ASoIaF cliche about siblings

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Almost all siblings in ASoIaF have completely opposite character. But thing is that gods always kill the good one. Imagine what would happen if Brandon Stark became leader of Stark or Dorne was ruled by Oberyn. Even Joffrey could be more useful against sparrows than Tommen.

• Ned-Brandon
• Daenerys-Viserys
• Sansa-Arya
• Bran-Rickon 
• Cersei-Tyrion  
• Doran-Oberin 
• Joffrey-Tommen
• Catelyn-Lysa
• Sandor-Gregor 

[Canon Claude]

Robert-Stannis and Renly-Stannis too

[Adam Yozza]

In what world is Viserys the good one. Also Tywin and Tygett or Gerion refutes your argument, as do Hoster and the Blackfish. And we have no idea if Brandon would be a better leader than Ned; Oberyn being a good leader is laughable and I'd rather have Tommen as King over Joffrey any day. Also, you use Tyrion-Cersei, Sansa-Arya and Bran-Rickon as example's, ignoring the fact that neither are dead and it will be the less talented ones of them that die (Cersei, Sansa, Rickon) if any of them do.

[Kienn]

Yea I'm not sure why some people are so driven to make these kinds of generalizations...

Many of the examples listed here even break it.

[Renly's Banana]

You're right, the gods did take Renly too soon, blessed be his memory our prince that was promised. Now we're stuck with his inferior teeth-grinding brother. 

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

You're right, the gods did take Renly too soon, blessed be his memory our prince that was promised. Now we're stuck with his inferior teeth-grinding brother. 

Renly was a disloyal brother who was seen as unfit to rule by pretty much everyone who wasn't sleeping with him. Olenna Tyrell, Maester Cressen, Donal Noye, Ned and Cateyn Stark. He was a pompous man who was only in it for himself.

Stannis, meanwhile, nearly died defending Storm's End for his brother, and did his duty no matter what. He has his flaws, sure, but frankly, I find him (A) one of the most fascinating characters of the series, and (B) one of the only ones I'd actually feel comfortable seeing become king. He defended the realm from a threat that nobody acknowledged, and rather than bother trying to play the game of thrones, he's concerned with defeating the Others at the Wall. He's earning his kingship through deed and action. Stannis is a truly just man, and that terrifies people like Cersei, Varys, and Littlefinger. Again, he's hardly a perfect man, but if he was, he wouldn't be as interesting. He's done bad things, but who hasn't in this series? Even Arya's becoming a trained murderer.

Murdering Renly by shadow-baby ranks high among Stannis' crimes, but the ones who cry hardest about that always seem to ignore the fact that Renly was going to slay his brother anyway. Stannis just became a kinslayer before Renly had the chance to do so.

[White Ravens]

Renly would not likely have been looked upon as a kinslayer, though.  He was planning to meet Stannis in open battle and anticipated that Stannis wouldn't survive the conflict.  Killed in battle and secretively assassinated by sinister shadow-baby aren't equivalent actions. 

[Lord Lannister]

34 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Renly would not likely have been looked upon as a kinslayer, though.  He was planning to meet Stannis in open battle and anticipated that Stannis wouldn't survive the conflict.  Killed in battle and secretively assassinated by sinister shadow-baby aren't equivalent actions. 

I love it when people claim thousands of people dying in a battle is somehow more moral than a single person being assassinated.

[Renly's Banana]

48 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Renly would not likely have been looked upon as a kinslayer, though.  He was planning to meet Stannis in open battle and anticipated that Stannis wouldn't survive the conflict.  Killed in battle and secretively assassinated by sinister shadow-baby aren't equivalent actions. 

This. Renly gave him a fair chance and time to get ready for battle. And if Stannis did die, he commanded his body not be disturbed. And what does Stannis do? Sneaky dark magic at night when Renly's unprepared to cheat him out of a fair fight. Shameful. Dishonorable. Stannis is most certainly not "the Mannis." He robbed us of the prince that was promised. smh

Also I wanna dispel this myth that he went to help the Wall out of some grand concern for humanity and his great foresight about the Others.
Dude went up there cause he had nowhere left to go and was desperate for reinforcements.

[James Steller]

21 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Dude went up there cause he had nowhere left to go and was desperate for reinforcements.

So he went to the one place that was more desperate for reinforcements than he was?

[White Ravens]

51 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I love it when people claim thousands of people dying in a battle is somehow more moral than a single person being assassinated.

