Theda Baratheon Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 21 hours ago, Rippounet said: This article seems kind of relevant to the current discussion:http://time.com/5026092/mostly-straight-sexual-identity-bisexual-gay/ This article kind of annoys me because again it just seems pretty biphobic to me. People don't want to call themselves bisexual because it' themselves gay sounding even themselveoohugh being bisexual is pretty nuanced and doesnt mean a 50/50 split of attraction. It's these stigma's run being bisexual that adds to this problem of people feeling other and outsiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said: This article kind of annoys me because again it just seems pretty biphobic to me. People don't want to call themselves bisexual because it' themselves gay sounding even themselveoohugh being bisexual is pretty nuanced and doesnt mean a 50/50 split of attraction. It's these stigma's run being bisexual that adds to this problem of people feeling other and outsiders. So -having read the article- are you saying that people who are open to bisexuality but who have never actually acted on it (or very little) should just identify as bisexual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rippounet said: So -having read the article- are you saying that people who are open to bisexuality but who have never actually acted on it (or very little) should just identify as bisexual? Well that would include me in a way... Women who like men but who have never had sex with a man are allowed to call themselves straight or are assumed to be heterosexual so why can't I as a woman who has never had sex with a woman call myself bisexual, you know? I DON'T want to enforce a sexuality on anyone. However - I do think that part of the anxiety and reluctance to call oneself bisexual comes from misrepresentation of what bisexuality even is. "Not gay enough to be bisexual" - an idea that bisexuality is a 50/50 split. When it's not. Why DO we have to put percentages on everything, you know? I don't think bisexual even has to describe a gender binary. It's just a weird, messy strange territory between gay and straight and I think it needs to be widened and developed. I hate the 50/50 split idea. But I do think there is so much stigma around bisexuality and that feeds into this idea of people NOT wanting to be associated with it. If you're bisexual - you're greedy, you can't choose, you're a slut - all sorts of nasty shit. And people internalise that. It's easier sometimes to pretend you're not bisexual. To not have to deal with those nasty preconceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 And mostly straight??? Just seems like bisexual to me or somewhere in that realm and it's internalised biphobia to want to get as far away from that label as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Ok, point well taken. I see what you mean now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 I definitely do not think one has to have acted on sexual attractions at all to label oneself as gay, straight, or bisexual. I have one acquaintance who proudly calls herself bisexual though she is in a long term heterosexual marriage and has never had sexual contact with anyone with her husband. At the same time, if we are going to use the terms "straight", "bi", and "gay", you have to let people draw their lines somewhere. It would seem overly strict to insist on "bisexual" only being used for those who have an exactly 50/50 split in their attractions. But on the other hand, in the article most of the young men who were interviewed seem to say that 10% or less of their attractions are to other men. It seems to me that "bisexual" might not be the best term for that mix. 10% is the figure which seems about the threshold for most people thinking something is significant, at least in those cultures that use Arabic numbers. Almost everyone who identifies as primarily heterosexual or gay/lesbian has had some fleeting attraction or fantasy about a person of the gender they are not usually attracted to. I myself identify as a gay man -- I remember one time, over 40 years ago, when I was sexually attracted to a waitress in a restaurant. I don't think that makes me "bisexual". If you say ever having one attraction in your life to your non-preferred gender makes you "bi", you are basically saying that EVERYONE is bisexual, which is a Freudian theory I don't think works well in describing how the human mind actually works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Side note, and coming from a straight guy, but... I've participated in condom distribution for many years. During training, we're advised that there is a significant group of men who have sex with men but do not self-identify as gay or bisexual. Nevertheless, these men are considered to be a priority target group when it comes to condom use. The problem is, if your messaging is directed towards gay or bi men, these particular men are likely to ignore it. For that reason, in that context, we don't use the terms 'gay' or 'bi' but instead talk of 'MSM', men who have sex with men. So there are definitely contexts where labeling attraction or sexual activity can be more complex than 'gay', 'straight' or 'bi'. I would never tell someone how to identify, but human sexual behaviour seems to be more complex than a small number of labels can capture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 41 minutes ago, Ormond said: I definitely do not think one has to have acted on sexual attractions at all to label oneself as gay, straight, or bisexual. I have one acquaintance who proudly calls herself bisexual though she is in a long term heterosexual marriage and has never had sexual contact with anyone with her husband. At the same time, if we are going to use the terms "straight", "bi", and "gay", you have to let people draw their lines somewhere. It would seem overly strict to insist on "bisexual" only being used for those who have an exactly 50/50 split in their attractions. But on the other hand, in the article most of the young men who were interviewed seem to say that 10% or less of their attractions are to other men. It seems to me that "bisexual" might not be the best term for that mix. 10% is the figure which seems about the threshold for most people thinking something is significant, at least in those cultures that use Arabic numbers. Almost everyone who identifies as primarily heterosexual or