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Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan


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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Leaf refers to the giants as "our bane and our brothers" so there was either a conflict or at least giants were a threat.  

Strange that we see "brothers" as I'd assume children and giants are as far apart as possible for humanoids and men would be closer to either than they are to eachother.

I read "brothers" in the sense that the [hairy] giants are, like the children and the direwolves, one of the old races. The "bane" simply means that they weren't playing happy families

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

You know, maybe all the bones littering the caves are remnants of sacrifice? The Children believe that when they die they join the godhead, so keeping their bones near the heart tree would be indicative of their desire to be close. I'm thinking it took great numbers of Children in sacrifice to work their magics.

The World Book certainly speaks of large numbers being sacrificed to bring about the Hammer of the Waters. Lesser magic presumably also demands its proportionate sacrifice.

As to the bones that might not be significant in itself but rather the opposite. If X has moved on to become part of the godhead, what are the bones but a discarded coat?

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Leaf refers to the giants as "our bane and our brothers" so there was either a conflict or at least giants were a threat.

Yeah, I read it this way too... meaning a conflict/threat at some point in time.

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Strange that we see "brothers" as I'd assume children and giants are as far apart as possible for humanoids and men would be closer to either than they are to eachother.

This I interpret to mean that before the coming of men to Westeros, the CotF and giants had a dicey relationship, yes... but after the First Men showed up and starting slaughtering both of them, they became brothers in that sense, that they had a common enemy.

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Quick heads up, Heretics. Today is the last day to submit a question for GRRM.

If you are interested, you will need to submit your questions here. Poll begins tomorrow, winning suggestion receives a gift (either an autograph from GRRM, or an amazon gift card). :cheers:

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1 hour ago, Voice said:

Quick heads up, Heretics. Today is the last day to submit a question for GRRM.

Perhaps someone at TLH will submit these questions, if they're of interest:

1. On a scale from 1 to 10, how tired are you of the fans assuming that everything important that happens in ASOIAF must also happen on HBO's Game of Thrones?

2. Suppose the show reveals Jon's parents to be X and Y.  Also suppose you don't intend to reveal Jon's parents until the last book in the series. 

How annoyed would it make you feel if the fans stated confidently, for six or seven years, that HBO had long ago spoiled this mystery in your books?

3. Do you feel that ASOIAF has a central protagonist? If you do, is it a character, or is it Westeros?

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1 hour ago, Voice said:

Quick heads up, Heretics. Today is the last day to submit a question for GRRM.

If you are interested, you will need to submit your questions here. Poll begins tomorrow, winning suggestion receives a gift (either an autograph from GRRM, or an amazon gift card). :cheers:

Whoah. Are you going to meet him? Damn! I'm stuck at work for a while but I will definitely get to looking at this later. 

My first though is the question should be phrased so he has to give an answer, and not just a yes or no or keep reading. He's a tricksy bird. 

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45 minutes ago, JNR said:

Perhaps someone at TLH will submit these questions, if they're of interest:

1. On a scale from 1 to 10, how tired are you of the fans assuming that everything important that happens in ASOIAF must also happen on HBO's Game of Thrones?

2. Suppose the show reveals Jon's parents to be X and Y.  Also suppose you don't intend to reveal Jon's parents until the last book in the series. 

How annoyed would it make you feel if the fans stated confidently, for six or seven years, that HBO had long ago spoiled this mystery in your books?

3. Do you feel that ASOIAF has a central protagonist? If you do, is it a character, or is it Westeros?

You'll have to submit them there, my friend. Our door has always been open. :cheers:

I just formatted 50 questions from people who submitted them appropriately. And there's a whole reddit thread full of great questions that will be left out, save for the few who came to add them at TLH.

But these are fun questions!

1. I don't think GRRM cares about that stuff as much as we might like for him to care about it.

2. HBO doesn't know who Jon's parents are. D&D made a guess regarding Jon's mother, and his mother alone. (Clearly, the last two seasons have taught us that they are relying upon fan theories and speculation in lieu of text. Sharks have been jumped. You don't have to take my word for it, you can ask Benjen/Coldhands, or Sansa/Alys/Jeyne.)

3. Clearly, it's Westeros. A silent, watchful protagonist.

The continent with many hearts. Trees with eyes.

 

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Whoah. Are you going to meet him? Damn! I'm stuck at work for a while but I will definitely get to looking at this later. 

My first though is the question should be phrased so he has to give an answer, and not just a yes or no or keep reading. He's a tricksy bird. 

Yup. I'll be spending some time with him very soon.

