The new Justice League trailer

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Have you guys seen it? Trailer 

(Batman vs Superman spoilers below)

On the one hand, I want to love the Justice League movie. The time I did read comics as a kid, I was reading DC, and I loved the Justice League. I was pulled in during the Death of Superman era, and not long after Grant Morrison rebooted the league with the originals. Superman, Flash, Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern--I can't remember if Hawkgirl was part of Morrison's reboot or that was the cartoon. Either way, the focus on the original heavy-hitters of DC's universe was so much fun to me after years of Booster Gold and Blue Beetle.

The new trailer really makes me want to love this movie, but the bad taste of Batman vs. Superman--among other things--have me worried. First, Cyborg over Martian Manhunter just about makes it impossible for me to come at this from a positive frame of mind. Mostly because David Goyer who does most of the screenplay writing for Warner Bro's DC movies says shit like this:

"  “How many people in the audience have heard of Martian Manhunter?” Cheers and applause. “How many people that raised their hands have ever been laid?” "

 

Martian Manhunter was always a favorite of mine. The fact he could probably beat Superman in a fight inspired my imagination as a kid. I was always like, "where was HE during the Doomsday fight?" (or any of the original Justice League). Of course MM was actually in the Doomsday fight back in the 90s, but that's a digression. Either way, he is a beloved character, and all of the reasons given as to why he's not in the new lineup fall flat for those of us who want him there. He is integral and you can't remove him. Oh, I guess Cyborg adds racial diversity--or so the argument goes--but hell, keep Cyborg (who looks awful in CGI, by the way) and add in MM. Hell, do what Supergirl did and make J'onn's human appearance another race. Brilliant. Do the same with Green Lantern and you suddenly actually have a diverse cast of heroes.

Cavill's Superman is less inspiring every time I think about him, and we know he's going to come back for a big "heroic moment" in this, but I don't think he can pull it off. Or perhaps it's Zack Snyder who can't.

If I can say a good thing though--Wonder Woman was great in BvS, and she looks even better in this, and her movie looks good too. I really want a good Justice League movie, but I'm really worried the job has been screwed up beyond repair. 

Here is some more Goyer wisdom on Martian Manhunter:

“He can't be fucking called the Martian Manhunter because that”s goofy. He can be called Manhunter[…] I would set it up like 'The Day After Tomorrow.' We discover one of those Earth-like planets… So maybe like… we get the DNA code from that planet and then grow him in a petri dish here… He's like in Area 51 or something and we're just basically… doing biopsies on him. Then he gets out and he's really angry and he fucks She-Hulk.”

[Relic]

Looks like straight poop. 

[polishgenius]

I didn't know about Goyer's stance on MM. What a dickhead. I also miss Plastic Man: I'm aware he's not an original member but I grew up alongside Grant Morrison's run (and later Mark Waid's) so he's a big part of it to me. Anyway, one hopes that Geoff Johns can mitigate Goyer-and-Snyder's more annoying tendencies (the hiring of Reeves for Batman and the rumour of Matthew Vaughn for MoS2- please oh please let that happen- suggests that WB are looking at directors more consistent with the kind of thing Johns writes, which could well be his influence being felt with the supposed increase in his role after BvS/Suicide Squad).

Anyway this looks a bit of a mess and I'm not sold on the idea of Steppenwolf as a lead-in to Darkseid- I'd much rather some other part of DC's vast cosmology ran into Earth and it turned out they were running from Darkseid, I'm not writing it off yet- Snyder's not a bad director, and the seeming relative simplicity of the plot could play to his strengths- but it's not an awesome start.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Is this the first trailer Ive been unable to finish?! If I felt this way about a trailer imagine how much I'm going to hate the movie.

Seriously though, it seems that rather than listening to criticism, Snyder has instead doubled down on everything that he does badly.

Desaturated colourised images - Check
Slow mo / speeded up action sequences that feel so unreal you don't care - check
Everything looks like a computer game - check

Its been said a hundred times, but do they honestly think they can just introduce all these characters into one movie and do any of them 'justice' ;). No they can't. Aquaman and cyborg are pretty crappy characters anyway, but at least give them a chance by giving them some room, rather than shoving them in. 

Only one sequence in that whole trailer looked any good and it was WonderWoman fighting in what appeared to be NOT a green screen shot (it probably still was though) 

I hope this movie crashes and burns.
 

[generalzod]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Looks like straight poop. 

 

15 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Is this the first trailer Ive been unable to finish?!

That pretty much covers it. 

 

(And despite all that, I hope its good despite all the mounting evidence of likely poopdom and previous work by Zack since 300.)

[polishgenius]

16 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its been said a hundred times, but do they honestly think they can just introduce all these characters into one movie and do any of them 'justice' ;). No they can't. Aquaman and cyborg are pretty crappy characters anyway, but at least give them a chance by giving them some room, rather than shoving them in. 