GRRM is very good at muddying the ethical waters sometimes.  But sinister magic used secretively by Melisandre apparently without Stannis' knowledge or approval does not smack me as particularly moral. 

 

Edit:  I don't hate Stannis overall.  I just find this one act quite dark and evil.

[Lord Lannister]

6 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

GRRM is very good at muddying the ethical waters sometimes.  But sinister magic used secretively by Melisandre apparently without Stannis' knowledge or approval does not smack me as particularly moral. 

 

Edit:  I don't hate Stannis overall.  I just find this one act quite dark and evil.

Oh without a doubt it's a situation where no one comes out clean. No one ever does in a war. I do find it odd that "sinister magic" is often used as a charge against Stannis as well though. Had Davos snuck into Renly's camp and cut his throat would that have somehow been better? Given his strategic position, if he was going to advance his claim he had to make his own rules rather than walking into a scenario that favored Renly or Joffrey.

[khal drogon]

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

Renly was a disloyal brother who scaleen as unfit to rule by pretty much everyone who wasn't sleeping with him. Olenna Tyrell, Maester Cressen, Donal Noye, Ned and Cateyn Stark. He was a pompous man who was only in it for himself.

Stannis, meanwhile, nearly died defending Storm's End for his brother, and did his duty no matter what. He has his flaws, sure, but frankly, I find him (A) one of the most fascinating characters of the series, and (B) one of the only ones I'd actually feel comfortable seeing become king. He defended the realm from a threat that nobody acknowledged, and rather than bother trying to play the game of thrones, he's concerned with defeating the Others at the Wall. He's earning his kingship through deed and action. Stannis is a truly just man, and that terrifies people like Cersei, Varys, and Littlefinger. Again, he's hardly a perfect man, but if he was, he wouldn't be as interesting. He's done bad things, but who hasn't in this series? Even Arya's becoming a trained murderer.

Murdering Renly by shadow-baby ranks high among Stannis' crimes, but the ones who cry hardest about that always seem to ignore the fact that Renly was going to slay his brother anyway. Stannis just became a kinslayer before Renly had the chance to do so.

People who thinks Stannis is unfit to rule vastly outnumbers people who thought Renly was unfit to rule. Even Baratheon vassal lords supported him over Stannis. It seems you are reducing Renly to make Stannis seem acceptable.

I feel uncomfortable having him as a king because of the religious fanaticism he encourages. Even in the wall he burns weirwoods and forces people to give up their beliefs. If he had won the throne somehow during Blackwater imagine the Faith resistance he would get now. He would be toppled by his own people if he did anything against their Faith. Stannis will be a disaster for the realm. 

He defended the realm thanks to Davos and I am glad he is the moral compass which Stannis doesn't have within himself. He is a just man but also merciless who would kill anyone who he feels traitorous. Even his sense of justice is flawed. For example people who burn people in the name of religion is acceptable to him but people who don't agree to accept him as king deserves death. 

He is interesting because he is a broken man who is breaking further and getting corrupted and I can't wait to see what he descends into. But one thing is sure he would make a terrible terrible ruler.

 

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Oh without a doubt it's a situation where no one comes out clean. No one ever does in a war. I do find it odd that "sinister magic" is often used as a charge against Stannis as well though. Had Davos snuck into Renly's camp and cut his throat would that have somehow been better? Given his strategic position, if he was going to advance his claim he had to make his own rules rather than walking into a scenario that favored Renly or Joffrey.

 

The only reason  people charge Stannis with using sinister magic is because giving birth to shadows that kill at your bidding is sinister.

[Tralalala]

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

Renly was a disloyal brother who was seen as unfit to rule by pretty much everyone who wasn't sleeping with him. Olenna Tyrell, Maester Cressen, Donal Noye, Ned and Cateyn Stark. He was a pompous man who was only in it for himself.

Stannis, meanwhile, nearly died defending Storm's End for his brother, and did his duty no matter what. He has his flaws, sure, but frankly, I find him (A) one of the most fascinating characters of the series, and (B) one of the only ones I'd actually feel comfortable seeing become king. He defended the realm from a threat that nobody acknowledged, and rather than bother trying to play the game of thrones, he's concerned with defeating the Others at the Wall. He's earning his kingship through deed and action. Stannis is a truly just man, and that terrifies people like Cersei, Varys, and Littlefinger. Again, he's hardly a perfect man, but if he was, he wouldn't be as interesting. He's done bad things, but who hasn't in this series? Even Arya's becoming a trained murderer.