And yes! Very tricksy bird. An open-ended question would be ideal. I'll ask as many as I can, but the winner's question will be asked first. :)

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7 hours ago, Voice said:

1. I don't think GRRM cares about that stuff as much as we might like for him to care about it.

Oh, I think he might:

Quote

 

'So when you ask me, 'will the show spoil the books,' all I can do is say, 'yes and no,' and mumble once again about the butterfly effect,' he wrote. 'Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. 

'Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so.'

 

The phrase "once again" is pretty telltale IMO.  He explains over and over, sometimes using butterflies and dragons to make his point and sometimes using Scarlett O'Hara and her children, but nobody ever remembers.

7 hours ago, Voice said:

2. HBO doesn't know who Jon's parents are.

Yeah, I've never been sure they're doing the same parents GRRM is... but lately I'm starting to think they have no plan at all, except to wait for GRRM to finish TWOW and whatever he says it is, do that. 

This, if true, would mean there will be no definitive walkthrough in the coming season.

7 hours ago, Voice said:

3. Clearly, it's Westeros.

I think so too.

But see, in getting him to state this explicitly, it would at a stroke eliminate Jon as the protagonist, which in turn would deal a mortal blow to the concept that Jon is the Song of Ice and Fire.  And that would be quite a feather in the cap for Heretics on all sites.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

He explains over and over, sometimes using butterflies and dragons to make his point and sometimes using Scarlett O'Hara and her children, but nobody ever remembers.

That's interesting. Could you point me in the direction of GRRM referring to that "Scarlett O'Hara and her children", please?

ETA Found. Sorry for asking before Googling

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

The phrase "once again" is pretty telltale IMO.  He explains over and over, sometimes using butterflies and dragons to make his point and sometimes using Scarlett O'Hara and her children, but nobody ever remembers.

Hmm. While that quote from GRRM is a caution against assuming that the show and the books are telling identical stories, it also doesn't exactly align with the self-serving speculative fiction about GRRM and D&D's professional relationship that certain people are peddling, fiction that proposes that GRRM is...withholding information? Lying to D&D?

"Yes and no" explicitly suggests the show will spoil certain things, and when taken with other comments from GRRM that the books and the show are still, in broad strokes, heading toward the same ending, as well as the fact that he genuinely seemed disappointed that he couldn't get TWOW out before season 6, it certainly seems as though GRRM has given the show some sort of broad guidance on future plots--though if the 1993 letter is any indication, an outline from GRRM can change quite a bit, even when its offered in good faith.

I happen to agree that, as a matter of book discussion, we shouldn't declare fan theories canonized just because they've appeared in the show, but as always, some people seem inclined to overcorrect too far in the opposite direction.

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 Among the various departures between book and show; the most curious to me is that Brynden Rivers is referred to as the three eyed raven rather than the three eyed crow.   I wonder why D&D made that choice since there are no references to the three eyed raven in the books at all.    So I wonder what guidance they received on that score.

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For the other perspective of the show/book divergences, here's what D&D had to say about whether season 6 would spoil the books:
 

Quote

“People are talking about whether the books are going to be spoiled — and it’s really not true,” Benioff told EW. “So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that — and I don’t think George is either. People are going to be very surprised when they read the books after the show. They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.”
 

This is, in essence, very similar to the things GRRM has said, and roughly aligns with the way I perceive the show--it differs greatly, while certain "key elements" remain the same. Are issues such as Jon's parentage, the motives of the white walkers, and the ultimate fate of the Iron Throne the sorts of things that would qualify as "key elements," the sorts of things that are more immune to GRRM's tendency toward organic, unplanned plot/character developments?

We can look at what has been adapted thus far, and understand the context for GRRM's "yes and no" answer. Do seasons 3 - 5 of GoT spoil books 3 - 5 of ASOIAF? Yes, and no. It's one thing to know, based on Season 5, that Jon Snow will die, it's quite another to see the far superior execution of that idea played out on the page. I'm sure TWOW will differ greatly from Season 6, but I'm not especially convinced by this line of speculation that GRRM is sharing nothing with D&D.

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8 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

ETA Found. Sorry for asking before Googling

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

No worries.  That's a great entry, actually, because it contains these remarks:

Quote

There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes.

"Huge changes," gradually emerging over time, that he's been talking about since the very beginning of the show. 

And it was two years ago that he wrote that... yet the fans still assume the show and books are the same on all important points.

What can I say?  Other series like HP have put a false idea in their heads, and even GRRM can't get it out. No matter what he says, or how he says it, or how many times.

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

the self-serving speculative fiction about GRRM and D&D's professional relationship that certain people are peddling, fiction that proposes that GRRM is...withholding information?

Well, if you think it's self-serving speculative fiction, you're also asserting that GRRM is the author of that fiction, because he has explicitly said as much in past interviews.

For instance, in this interview:

Quote

Did you tell them where you’re headed with the story?