I've never really been behind this argument: when fitting this many characters into a two-hour film some of them are going to take priority over others whether they've had previous films or not, it doesn't really matter if the other characters get their room to grow before or after. It's not as if ensemble films don't happen in other genres all the time without setup, why are the rules different for superheroes?

I'm just not at all convinced that this film is going to do it right.

[Myshkin]

As a totally disinterested party, I find it hilarious that they seem to still be banking hard on all the same elements that reportedly made the previous movies complete garbage.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

42 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I've never really been behind this argument: when fitting this many characters into a two-hour film some of them are going to take priority over others whether they've had previous films or not, it doesn't really matter if the other characters get their room to grow before or after. It's not as if ensemble films don't happen in other genres all the time without setup, why are the rules different for superheroes?

I'm just not at all convinced that this film is going to do it right.

Its totally possible they could make it work. Obviously looking at how Marvel did it, you have to say they created the ideal model. Avengers worked because there was no need for individual origin stories, the work had already been done. Looks a bit like they are going to have to introduce each new character in JL. Reminds me of Suicide Squad which was a disaster IMO

[polishgenius]

8 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its totally possible they could make it work. Obviously looking at how Marvel did it, you have to say they created the ideal model. Avengers worked because there was no need for individual origin stories, the work had already been done. Looks a bit like they are going to have to introduce each new character in JL. Reminds me of Suicide Squad which was a disaster IMO

Yeah, but the problem is that they introduced the characters badly, not that they introduced them at all. No-one watches at Ocean's 11 wishing there was an origin movie for Linus, or demands a Lettie boot-up for The Fast and the Furious.

Sure, the Marvel model works and worked for them really well, but it's just as possible to mess that up, as DC already managed when they tried Green Lantern. The problem is that DC aren't thinking it out at all, apparently.

Like, I dunno if you've read Geoff Johns' introductory Justice League post New-52, but it's exactly the sort of thing you'd need for this. Essentially a new bunch of characters and a new League, introduced all at once, and it works fine. Obviously different mediums but the concept and potential pitfalls are the same and Johns handles it fine. That story, with a bit of tweaking, could easily have been ported over to be the backbone of this story here.

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, but the problem is that they introduced the characters badly, not that they introduced them at all. No-one watches at Ocean's 11 wishing there was an origin movie for Linus, or demands a Lettie boot-up for The Fast and the Furious.

Sure, the Marvel model works and worked for them really well, but it's just as possible to mess that up, as DC already managed when they tried Green Lantern. The problem is that DC aren't thinking it out at all, apparently.

There's also Guardians of the Galaxy which would be an example where Marvel successfully introduce a large cast without really spending much time on an origin story for anyone other than Starlord. At least in this they'll already have spent a movie each on Batman and Wonderwoman beforehand.

That said, I agree with the scepticism that DC are going to pull this off. I thought Affleck as Batman worked a lot better in BvS than I was expected, Wonderwoman looks good and The Flash looks OK from what we've seen of him, but I'm less convinced about the other two, particularly Cyborg whose special effects work seemed a bit dubious. I know there will be more trailers to come, but so far there's not been much indication of a plot which is worrying given how much of a weakness that has been in previous DC films.

Mostly because David Goyer who does most of the screenplay writing for Warner Bro's DC movies says shit like this:

"  “How many people in the audience have heard of Martian Manhunter?” Cheers and applause. “How many people that raised their hands have ever been laid?”

I don't know how old this quote is, but I'd think the Martian Manhunter is probably better known now than a couple of years ago given that he's been appearing in pretty much every episode of a reasonably popular superhero TV series.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Yeah I guess you are right, It's totally possible to introduce these characters and make it work. I just have zero confidence they will be able to do it, going on past evidence. 

 

Have to say all of the effects work in that trailer was pretty weak. It all seems flat and done on a computer. I really don't know why anyone thinks that is an attractive aesthetic. At no point can you get lost in ththe illusion because you are made aware of the artificiality of the shot. 

[Knight of Ashes]

I'll root for it, wth.  If it's a stinker, then may a bad Justice League movie be the worst thing that happens in our lifetime.

[Kalbear]

Jason Momoa looks like he's having such a blast in this role. 

[PetyrPunkinhead]

I dig the whole vibe of this trailer. It reminds me of a DCEU version of the first Avengers film--and that's a good thing. However, I'm trying to reign in my expectations for this one because DC has delivered a kickass trailer before and left me hanging on the actual film. (I'm looking square at you Suicide Squad.)

I also like that there's zero Superman in this trailer. I hope we don't see him until the third act or last scene of the film, really. 

[Jaxom 1974]

I'm usually forgiving...but this looks awful.  

I mean, I loved everything about Affleck's Batman except the movie he was in...

DC continues to show me they're just not that good at movies...they're much better at television...