Murdering Renly by shadow-baby ranks high among Stannis' crimes, but the ones who cry hardest about that always seem to ignore the fact that Renly was going to slay his brother anyway. Stannis just became a kinslayer before Renly had the chance to do so.

.I disagree,Renly would've been a better king than Stannis, and btw there are no just people in asoiaf books,Stannis only seems like it but he's not.

[Trigger Warning]

I don't really think most of those are what I'd call "opposites". 

They're just different. 

[Adam Yozza]

To all those claiming that Stannis knowingly sent an assassin after Renly, go and read Davos' first chapter after it happens. It's chapter 42 in Clash I always got the impression that Stannis knew nothing about it until afterwards. Now, I'm not saying Stannis is a perfect person; quite far from it actually, given that he's allowed people to be burned alive and sending the shadow after Penrose was deliberate; but I don't believe Renly's death can be counted against him.

@khal drogon The Baratheon vassals in the Stormlands followed Renly because 1) He was their liege lord and 2) He was charming, handsome and young, good at making people like him, which Stannis wasn't. That does not equate to being a good King. Stannis has his faults, yes, and the religious unrest that follows him is the worst but remember that the Seven following King's Men outnumber the R'hllor following Queen's Men, and always have. He did burn the Sept at Dragonstone and the Godswood at Storm's End, which would cause problems if he did this across Westeros. But he wouldn't. He didn't burn the Sept's at Driftmark, Claw Isle or any of the Stormlands castle's. He didn't burn the Night's Watch Sept, or the Godswood north of the wall and he's not burned any religious iconography between Castle Black and the Crofters Village.

@prcxfo On what grounds do you base this statement of? Because Renly has never done anything even remotely Kingly.

@Renly's Banana No he went because Davos brought the Watch's plea for help to his attention. He didn't know about the Others so you're right that wasn't the reason. But he knew about the Wildlings and he went there to stop them.

 

[Tralalala]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

@prcxfo On what grounds do you base this statement of? Because Renly has never done anything even remotely Kingly.

Opinion no grounds or anything else,what kingly thing has Stannis done btw? Other than holding storm's end which was his obligation at that time and participating in the greyjoy rebellion which was also his obligation?I prefer Renly for king before Stannis and his vaunted justice.

[khal drogon]

9 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

To all those claiming that Stannis knowingly sent an assassin after Renly, go and read Davos' first chapter after it happens. It's chapter 42 in Clash I always got the impression that Stannis knew nothing about it until afterwards. Now, I'm not saying Stannis is a perfect person; quite far from it actually, given that he's allowed people to be burned alive and sending the shadow after Penrose was deliberate; but I don't believe Renly's death can be counted against him.

@khal drogon The Baratheon vassals in the Stormlands followed Renly because 1) He was their liege lord and 2) He was charming, handsome and young, good at making people like him, which Stannis wasn't. That does not equate to being a good King. Stannis has his faults, yes, and the religious unrest that follows him is the worst but remember that the Seven following King's Men outnumber the R'hllor following Queen's Men, and always have. He did burn the Sept at Dragonstone and the Godswood at Storm's End, which would cause problems if he did this across Westeros. But he wouldn't. He didn't burn the Sept's at Driftmark, Claw Isle or any of the Stormlands castle's. He didn't burn the Night's Watch Sept, or the Godswood north of the wall and he's not burned any religious iconography between Castle Black and the Crofters Village.

@prcxfo On what grounds do you base this statement of? Because Renly has never done anything even remotely Kingly.

@Renly's Banana No he went because Davos brought the Watch's plea for help to his attention. He didn't know about the Others so you're right that wasn't the reason. But he knew about the Wildlings and he went there to stop them.

 

Maybe he didn't know the manner of his death before but he certainly knew Renly would die the night before the battle. He showed belief in Mel's words that he would win even with a massive numerical disadvantage and he had ritual sex with Mel. It's not too hard to assume he knew Mel will cause Renly's death. His guilt reinforces this idea again.

Baratheon vassal lords and other vassal lords supported a person who had no claim to the throne over an elder Baratheon brother. He is really charismatic enough to do that. I disagree that making people like you doesn't make a good king. That quality is very important for a king. In fact that quality is what kept Robert's realm stable till he ruined his reputation as a whoremonger. Charisma and likeability will bring stability on the other hand coldness and mercilessness will bring unrest and instability. If Renly could act as a respectable figurehead and even if his advisors did everything for him then he would be considered as a good king.