They know certain things. I’ve told them certain things. So they have some knowledge, but the devil is in the details.

He's told them "certain things." 

They have "some knowledge."

That sure as hell doesn't sound like "I've comprehensively told them everything important."

I think he did what he said -- he gave them broad strokes about character arcs and the overall plot -- but that is far from some sort of comprehensive solution and walkthrough of every major mystery.

In fact, I don't think D&D even recognize that some things are mysteries, or that they will ever provide any sort of explanation, whereas GRRM will.  Example: the weather.

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19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I'm sure TWOW will differ greatly from Season 6, but I'm not especially convinced by this line of speculation that GRRM is sharing nothing with D&D.

Who said he shared nothing?  On the issue of Jon's parentage, for instance, it's public knowledge that:

Quote

He asked us, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”  We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer.  At that point, George didn’t actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell.  We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

So we can interpret that as we see fit.  It's certainly not no information, but it's not the same as "Here are the names of Jon Snow's parents in the books," either.   And it's not enough information to be sure D&D always had a planned specific revelation in this area, and have consistently been executing that plan from season one on.

It might be they've said in some interview that that's the case, though.  If someone ponies up that interview, I'll be happy to accept it.

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49 minutes ago, JNR said:

And it was two years ago that he wrote that... yet the fans still assume the show and books are the same on all important points.

Well, if you think it's self-serving speculative fiction, you're also asserting that GRRM is the author of that fiction, because he has explicitly said as much in past interviews.

For instance, in this interview:

He's told them "certain things." 

They have "some knowledge."

That sure as hell doesn't sound like "I've comprehensively told them everything important."

I think he did what he said -- he gave them broad strokes about character arcs and the overall plot -- but that is far from some sort of comprehensive solution and walkthrough of every major mystery.

I never said that GRRM has comprehensively told them everything, and to be frank, nothing you've raised here contradicts the way I (and many others) interpret the show. "The devil is in the details," in particular, is a perfect summation of the differences, including differences where D&D have plenty of information to adapt from--thus, my comparison of Season 5 vs. books 4 and 5. To use an alternative example, Tyrion's boat ride around Valyria is something that does not happen in the books, yet is still clearly inspired by the Sorrows.

To be repetitive, I have similar expectations about season 6 onwards, and the sorts of information that GRRM has shared with D&D. Perhaps I underestimate GRRM's duplicity, or whatever, but I don't think he's lying (or even purposely withholding important information), so much as that there are certain things he cannot accurately share without having actually written them--look, for example, to the important differences between the way GRRM envisioned Robb dying in his 1993 outline, vs. the Red Wedding of the books.

Everything you quote suggests that we should expect some adaptation changes - many of them major - yet your quotes still demonstrate that GRRM is sharing information, that the show will spoil certain book plots, and from D&D, that the show and books will align on "key elements." A far cry from the "D&D don't know Jon's parents, so they've had to turn to fan theories," speculation being peddled.

It would be far more reasonable to acknowledge that there is no objective standard by which we can pick and choose which plot points come from GRRM and which are invented, nor what specific information he has (and has not) shared in his conversations with the showrunners.

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27 minutes ago, JNR said:

Who said he shared nothing?

To be clear, I'm not saying that you specifically said that, even implicitly--I should have been more clear that I was responding to Voice's sentiment that D&D know nothing, and have had to turn to fan theories to write the show, which I don't find to be a terribly reasonable point of view.

I'm not trying to make a "right/wrong" argument here, I'm advocating for...reason. For moderation--for sound arguments. I believe that, for a variety of reasons, the show might take Jon's parentage in a different direction than the books, but I think there's better ways to make that case than speculating about GRRM and D&D's professional relationship, just as there's better ways to make the case for RLJ than to say "it's in the show, so it must be too important to change."

Edit: I just want to apologize if it seems as though I am targeting you specifically with my criticisms--it's more that we somewhat disagree, and I'm using these posts to also speak toward certain larger trends and arguments that I disagree with, I did not mean to imply that you're guilty of the things I'm criticizing.

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44 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

To use an alternative example, Tyrion's boat ride around Valyria is something that does not happen in the books, yet is still clearly inspired by the Sorrows.

Well, in the books, Tyrion is on a ship when he passes around Valyria (and to say more would be to break the forum rule about discussing the show).  So yes, that really is just a detail.  :D

44 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps I underestimate GRRM's duplicity, or whatever, but I don't think he's lying (or even purposely withholding important information), so much as that there are certain things he cannot accurately share without having actually written them--look, for example, to the important differences between the way GRRM envisioned Robb dying in his 1993 outline, vs. the Red Wedding of the books.

