying amounts of success). I've personally never been pressured to "choose," although I have run into the occasional dim-witted shithead who thinks I've magically become "not-bi" because I'm in a LTR with a cisgender man. (This is one manifestation of the "bi erasure" that Theda mentioned.)

But! If you asked most of my acquaintances my orientation, I bet that at least 70 percent would say "straight" because if I don't explicitly state to everyone that I'm bi/queer, they'll assume I'm straight. Which might be a factor with your own group of friends. 

Definitely that''s one thing I should have mentioned that most of the time the erasure isn't even malicious at all - it' just assuming. I know lots of bisexual women,  for example, in relationships with either straight or bisexual men where either one or both are having their identities erased, completely non maliciously...well until you try and have a voice on queer issues and then people are suddenly shocked and confused. 

[Xray the Enforcer]

Definitely. A fair bit of erasure is simply lack of care, rather than active malevolence. 

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not really sure that it's appropriate for me to be posting on this topic since I'm asexual, but since I date people always assume a sexuality on me.  For the longest time I tried to just say that I was bi (mostly because I thought I was since I didn't know what asexual was), but so often it was met with 'you're just a slut' or 'make up your mind' or 'one day you'll figure out what you really like'.  That brand of biphobia always made me feel so broken and dirty.  Even today, to make things easier I just tell people that I'm a lesbian because that's what they see (I almost never explain asexuality because I don't have the patience and frankly it's too confusing when you're in multiple relationships with people, sometimes more than one at a time) although I know I'm not gay.  I'd just rather say that than anything else because being one or the other would is perceived as being more 'respectable' than being both (or even neither).  

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm not really sure that it's appropriate for me to be posting on this topic since I'm asexual, but since I date people always assume a sexuality on me.  For the longest time I tried to just say that I was bi (mostly because I thought I was since I didn't know what asexual was), but so often it was met with 'you're just a slut' or 'make up your mind' or 'one day you'll figure out what you really like'.  That brand of biphobia always made me feel so broken and dirty.  Even today, to make things easier I just tell people that I'm a lesbian because that's what they see (I almost never explain asexuality because I don't have the patience and frankly it's too confusing when you're in multiple relationships with people, sometimes more than one at a time) although I know I'm not gay.  I'd just rather say that than anything else because being one or the other would is perceived as being more 'respectable' than being both (or even neither).  

Yeah.  Luckily I've never received much negative comment about it other than people just...not taking me seriously and not really...uhhh...believing me. No one has been nasty, but they HAVE been dismissive. 

[brook]

There have been a wave of recent studies that point to the fact that bisexual women (I believe most apply to men too but the ones focused on women are the ones I'm familiar with) are doing significantly worse than either straight or lesbian women across a wide range of different physical and mental health indicators.

The reasons why are almost certainly much more complicated than just saying one group is more or less oppressed than any other but it's pretty clear that the combination of biphobia and erasure (particularly from within the lgbtiq community) and garden variety homophobia is having some pretty devastating effects.

[brook]

I know most people think I'm a lesbian these days, I try and resist that when I can but it's not like there is really a way to weave 'actually I'm bisexual' into most casual conversations.

What is interesting is that, for me, the need I feel to be seen as bi rather than lesbian is purely political - emotionally I really don't care all that much. This is the complete opposite to how I felt when I've been in seemingly hererosexual relationships where I experienced a very real desire to be seen. 

I suspect a lot of that is related to how much harder it is to access and find acceptance in lgbtiq spaces and friendship groups as a woman dating a man.

[Theda Baratheon]

7 minutes ago, brook said:

I know most people think I'm a lesbian these days, I try and resist that when I can but it's not like there is really a way to weave 'actually I'm bisexual' into most casual conversations.

What is interesting is that, for me, the need I feel to be seen as bi rather than lesbian is purely political - emotionally I really don't care all that much. This is the complete opposite to how I felt when I've been in seemingly hererosexual relationships where I experienced a very real desire to be seen. 

I suspect a lot of that is related to how much harder it is to access and find acceptance in lgbtiq spaces and friendship groups as a woman dating a man.

