Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan

[JNR]

Wyman consciously applied his knowledge of the story to achieve a personal goal, that's true enough.

[JNR]

On 3/25/2017 at 2:23 PM, Black Crow said:

Chapter 64, Arya

I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan’s stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos.

She has already seen the last.  Odds seem favorable she will see the first. 

How about the second one?  I wouldn't rule it out...

Quote

There's a story in the books about a horn that can raise krakens from the deep. Will we ever see a kraken?

(Martin looks surprised by the question.) Possibly.

 

[JNR]

On 3/25/2017 at 2:25 PM, Black Crow said:

In Old Nan’s stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn’t see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. “I bet the old gods sent him.”

This story should probably be brought up again in the KotLT thread(s).  GRRM conspicuously gave us the info in it more than once:

On 3/25/2017 at 2:25 PM, Black Crow said:

“Was he green?” Bran wanted to know. “Did he have antlers?”
The fat man was confused. “The elk?”
“Coldhands,” said Bran impatiently. “The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too.”

 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

She has already seen the last.  Odds seem favorable she will see the first. 

How about the second one?  I wouldn't rule it out...

 

Yeah, but the tone of GRRM's response doesn't really suggest it will be a significant encounter if it happens. Perhaps just another sign and portent that things are getting nasty

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

This story should probably be brought up again in the KotLT thread(s).  GRRM conspicuously gave us the info in it more than once:

 

Yes I quite agree, and much as I'd like to plunge in I concur that it needs to wait for Feather's Knight of the Laughing Tree essay because there may indeed be a connection if we approach the knight with an open mind

[Muttering Ed]

On 4/6/2017 at 0:48 PM, Black Crow said:

I agree as to the tragic hero. The story of the Nights King is of course MacBeth translated into Westerosi and the degree of character assassination that went into Mr Shakespeare's production should warn us against taking Old Nan's version too literally. 

It's interesting for example that the white lady is never referred to as a white walker or as an Other. There is that reference to her as his corpse Queen, but the World Book gamely suggests a connection to the Barrow Kings. Of itself that's at least plausible but I'm still more inclined to look at Brandon the Breaker breaking the Stark connection to Winter and a Nightfort which predated the Nights Watch and where people with starry blue eyes were once honoured guests. 

I'm a bit surprised that no one else has mentioned it here, but I always felt the Night's Queen was more likely to be some form of wight rather than a white walker. Imagine someone like a Ms. Coldhands, if you will, in league with (or servant of?) the CotF.  If she had once been a woman that the NK knew, I could easily see him riding off into the forest with her, perhaps to consult with the CotF, and the legend grows that they spend time together because they are in love. What happens if Jon's lovely Val faces a similar fate? Would Jon spurn poor Val if she came to him with black hands and cold skin?

On a similar track, I also believe that a big part of the supposed Pact between First Men and the CotF was agreement to blood sacrifice to the weirwood trees. If all magic is blood magic, what keeps the weir-net (and the old gods) alive and functioning? Men agreed to serve the trees, and the NK may have just been honoring this pact when he was accused of sacrificing children. I love Old Nan's stories because it's so easy to see alternate possibilities through misinterpretation or deliberate deception down through the ages. The winners (or the survivors) were the ones who got to write the history.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Muttering Ed said:

On a similar track, I also believe that a big part of the supposed Pact between First Men and the CotF was agreement to blood sacrifice to the weirwood trees. If all magic is blood magic, what keeps the weir-net (and the old gods) alive and functioning? Men agreed to serve the trees, and the NK may have just been honoring this pact when he was accused of sacrificing children. I love Old Nan's stories because it's so easy to see alternate possibilities through misinterpretation or deliberate deception down through the ages. The winners (or the survivors) were the ones who got to write the history.

Ah well that's always been one of the big questions asked in Heresy; what was demanded by the three-fingered tree-huggers in return for "helping" the Last Hero?

[Brad Stark]

So far we've seen our 3 fingered friends as the good guys being oppressed by the invading First Men.  I think we are going to find them sacrificing men and maybe even that they started the conflict.   I think we may also see several factions of Children fighting each other. 