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Yeah...it looks awful...but we're still all going to watch it, right? I mean...it's likely the only JL movie we'll get for the next 10-20 years.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

9 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I didn't know about Goyer's stance on MM. What a dickhead. I also miss Plastic Man: I'm aware he's not an original member but I grew up alongside Grant Morrison's run (and later Mark Waid's) so he's a big part of it to me. Anyway, one hopes that Geoff Johns can mitigate Goyer-and-Snyder's more annoying tendencies (the hiring of Reeves for Batman and the rumour of Matthew Vaughn for MoS2- please oh please let that happen- suggests that WB are looking at directors more consistent with the kind of thing Johns writes, which could well be his influence being felt with the supposed increase in his role after BvS/Suicide Squad).

Anyway this looks a bit of a mess and I'm not sold on the idea of Steppenwolf as a lead-in to Darkseid- I'd much rather some other part of DC's vast cosmology ran into Earth and it turned out they were running from Darkseid, I'm not writing it off yet- Snyder's not a bad director, and the seeming relative simplicity of the plot could play to his strengths- but it's not an awesome start.

 

Plastic Man always seemed like he would be lame, but I think Morrison just made every hero a lot of fun and interesting. Some of the newer moves for DC as you mentioned for the Batman movie and the second Superman movie give me a glimmer of hope too--though, I wouldn't be adverse to Affleck directing Batman either. 

Steppenwolf seems like a real D-lister. So many interesting things could have led in to Darkseid. Hell, Superman's cartoon did an interesting job of slowly building up to it--and I think Steppenwolf was mentioned in passing. Maybe. But I don't think Snyder or Goyer give too much of a crap about these stories. If Doomsday had been done correctly, you could have had a Reign of the Supermen and then the Cyborg Superman storyline led Doomsday straight to Darkseid--though, I suppose Darkseid's first appearance shouldn't be getting overwhelmed by Doomsday. Still, so many options are on the table. I like your idea of having the threat in the first movie as a villain/set of villains running from Darkseid. How interesting. The Justice League forms--barely scrapes by with said foe--only to find out the foe was running from something much worse.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Simon Steele said:

Yeah...it looks awful...but we're still all going to watch it, right? I mean...it's likely the only JL movie we'll get for the next 10-20 years.

THIS. That said, I'll probably skip seeing it in the theatre unless the buzz is really good. 

[red snow]

4 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

Yeah...it looks awful...but we're still all going to watch it, right? I mean...it's likely the only JL movie we'll get for the next 10-20 years.

I used to think they were filming part one and two back to back but it does appear they've got cold feet and rescheduled the sequel for after the Batman film which is hilarious given how badly that film doesn't seem to want to be made.

My main gripe with the trailer was that Cyborg's face looked like it had been digitally attached with similar finesse to one of those online "stick a photo of you on a pigeon-on-a-bike ecard animations". I can only hope that is still being worked on as I'll be dragged out of the film whenever he's on screen.

the music didn't work with it - it just slowed down an already lethargic trailer. I can see why they did it as the current formula seems to be "stick an old rock/pop song over a film and people like it". Clearly there's more to the formula.

I'm with those who don't buy the griping over there not being introductory films for the entire league. They have done lead in films for Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. An argument could be made for the Flash but it's not essential. Cyborg and Aquaman need the exposure of this film to help them have solos not the other way around. Hawkeye only got a cameo prior to Avengers and arguably the Hulk franchise would have fared better if his solo film had came along after Avengers (although it really sounds like there's an issue with paramount over Disney solo Hulk films).

12 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, but the problem is that they introduced the characters badly, not that they introduced them at all. No-one watches at Ocean's 11 wishing there was an origin movie for Linus, or demands a Lettie boot-up for The Fast and the Furious.

 

I'm sure the recent Magnificent Seven film would have performed much better with individual lead in films too. It's the usual trap people fall into - a bit like the "a TV show would work better". Most times the reality is that a talented screenwriter (whose work isn't then butchered by changes from rewrites, producers and directors) could easily craft a 2- 2.5 hour movie with a large cast and big plot.

I don't really want a hollywood where it takes half a dozen movies before i get an A-team or a Spock, Bones and Kirk solo film before. Imagine how tedious Star Wars would be? Although it looks like Star wars will eventually bore us with solo-film spin offs instead.

For those who are upset about the lack of Martian Manhunter you can pretend he's Superman and that Supes is still in his coffin doing gravel push-ups. We should check to see how he is around flames and whether he does things other than flying and strength.

[Myrddin]

As someone who really liked MoS, enjoyed BvS for the most part, and thought SS was a waste of time, I was underwhelmed by the trailer.

There were "cool" moments, sure. But it looks all over the place. The mono chrome palette fit BvS, but here it's just dour.

I'd love to say something uplifting like: "I hope Flash and Aqua Drogo can breath fresh life into this." But casting was never the issue with these movies. They've cast the Big Three very well. It's the direction and story that is lacking.

This releases a week after Thor Ragnarok (in the US anyway). It'll be interesting to see where people put their money.