That's a really interesting point actually  - how much space is given to you if you're a bisexual woman in a relationship, dependant on the gender of the partner...I see a LOT of bisexual women on various internet groups I'm in who say they feel like they can't speak up in queer spaces because they aren't SEEN as LGBTQ+ whereas bisexual women in relationships with women don't tend to have this particular problem associated with bi-erasure (though I'm not saying you don't face other biphobic stuff) 

[Yukle]

On 11/27/2017 at 1:03 AM, Xray the Enforcer said:

[mod] Before I answer I want to make something very clear: the primary goal of this thread is a support thread for LBGTQ+ people. It is not here for cis/straight people to talk to each other about the LGBTQ+ experience, nor is it here so that cis/straight people can play 1,000 questions with LGBTQ+ people. 

As such, while I will let the above question stand -- because Yukle asked in a polite manner, in what appears to be good-faith, and with the clear indication that answering was optional -- if I feel that this thread is becoming hostile to the very people it is supposed to serve, or if I feel that cis/straight people are taking up all the air in the room, I will step in for some active moderating. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in abiding by the goals of this particular thread. [/mod]

That's fair, it's insensitive now I've time to read over it.

I'm sorry for that.

In my head the question was also meant to include the following bit of contrition: surely there are more bisexual people in my life than I am aware of, and while it's not my business to pry, I just feel letdown that, for whatever reason, they seem so invisible. As someone who is in the "norm" (which I use because I can't think of a better word), I know it must be something I, and we, are doing.  Which is what I don't want to do.

In short, I want to make sure that however I'm acting, I'm ensuring that people can be themselves, including sharing or withholding as much of themselves as they want to, but by choice, not because of social pressures.

Edited to add: I think there's a huge element of responsibility on me, personally, not just a someone who represents "married with children" but also as me, just as me, to act so that no one need to feel that they cannot be themselves.

Certainly, I have never had, nor will I likely ever face, judgement for who I am based on my sexuality. And I know that, for all of the advances that my society has made in accepting people who are gay more than they used to (but, obviously, still not enough) it just seems implausible to me that bisexuality could be so rare as to be essentially absent from my life.

The conclusion? It must be something that I'm doing. Which I need to stop.

@Xray the Enforcer, @Theda Baratheon, @brook @Dr. Pepper; Thanks for sharing. It's given me a fair bit to think of, especially subtle things I don't think I'd otherwise notice.

[karaddin]

On 11/27/2017 at 1:03 AM, Theda Baratheon said:

I absolutely want to point out that, not to cause any division or anything, but that gay people are just as guilty of this as straight people: ''oh what percentage are you? Just pick one! You're greedy!'' and all sorts of other nasty things.

I've spoken with Brook about this a fair bit, and while I'm sure that there is still a significant amount of biphobia from straight people, its not really what hurts when its from them. The lower key erasure? Sure, but the consciously, explicitly excluding kind? When straight people are going to be shit to a queer person, they tend to just go with homophobia. Its other queer people that deploy biphobia in the particularly harmful way, especially seeing as its coming from the people you likely feel like you should be more able to trust.

And its not like I don't understand a lot of the anxieties that lurk behind much of it when directed from Lesbians towards bisexual women, but that doesn't make it OK to act on those anxieties. Just to be clear I'm talking in the general sense here as well, not in the specific sense of my own relationship/being shitty to a partner that is bisexual.

On 11/27/2017 at 3:18 AM, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm not really sure that it's appropriate for me to be posting on this topic since I'm asexual, but since I date people always assume a sexuality on me. 

You still have your romantic attraction that very much places you within a queer context in society. Even if you don't want to explain that to every random person who won't get it, it more than qualifies you to be speaking in this thread even if asexuality didn't (and given the relatively small group that would put their hand up for either group, I'd certainly welcome you on that basis too).

On 11/27/2017 at 7:36 AM, Theda Baratheon said:

That's a really interesting point actually  - how much space is given to you if you're a bisexual woman in a relationship, dependant on the gender of the partner...I see a LOT of bisexual women on various internet groups I'm in who say they feel like they can't speak up in queer spaces because they aren't SEEN as LGBTQ+ whereas bisexual women in relationships with women don't tend to have this particular problem associated with bi-erasure (though I'm not saying you don't face other biphobic stuff) 

It's also worth mentioning that in terms of numbers this is going to be a significant, if not vast, majority of bisexual women as well. When you combine the societal pressures against being visibly queer (which you have to break through to be in a committed relationship with another woman), plus the internal biphobic stigma that discourages so many bisexual women from seeking romance within the queer community, then add the far far greater number of potential romantic partners of the opposite sex (all the straight population) compared to of the same sex (just the queer population) you get a whole lot of things that encourage bisexual women into opposite sex relationships. Which then cements any feelings of alienation from the queer community that deters them from future exploration. Even those who are out as bisexual will continue to be seen as straight the majority of the time as X said, due to simple assumptions from their partner, regardless of their wishes.