I wouldn't call it duplicity, but I think he always knew that a number of mysteries (not just Jon's parents, which is one of the simpler ones) were going to fool his fans on a mass scale.  And he wanted to be the one to unveil the solutions, not HBO. 

He also always famously assumed his books would beat the show by coming out first.  So I think he simply never told D&D this info.   He believed they would get it reading his books, and there was nothing duplicitous about that.

Well, if that happened, he was wrong.  But I suspect that on realizing the books would not beat the show he still did not tell D&D that info. 

Note that I only say think and suspect.  I don't know; only GRRM can know what, if anything, he held back.  So I agree with this, in full, as stated:

44 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

there is no objective standard by which we can pick and choose which plot points come from GRRM and which are invented, nor what specific information he has (and has not) shared in his conversations with the showrunners

Which also means that while the show is spoiling us in some areas, we can't be sure what they are.

On the particular mystery of Jon's parentage, I've said before that I really have no idea what D&D are doing.  It seems scattered; it lacks the painstaking logical foundation GRRM built, at least as far as I can detect.

So if it turns out that they're doing the same thing as GRRM, and that was always the case, and they always had a consistent plan, and I simply never figured it out... I won't be surprised.  These guys just do not think like I do.  But if (just one possibility) it turns out that GRRM told them Jon's mother, and then he called it a day and said "Wait to read TWOW for more," that won't surprise me either.  Eventually we should find out.

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12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To be clear, I'm not saying that you specifically said that, even implicitly--I should have been more clear that I was responding to Voice's sentiment that D&D know nothing, and have had to turn to fan theories to write the show, which I don't find to be a terribly reasonable point of view.

 

That's a bit of a mischaracterization of what I said, don't you think? I'm not Ygritte. I don't accuse men of knowing nothing. Well, unless it's an orange manchild attempting to build a useless phallic symbol on the southern border... but that is an absurd example.

 

On 4/25/2017 at 11:54 AM, Voice said:

2. HBO doesn't know who Jon's parents are. D&D made a guess regarding Jon's mother, and his mother alone. (Clearly, the last two seasons have taught us that they are relying upon fan theories and speculation in lieu of text. Sharks have been jumped. You don't have to take my word for it, you can ask Benjen/Coldhands, or Sansa/Alys/Jeyne.)

 

I stand by what I (actually) said.

D&D have never stated that GRRM told them who Jon's parents are. And it is quite obvious that they are relying upon fan theories for show content.

For example, Benjen=Coldhands is an old, discredited theory, and even a cursory comparison of Sansa's show/book plots should make this plain. D&D have Sansa doing all sorts of things that fans have imagined her doing, in great detail, on these very forums.

And if you don't believe Sharks have been jumped while riding the wave of fan fiction, you must have completely skipped the Sandsnakes and obsidian ex machina.

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GRRM should stop railing against 'fan fiction' and start writing.  

He jealously guards his ideas, so I wouldn't be surprised if everything is the reverse of what we expect -- all except the Hodor reveal...no way D&D could've thought of the causal time loop by themselves.

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2 hours ago, Voice said:

And it is quite obvious that they are relying upon fan theories for show content.

Not especially. Very little of Season 6 reads to me as "Fan theory driven;" indeed, they seem to be actively refusing to give the Westeros.org and reddit crowds what they want: no Sandor and Robert Strong interactions, no grand plan from Doran, no purpose to Daario's existence (much less an interesting alternative identity), no Hellhorn, no payoff for the Faceless Men theories, no Jon-resurrected-as-Targaryen/Azor Ahai, no Stoneheart, no secret identity for the High Sparrow, nothing mind-blowing with Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne, no character progress for Jaime, no crazy Blackfish theories playing out...and so on and so on.

No, a Season 6 adapted from fan theories certainly would have been its own brand of bad, but the show mostly just seems like D&D's badness to me. Much of it is incompetence, but some of it is (IMO), an attempt to wrangle the disparate plotlines of AFFC and ADWD together into more unified narratives--eg, Brienne and Sansa's AFFC/TWOW plotlines are jettisoned in favor of bringing them under the umbrella of the Winterfell story.

They failed, but then...GRRM spent ten years rewriting and agonizing over Dany's chapters in ADWD, and the end result there isn't so hot either. AFFC and ADWD seem like a nightmare to adapt, especially when there are so many stories that don't really come together as a cohesive whole, and TWOW is still unpublished.

 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

For example, Benjen=Coldhands is an old, discredited theory

Is Benjen being presented as Coldhands in the show universe? I'm pretty sure he's never identified as such (seemingly, Coldhands doesn't exist in show world), barring an interview with Weiss where he almost fucks up and refers to Benjen as Coldhands. In any case, just because Coldhands isn't Benjen, that doesn't mean that Benjen hasn't suffered a similar fate. It's too early to say.
 

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