gay/lesbian has had some fleeting attraction or fantasy about a person of the gender they are not usually attracted to. I myself identify as a gay man -- I remember one time, over 40 years ago, when I was sexually attracted to a waitress in a restaurant. I don't think that makes me "bisexual". If you say ever having one attraction in your life to your non-preferred gender makes you "bi", you are basically saying that EVERYONE is bisexual, which is a Freudian theory I don't think works well in describing how the human mind actually works. I'll admit - I got a bit irritated with the article and didn't read that far to see the under 10% figure. I think it's still complicated and like I said I would absolutely never force a sexuality on anyone else or tell them who they are or how they feel. I still think part of the problem described in think the article stems from both biphobia and homophobia though. But I'll have o actually read the whole thing and think about it more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brook Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 There have been a wave of those "mostly straight" type articles over the last few years and I find it hard to articulate my feelings about them in a way that doesn't come across as either over simplistic or confused. I absolutely believe in self-identification, and that there is a tremendous amount of variation in sexual and romantic desire and behaviour that mean attempts to break things into neat categories are doomed to fail. There is value in looking at people who identify and behave in a way that challenges the way we understand sexuality and exploring how they understand their own identities. But I also think we need to question why they might come to understand themselves in a particular way and the impact of homophobia and biphobia can't just be handwaved away. I think we can point out and challenge the influence that has on the way people identify while still accepting the right to and validity of self-identification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brook Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Also just putting it out there * Far less than 10% of my attractions are to men and even less of the ones where that attraction translates to genuine desire. Still Bisexual. * I identified as straight for many years while knowing I was attracted to and occasionally having sex with women. I followed that period by flirting with the idea that maybe I was a lesbian with some romantic attraction to men. Internalised biphobia is very real and it absolutely does impact on identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 On 16/12/2017 at 9:36 AM, brook said: * I identified as straight for many years while knowing I was attracted to and occasionally having sex with women. I followed that period by flirting with the idea that maybe I was a lesbian with some romantic attraction to men. Internalised biphobia is very real and it absolutely does impact on identity. I'm not sure it's biphobia so much as social convenient labelling. I regard myself as straight, have never had sex with a man (and probably never will), but I am honest enough to recognise that I have experienced same-sex attraction at the id level. It's just that, as I am very unlikely to act on it, and I obviously prefer to have sex with women, it is more convenient to describe myself as heterosexual, even though it isn't 100% accurate. Silly question - for the purpose of the thread, does crossdressing count as queer? I don't personally identify as queer (as mentioned, I regard myself as straight, and I am not transgender, being entirely comfortable in my masculinity). I do, however, crossdress from time to time (I find it liberating), and it's not as if we sad transvestites have our own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brook Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: I'm not sure it's biphobia so much as social convenient labelling. Yeah thanks but I know what I felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily Valley Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 On 12/28/2017 at 6:22 AM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: Silly question - for the purpose of the thread, does crossdressing count as queer? I don't personally identify as queer (as mentioned, I regard myself as straight, and I am not transgender, being entirely comfortable in my masculinity). I do, however, crossdress from time to time (I find it liberating), and it's not as if we sad transvestites have our own thread. brook already handled the problematic bit of this quote. RBPL, please make sure you clarify that you are talking about YOUR experience. As to the bolded, get thee a FetLife account. There are lots of discussion groups for transvestites. Some of the people on FetLife are great and some are truly awful (just like real life), but after a bit of practice it's pretty easy to find groups and people with common interests. Best of luck to you. On 12/15/2017 at 2:36 PM, brook said: Also just putting it out there * Far less than 10% of my attractions are to men and even less of the ones where that attraction translates to genuine desire. Still Bisexual. * I identified as straight for many years while knowing I was attracted to and occasionally having sex with women. I followed that period by flirting with the idea that maybe I was a lesbian with some romantic attraction to men. Internalised biphobia is very real and it absolutely does impact on identity. My attraction and romantic interests have been wildly influenced by things like hormones, weather and current events. Mostly lately I just have soooooo little patience for straight men's expectations of women and especially the women they date. I mean, are people seriously wearing a strapless dress and heels in this fucking weather? Seriously? It's colder than fucking Mars in parts of North America right now. I know @brook and @karaddin recall a recent straightish-attracted period that I had which was DEFINITELY hormone related and I swear to God I had a massive identity crisis. I really felt like I was just NOT ME ANYMORE. This was after agonizing for decades about coming out. Agonizing for decades over internalized homophobia and misogyny. I tend to be very forward and aggressive and I did not hit on girls for a long, long time because I felt like I was pressuring them into doing something naughty / dirty / shameful. I finally got