He didn't burn a few septs doesn't mean anything. He still encourages burning of people and religious figureheads. He still endorses Red religion. He still has a flaming heart in his banner. This along with his unlikable personality would cause much stronger people's movement against him.

Compared to Stannis, Renly auto wins the better king argument by not being Stannis. The arguments made for why Renly would make a bad king are usually less supported speculative arguments than the arguments made for why Stannis would make a bad king. Stannis might make a good benevolent dictator(which I don't believe) based on some arguments made by people but he will not make a good monarch.

 

[Adam Yozza]

9 hours ago, prcxfo said:

Opinion no grounds or anything else,what kingly thing has Stannis done btw? Other than holding storm's end which was his obligation at that time and participating in the greyjoy rebellion which was also his obligation?I prefer Renly for king before Stannis and his vaunted justice.

Saved the Night's Watch? I'm of the opinion that saving one seventh of the Kingdom from an invasion of wildlings they were utterly unprepared for is something a King should do. Furthermore, while on the Small Council Stannis actually served well and did his job. Renly didn't. He didn't take any of his responsibilities seriously either as Lord of Storm's End, Master of Laws or as King.

1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

Maybe he didn't know the manner of his death before but he certainly knew Renly would die the night before the battle. He showed belief in Mel's words that he would win even with a massive numerical disadvantage and he had ritual sex with Mel. It's not too hard to assume he knew Mel will cause Renly's death. His guilt reinforces this idea again.

Baratheon vassal lords and other vassal lords supported a person who had no claim to the throne over an elder Baratheon brother. He is really charismatic enough to do that. I disagree that making people like you doesn't make a good king. That quality is very important for a king. In fact that quality is what kept Robert's realm stable till he ruined his reputation as a whoremonger. Charisma and likeability will bring stability on the other hand coldness and mercilessness will bring unrest and instability. If Renly could act as a respectable figurehead and even if his advisors did everything for him then he would be considered as a good king.

He didn't burn a few septs doesn't mean anything. He still encourages burning of people and religious figureheads. He still endorses Red religion. He still has a flaming heart in his banner. This along with his unlikable personality would cause much stronger people's movement against him.

Compared to Stannis, Renly auto wins the better king argument by not being Stannis. The arguments made for why Renly would make a bad king are usually less supported speculative arguments than the arguments made for why Stannis would make a bad king. Stannis might make a good benevolent dictator(which I don't believe) based on some arguments made by people but he will not make a good monarch.

 

From the chapter we get from Davos after Renly's death I got the impression that Stannis didn't know Renly would die beforehand. Mel told him that he would win Renly's armies and win the battle and that can be interpreted in a lot of ways. He may have believed that the Stormlords would switch sides during battle and bring him victory. He might have only realized what she actually meant when he learned of Renly's death.

I didn't say it wasn't a quality a King should have. It absolutely is. But I don't think that one trait is grounds to say someone would make a good King. What would Renly do if he took the Iron Throne and then the Targaryen's invaded? He is by no means a talented or experienced military commander, his accession to the Throne would essentially make laws of inheritance obsolete, as Master of Laws we see him time and time again not taking his duties seriously and nothing we see from him in Clash indicates that this changed. He would be nothing more than a figurehead, much like Robert in his later reign and we see how that ended; crippling debt and a King who just ignored problematic issues. Renly; with his great love of feasts and tourney's, would only serve to make the economy of Westeros even worse. Stannis on the other hand is an extremely skilled commander and is someone who would absolutely take his duties as King seriously enough. He would never skip a Small Council meeting, he'd never brush aside uncomfortable issues and he wouldn't pick his council based on rank and influence (Mace Tyrell as Hand of the King? That's one of the worst choices in the Seven Kingdoms!) but on merit. Sure he also has his faults; he's not good at making himself liked, the religious issue and the fact that he's only got a female heir being the main ones, but on the whole his pro's vastly outweigh Renly's and his cons are about the same on comparison.

As for the religious issue, him not burning all Sept's and Godswood's does matter. It shows that he's not going to force his (or, more accurately, his wife's) religion on the rest of the world. As long as he doesn't allow Melisandre to burn people for following a different faith and doesn't start burning down religious places left, right and center like some people seem to think he does, then there shouldn't be any massive uprising's against it.