Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan

[Voice]

On 4/8/2017 at 11:07 AM, JNR said:

Because of how neatly it fits with this:

There are some notable details missing from your Wall construction site reconstruction, but I'll cite them in that thread, as it appears to be unlocked.

[Black Crow]

Heresy 200, if we are spared, will feature an extended OP reprinting all of the bicentennial essays, but I'm currently two short.. If necessary I can sort out OPs for 198 and 199 myself, but rather than listen to the sound of my own voice I would like to invite some new or newish features. Please PM me if you would like to contribute.

[JNR]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

rather than listen to the sound of my own voice I would like to invite some new or newish features

If you want to explore a topic that hasn't seen much traffic in Heresy... and concerning which there's quite a good chance the established dogma is wrong... how about the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

It's the longest "tale" in the series by far, full of interesting details, sure to be relevant to the big picture of the series in some sense, and subject to different interpretations.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

If you want to explore a topic that hasn't seen much traffic in Heresy... and concerning which there's quite a good chance the established dogma is wrong... how about the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

It's the longest "tale" in the series by far, full of interesting details, sure to be relevant to the big picture of the series in some sense, and subject to different interpretations.

I actually think that's a great idea, because I also believe it's when time got reversed...the False Spring returning to winter.

[Black Crow]

So who's offering?

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

If you want to explore a topic that hasn't seen much traffic in Heresy... and concerning which there's quite a good chance the established dogma is wrong... how about the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

It's the longest "tale" in the series by far, full of interesting details, sure to be relevant to the big picture of the series in some sense, and subject to different interpretations.

Conventional thinking is Lyanna was the knight of the Laughing Tree.  Does anyone have an alternative that makes sense?  We can speculate it was any other character that was alive at the time, unless they were elsewhere or seen together,  but that isn't much discussion unless there is relevance.  E.g. I could say Jeor Mormont was Knight of the Laughing Tree,  and no one could disprove me, but there is nothing to discuss. 

I would be interested in theories about the False Spring , but don't have any myself. 

[JNR]

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Conventional thinking is Lyanna was the knight of the Laughing Tree.  Does anyone have an alternative that makes sense?

Well, that depends on what "sense" means, but really, this is Heresy.  We're all about unconventional thinking.

IMO, yes, there are good alternatives; I can think of several offhand.

Lyanna has numerous problems as a candidate.  Usually they are just ignored or glossed over because people are convinced this was the flower-scented, Hollywoodian Meet Cute in which she and Rhaegar originally hooked up... even though, of course, that is flatly contradicted by the canon, which states plainly that the dragon prince never found the Knight.

[Melifeather]

37 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

So who's offering?

I actually wrote an opinion piece about who I thought the KotLT was before. I could revise it and add to it. When do you need it?

[Brad Stark]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, that depends on what "sense" means, but really, this is Heresy.  We're all about unconventional thinking.

IMO, yes, there are good alternatives; I can think of several offhand.

Lyanna has numerous problems as a candidate.  Usually they are just ignored or glossed over because people are convinced this was the flower-scented, Hollywoodian Meet Cute in which she and Rhaegar originally hooked up... even though, of course, that is flatly contradicted by the canon, which states plainly that the dragon prince never found the Knight.

If you can think of several good candidates off hand,  can you post them?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Howland

Ned

Benjen 

Jaime

Singing brother of the Watch

[JNR]

And of course anybody can post reasons why those candidates are problematic, but we could also post reasons why Lyanna is problematic.  There simply is no obvious or perfect solution to this mystery, as GRRM intended.

But any way you slice it, this is always something people take sides on and want to discuss. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I actually wrote an opinion piece about who I thought the KotLT was before. I could revise it and add to it. When do you need it?

Useful to have it to follow on this one. Its moving fairly slowly right now so probably no need to break your neck.

[LynnS]

I'm sorry, I haven't been able to work on Part II the Hinges of the World since my mother went into the heart institute.   If someone could jump in and fill the gap, that would be really nice.   

[Black Crow]

Don't worry about it. Your mother is far more important. 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If you can think of several good candidates off hand,  can you post them?

To approach this question from another angle, I think it might also be valuable to question what the story value is in having a particular character be the KoLT.

For example, it's not implausible to suggest that the KoLT could have been Eddard - he'd have the appropriate training, and the motive to defend one of his Father's bannermen - but beyond plausibility, what's the story appeal? Why hide Eddard's identity as the KoLT from the reader? If the point of the story is to demonstrate Howland and Eddard's friendship, it seems odd that the KoLT's identity would be left out of the tale, as conveyed by the Reeds.
_____

With that in mind, the two candidates I always go back to are, I'm sorry to say, the most "boring" candidates: either Howland or Lyanna.

With Howland as the KoLT, the story functions less as a mystery, and more as a parable; arguably, from that point of view, the identity of the KoLT isn't something that will be revisited. Instead, it stands alone as a tale where a mystery knight that is evocative of the Old Gods exacts karmic justice on the three squires--maybe it really was Howland, maybe it was some unnatural assistance sent from the Isle of Faces, and it's up to Bran (and the reader) to take what they will from the tale.