over that and still felt like I wasn't "gay enough" to have a girlfriend of my very own. I still struggle. I still have a lot of pain and I still deal with moments of terror and social anxiety. Biphobia is crippling to people like me. I jumped on the term "QUEER" a slur I battled as a kid just because it was more appealing to me than bisexual. It runs that deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 People thought I was nuts when I said I was not disclosing being trans to my current healthcare provider, and would not permit previous medical records to be forwarded. I think the link below justifies that decision. https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/16/conscience-abortion-transgender-patients-health-care-289542 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said: People thought I was nuts when I said I was not disclosing being trans to my current healthcare provider, and would not permit previous medical records to be forwarded. I think the link below justifies that decision. https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/16/conscience-abortion-transgender-patients-health-care-289542 Any thought I had of you being overly paranoid have been left in 2016. Along with my belief in a good or sane world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 You have no idea how much I wish I was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I get my healthcare through a system where everything is on electronic files. Which I guess is helpful, but those files appear to be completely available for just about any employee of the system. Even the phlebotomist can see the entire record of everything I've talked about with therapists. I actually thought about that today as I was getting labwork done. I wonder if this person drawing my blood is a bigot and will do something to harm me because they think they're protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 TBH, the medical group of which my doctor is affiliated, seems to have a reasonable view of things. Their intake form allows one to select male, female, trans (mtf), trans (ftm), or intersex. I suspect my doctor would not be a problem, but I have no way of knowing who in that organization has access to my records, and if any who did was one of my neighbors. I didn't permit the transfer of my previous medical records, which contained the very information I wanted to suppress. I'd been forced to disclose it to my healthcare provider in Los Angeles when I needed to get the required documents to get my legal name/gender change, which circumstances forced me to do. Even if I'm successful in keeping that information out of my current records, the government still has that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivin Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 We're gonna be fine. Nothing has been done yet that isn't reversible and public opinion is massively in our favor. Bannon's power is effectively non-existent. The bathroom persecution projects never made it past NC. The Republicans are shattering in front of our eyes after looking like they might emerge stronger for Trump. The core institutions have held. And most importantly we're all still here to fight. I will hope for you Robin. Because the things your generation went through to make me able to bear hope are far too impressive to let a rind colored mistake and history's biggest case study of overplaying your hand (Nazis) think they can destroy the legacy so many of our brothers and sisters who were killed in the streets to secure be destroyed. We're going to make it. Even if it's just the gals and guys of this thread holed up in a drain somewhere in the Montana wilderness. As long as we're still here, we're going to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 16 hours ago, WinterFox said: We're gonna be fine. Nothing has been done yet that isn't reversible and public opinion is massively in our favor. Bannon's power is effectively non-existent. The bathroom persecution projects never made it past NC. The Republicans are shattering in front of our eyes after looking like they might emerge stronger for Trump. The core institutions have held. And most importantly we're all still here to fight. I will hope for you Robin. Because the things your generation went through to make me able to bear hope are far too impressive to let a rind colored mistake and history's biggest case study of overplaying your hand (Nazis) think they can destroy the legacy so many of our brothers and sisters who were killed in the streets to secure be destroyed. We're going to make it. Even if it's just the gals and guys of this thread holed up in a drain somewhere in the Montana wilderness. As long as we're still here, we're going to make it. WF, I read the above, and wondered why we have such a different view of the world. I think there are two reasons. If one depends on public tolerance and acceptance, they have to see some things as encouraging. If they didn't, I imagine life would be pretty depressing. On the other hand, I've always worked under the premise that if if people don't know that I am what they hate, I'm safe. My need to see the world in a more positive light, isn't as great (not that what I see doesn't have an impact on me). My reliance is on my ability to remain undetected, rather than any hope the world will improve. The second thing is probably a generational and circumstantial thing. I'm from an era when the concept of self-reliance ruled. There was no such thing as a trans community. (Don't laugh, but I didn't know one existed until 2012.) So, my survival was primarily my responsibility. In 2014, I attempted to connect with the community. I attended a conference hosted by the Transgender Law Center, participated in protest rallies at Los Angeles City Hall and elsewhere. Sadly, I realized that the community and I wanted different things. So I went my own way. BTW, this isn't my usual advertisement for living stealth. It takes its toll, after a while. Imagine wondering if anyone knows, but hasn't let on, every day. Imagine a constant internal conversation on what you would like to do, vs. what you feel you must do for your own safety. Yes, we do have a plan to get out if the US gets worse, but we also have a second plan in the event there is evidence of any real improvement. Stay safe, everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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