Other than when someone like me is doing the assessment, I optimistically rate about....half the women I see as queer I think haha.

But yeah, as Brook said - all the stats on this speak far louder than words could. Health and mental health outcomes for bisexual people clearly show the stigma against specifically bisexuality, as distinct from general stigma against same sex relations, does significant harm. And the lack of visibility for those that want it is a part of that, I know when I thought I was a bisexual guy that that was weighing on me very heavily - the need to actually be seen instead of what people assumed of me. So if you can find a way to make yourself more receptive to friends sharing that with you @Yukle or noticing it, that's a noble goal. That may not be easy to do in a way that isn't hamfisted though. On a related note I get...frustrated isn't the right word, but I feel similarly that in my very large extended family there must be other queer people and I'm sad the only one I know of is my Aunt who is dead. I only realised what could have been when she had breast cancer (this was back when I was still in all the closets with my family)

[Xray the Enforcer]

That's a lot of good stuff, K. Articulated some of what I was trying to get at way, way better than I actually did.  

I've been thinking a lot about the mechanisms that discourage women from talking about their orientation or gender identity, in part because I'm noticing a ton of erasure in my workplace, but just for women. Like, we have out gay dudes all over the place, but we do not have a similar percentage of out lesbians or bisexual women. I mean, I get it -- we've all fought incredibly hard to not get creeped on by a bunch of predatory dudes at work and that includes never, ever talking about basic personal stuff (because that's totes our way of saying we want yon dipshits to send us dick pics, amirite ladies?!), but it also means that it's incredibly difficult to find other queer women allies, even if they work in the next goddamned cubicle. 

[TerraPrime]

I haven't followed the board for a while and just now caught up in this thread. Much love to all my peoples. <3 

Last week, I started a conversation with an FtM individual on the kink board I post on, and he challenged me that despite how I see myself as trans-friendly, my actions do not match it. Specifically, he pointed out how my description of my sexuality is very trans-exclusionary. 

And he was/is right. 

 

So now I've been deep in the weeds for a few days now wrestling the gnarly conflagration of sexuality, sexual attraction, indoctrinated gender presentations, masculinity, and the definition of homosexuality. This process has so far been pretty difficult and challenging, and also quite exciting. I feel that despite having been in the LBGT community since forever, I have been really forced to confront my own unexamined defaults about trans individuals on the topic of sexual partners. 

 

This whole process was a quick reminder to myself that I have so much baggage of my own to unpack, and also, how insidiously subtle a lot of these preconceived notions are in controlling our world views. 

[Rippounet]

This article seems kind of relevant to the current discussion:
http://time.com/5026092/mostly-straight-sexual-identity-bisexual-gay/
 

[Xray the Enforcer]

9 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

 This whole process was a quick reminder to myself that I have so much baggage of my own to unpack, and also, how insidiously subtle a lot of these preconceived notions are in controlling our world views. 

 I cannot speak for you, but I can totally speak for myself and hoooooo-yes.

[karaddin]

That subconscious stuff can really dig its roots in much deeper and influence our behaviour long after we've consciously changed our world view. Recognising it when challenged and embarking on the hard work of changing it is not the first impulse response of most, but its the key to self improvement and the measure of the person. It feels a bit dickish to say this, given that, but I'd suggest using "trans man/guy/etc" over "FtM" these days. It's part of picking terminology that emphasises our identity rather than our transition. At the very least it stops other people who don't know you as well from making assumptions about what you think.

X - I've known for a long time that there are a lot of other queer people in my office, but the recent vote here had my initially feeling quite isolated in that I wasn't seeing it impact many others the way I was feeling it. Particularly the day the court denied the challenge to it going ahead. Over time though, the subtle things scattered around the office - a guy I had no prior indication of being queer putting up cocktail size pride flags along the edge of his desk etc, hearing from others about some other queer people in the office I didn't know about, and then overhearing someone else I'd wondered about but didn't know for sure (she's taller than me and has a sticker on her desk for a soccer team with a rainbow name "Glamazons" that she plays in....so yeah) ranting about the vote after the christmas party has all reversed that. I know I'm lucky to have that much visible around me though.