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

So far we've seen our 3 fingered friends as the good guys being oppressed by the invading First Men.  I think we are going to find them sacrificing men and maybe even that they started the conflict.   I think we may also see several factions of Children fighting each other. 

Different factions of CotF fighting, or at least in conflict, with each other is a popular theory, but thus far we really haven't seen any evidence of it and on the contrary the hive mind of the old gods would tend to rule against it.

On the other hand I do agree that reading them as innocent victims is far too simplistic. Blood and sacrificial offerings doesn't appear to be an abstract concept.

[wolfmaid7]

Nice to see we still around Time to read up.

[JNR]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yeah, but the tone of GRRM's response doesn't really suggest it will be a significant encounter if it happens. Perhaps just another sign and portent that things are getting nasty

Perhaps, but he might also have been surprised to be asked that  because he is in fact planning a TWOW chapter in which a kraken makes a significant appearance, and wasn't expecting such a dead-on question.

For instance, imagine a wighted kraken.   Dead things in the water, Cotter Pyke wrote. 

From a TWOW sample chapter we have this:

Quote

"And krakens off the Broken Arm, pulling under crippled galleys," said Valena. "The blood draws them to the surface, our maester claims. There are bodies in the water. A few have washed up on our shores.

It seems quite possible to me...

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Ah well that's always been one of the big questions asked in Heresy; what was demanded by the three-fingered tree-huggers in return for "helping" the Last Hero?

That's true.  However, one of the big answers has always been: "They didn't make demands, because they were threatened too.  This is why they were hiding in their underground sanctuaries -- which we know for sure are warded against wights -- and were difficult to find (just like they are now)."

[JNR]

4 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Nice to see we still around

Welcome back!  Place hasn't been the same without you.

Biggest tidbit of late is GRRM's public remark that he expects to finish TWOW this year (with the usual caveat that maybe he won't).

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

This story should probably be brought up again in the KotLT thread(s).  GRRM conspicuously gave us the info in it more than once:

 

 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes I quite agree, and much as I'd like to plunge in I concur that it needs to wait for Feather's Knight of the Laughing Tree essay because there may indeed be a connection if we approach the knight with an open mind

 

Note to self: Include section that addresses Green Men and the Isle of Faces.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Welcome back!  Place hasn't been the same without you.

Biggest tidbit of late is GRRM's public remark that he expects to finish TWOW this year (with the usual caveat that maybe he won't).

It's great to be back.GRRM is killing me with these delays.I got back yesterday and just trying to catch up things.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Muttering Ed said:

I'm a bit surprised that no one else has mentioned it here, but I always felt the Night's Queen was more likely to be some form of wight rather than a white walker. Imagine someone like a Ms. Coldhands, if you will, in league with (or servant of?) the CotF.  If she had once been a woman that the NK knew, I could easily see him riding off into the forest with her, perhaps to consult with the CotF, and the legend grows that they spend time together because they are in love. What happens if Jon's lovely Val faces a similar fate? Would Jon spurn poor Val if she came to him with black hands and cold skin?

On a similar track, I also believe that a big part of the supposed Pact between First Men and the CotF was agreement to blood sacrifice to the weirwood trees. If all magic is blood magic, what keeps the weir-net (and the old gods) alive and functioning? Men agreed to serve the trees, and the NK may have just been honoring this pact when he was accused of sacrificing children. I love Old Nan's stories because it's so easy to see alternate possibilities through misinterpretation or deliberate deception down through the ages. The winners (or the survivors) were the ones who got to write the history.

I respectfully disagree that the Night's Queen was a wight. Wights are basically zombies who shuffle around nearly mindless, with only slight memories of their previous life, and are controlled by an outside force of either the white walkers or the greenseers. They're only active on cold nights and lay dormant during daylight hours. If she was "undead" she would have been more like Coldhands who seems to have retained his wits and can still think rationally and communicate. But IMO the Nights Queen was simply a wildling, probably more like Val or her sister Dalla...maybe even a priestess.