Lyanna...well, everyone knows the arguments for and against Lyanna, and how that's assumed to play out as a revelation.

The one other candidate I see some appeal for is Benjen. The same motives that apply for Eddard and Lyanna also apply for Benjen, with the added layer that we don't seem to have the full story yet with Benjen. If I'm not mistaken, there's a SSM where GRRM says we'll eventually learn why Benjen joined the Watch, so there may be important aspects of Benjen's story at Harrenhal that we're missing out on.

[JNR]

27 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

beyond plausibility, what's the story appeal?

Great question.  Also worth asking: What's the appeal for Howland, to have told this story to his children over and over?  What would he expect his children to take away from it, based on different answers?

Closely related to this is what his kids actually do think.

It's often said in the forums that the Reeds are surprised Bran has never heard this tale, but that's not actually the case.  One of them seems to think the mystery knight was Howland, and doesn't seem surprised at all.  It's the other one, who possibly leans Lyanna, who presses Bran about what Ned told him.

This tells me that Howland likely told the story exactly as we hear it.  His kids don't know the answer; they were forced to draw their own conclusions just as we are, and they haven't drawn the same conclusions, just as we haven't.

And that's what makes it possible for Meera to rattle the whole thing off so easily -- she's doing it nearly verbatim as she heard it.  She doesn't have to think about what's next, or rephrase the content.  It comes to her as easily as song lyrics come to us.

[Melifeather]

Well, if everyone can refrain from discussing the Knight of the Laughing Tree until the next Heresy, I will submit an essay for consideration. Lets try to finish up the current topic of Old Nan stories first though, shall we?

We've lightly touched on the idea/theory that some of her stories are actually premonitions for Jon Snow and the Stark kids. The most evidence that has been presented so far is for how much of Jon's story fits the Nights King. There was also some discussion of Bran fitting the boy who climbed too high and was struck by lightning, and how Arya may have fit the man held prisoner in a castle by a giant. I happen to think Sansa could also fit the man being held in a castle by a giant, because Littlefinger would be a good fit for the giant. He's currently my favorite to be the giant in armor made of stone in Bran's dream:

quote

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Littlefinger has been manipulating behind the scenes and he's good at covering up his trail. The Titan of Braavos is his family's ancestral sigil, which could account for the "giant", and then the dark, empty visor full of black blood could be symbolic of the deaths Littlefinger is responsible for, but for which he has yet to be blamed. But I digress...I just wanted to establish that Littlefinger could be the giant in Old Nan's tale, and Sansa is being held in a castle...the Eyrie. Not exactly against her will, but she is hidden in disguise as Littlefinger's daughter, Alayne.

quote - Old Nan's tale:

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood.

If Sansa tricks Littlefinger and escapes the Eyrie, will she die as soon as she's outside the castle?

[Melifeather]

Here's another Old Nan's tale that came to life at Winterfell:

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

When the flames were blazing nicely Meera put the fish on. At least it's not a meat pie. The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. "It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."

 

From the wiki:

Wyman leaves White Harbor to attend the wedding of Ramsay to "Arya Stark" with an armed escort. Before doing so, he gifts his three Frey guests a palfrey each; guest gifts are given to guests when they leave their host's protection, meaning they are no longer under the protection of guest right. With him, Manderly brings a huge supply of food to Ramsay's wedding at Winterfell, but he brings no hostages, which unsettles Lord Roose Bolton, Ramsay's father and the new Warden of the North.

The three Freys do not arrive with Wyman. He claims they rode ahead of him, being that he cannot ride a horse and instead travelled the White Knife by boat. The knights Hosteen and Aenys Frey suspect Manderly of foul play. At the wedding feast the jolly Wyman calls out songs for Abel to sing. He serves three huge pies himself, the first portions to Roose and Walda Bolton and the next to the sons of Lord Frey, Hosteen and Aenys. Wyman declares,

“The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords. Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.”

Wyman asks Abel to sing of the Rat Cook, probably to make violators of guest right uncomfortable. Roose does not eat or drink anything unless he sees Wyman taste it first.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I happen to think Sansa could also fit the man being held in a castle by a giant, because Littlefinger would be a good fit for the giant.

Interesting case.  The giant with stone armor is another reference that does seem enigmatic to me, even now (the Mountain as candidate seeming too obvious and his armor insufficiently stony).

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

He serves three huge pies himself, the first portions to Roose and Walda Bolton and the next to the sons of Lord Frey, Hosteen and Aenys. Wyman declares,

“The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords. Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.”

Wyman as Rat Cook parallel is open-and-shut, definitely.

[Brad Stark]

52 minutes ago, JNR said:

Wyman as Rat Cook parallel is open-and-shut, definitely.

Frey pies are different.  Wyman knew the tale of the rat cook and intentionally replicated it.  If Sansa escaped a castle of giants or Bran climbed too high, these tales fit without anyone in the book trying to make them fit.