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Nice to see we still around Time to read up.

Nice to see you back in town! You've been gone a long time!

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Perhaps, but he might also have been surprised to be asked that  because he is in fact planning a TWOW chapter in which a kraken makes a significant appearance, and wasn't expecting such a dead-on question.

For instance, imagine a wighted kraken.   Dead things in the water, Cotter Pyke wrote. 

From a TWOW sample chapter we have this:

It seems quite possible to me...

And a frozen one could quite possibly look like a giant ice spider...

[Ser Kinslayer]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well, if everyone can refrain from discussing the Knight of the Laughing Tree until the next Heresy, I will submit an essay for consideration. Lets try to finish up the current topic of Old Nan stories first though, shall we?

We've lightly touched on the idea/theory that some of her stories are actually premonitions for Jon Snow and the Stark kids. The most evidence that has been presented so far is for how much of Jon's story fits the Nights King. There was also some discussion of Bran fitting the boy who climbed too high and was struck by lightning, and how Arya may have fit the man held prisoner in a castle by a giant. I happen to think Sansa could also fit the man being held in a castle by a giant, because Littlefinger would be a good fit for the giant. He's currently my favorite to be the giant in armor made of stone in Bran's dream:

quote

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Littlefinger has been manipulating behind the scenes and he's good at covering up his trail. The Titan of Braavos is his family's ancestral sigil, which could account for the "giant", and then the dark, empty visor full of black blood could be symbolic of the deaths Littlefinger is responsible for, but for which he has yet to be blamed. But I digress...I just wanted to establish that Littlefinger could be the giant in Old Nan's tale, and Sansa is being held in a castle...the Eyrie. Not exactly against her will, but she is hidden in disguise as Littlefinger's daughter, Alayne.

quote - Old Nan's tale:

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood.

If Sansa tricks Littlefinger and escapes the Eyrie, will she die as soon as she's outside the castle?

Interesting take on Littlefinger being the giant. Many people assume the person "armored like the sun" is Oberyn Martell and the giant is Ser Robert Strong. However, I don't see much support for this. After all, the text seems to be talking about shadows that were surrounding New, Arya, and Sansa during their time in Kingslanding. The quote could be foreshadowing, but I think there's more reason to believe these people are related to the events happening in the first GoT books, whereas Oberyn and Ser Robert Strong appear in the story much later.

By the way, I'm a huge fan of heresy and a first time poster. These discussions are great.

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, Ser Kinslayer said:

Interesting take on Littlefinger being the giant. Many people assume the person "armored like the sun" is Oberyn Martell and the giant is Ser Robert Strong. However, I don't see much support for this. After all, the text seems to be talking about shadows that were surrounding New, Arya, and Sansa during their time in Kingslanding. The quote could be foreshadowing, but I think there's more reason to believe these people are related to the events happening in the first GoT books, whereas Oberyn and Ser Robert Strong appear in the story much later.

By the way, I'm a huge fan of heresy and a first time poster. These discussions are great.

Welcome to Heresy. Do post again 

[JNR]

40 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I respectfully disagree that the Night's Queen was a wight. Wights are basically zombies who shuffle around nearly mindless, with only slight memories of their previous life, and are controlled by an outside force of either the white walkers or the greenseers.

One also has to wonder what sort of man would spy a wight and say... in a voice thick with lust... "I'd tap that."

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

And a frozen one could quite possibly look like a giant ice spider...

It could at that.  Very creative.

[wolfmaid7]

15 minutes ago, JNR said:

One also has to wonder what sort of man would spy a wight and say... in a voice thick with lust... "I'd tap that."

It could at that.  Very creative.

I tend to think she was somewhat of a Melissandre contemporary but the reverse.Better yet how Val looked when she returned.

We have to achknowledge when a story teller embelishes a bit.Or suffers from bias based on what they want us to think about a character.

Was this woman really ice cold? the NK's poor dick.Story tellers wanted to make a strong association to the Others that they did.Old Nan just followed suit.I think it would be more pleasant to stick it to Mel than ice queen 2.0.