Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan

[JNR]

Well,  I'm not sure how we can read GRRM saying that he (GRRM) has given obsidian magical properties in his world... and conclude from this that obsidian has no magical properties.  Or that it requires Sam to say special things for it to work, or that it's part of a complex ritual all of which must be executed to kill Popsicles.

Let's recall what happened when Sam slew the Popsicle:

Quote

He giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands.

So is it the giggling or the stumbling or the falling or the shoving blindly that we think is a magical ritual here?

This is plainly part of a logical pattern, other parts of which include the fact that (as GRRM explicitly told us in the Shaw interview) obsidian is formed via immense heat and obsidian melts Popsicles, which are creatures of magical cold.

We might also consider the synonym for obsidian in GRRM's world. Does dragonglass suggests great heat to us?  Or great cold?

On the show, in contrast, Sam's dagger does not melt the Popsicle, which dies in quite a different way.  And obsidian plays a hilariously inappropriate role in another sequence, which... well, look at that, it's nowhere to be found in GRRM's canon at all.

It doesn't seem like much of a reach to suggest that GRRM is doing different things, more logical and consistent things, with obsidian than D&D are, and D&D are not even aware of the difference.

[Matthew.]

16 hours ago, JNR said:

So it's not that the CotF made particular chunks of obsidian magical, but that his fictional version of obsidian, the obsidian in that world, inherently has magical traits.

I think this is probably the case, but I was still keeping in mind the example of the glass candle; the raw obsidian is inherently magical, but perhaps there's still some element of sorcery that goes into fashioning the daggers and arrowheads.

In part, I was interested in that line of speculation as relates to the daggers that the CotF used to provide the NW. If any obsidian can slay a white walker, then the daggers are primarily a symbolic gesture; on the other hand, if the CotF are the only ones with the lore to elevate a mundane obsidian dagger into something that can slay a white walker, those offerings might take on a different context. (eg, the CotF have more leverage to ensure that men keep the Pact).
______

That aside, I also wonder whether there might be some added layer of significance to the term "dragonglass." In a world where Valyria exists, the term isn't necessarily interesting, but we've learned that "frozen flame" was the preferred descriptor in Valyria, while Luwin favors "obsidian;" the first character we actually see using the term "dragonglass" is Osha, from beyond the Wall.

To me, that raises the question: was "dragonglass" (or its equivalent in the Old Tongue) the preferred name for obsidian among the First Men, especially with the additional context of the Last Hero's "dragonsteel?" Again, none of this necessarily means anything, but since these terms might potentially pre-date Valyria by thousands of years, it does make me curious.

[Matthew.]

8 minutes ago, JNR said:

So is it the giggling or the stumbling or the falling or the shoving blindly that we think is a magical ritual here?

Unless I'm misunderstanding him, I'm pretty sure BC is making reference to the fact that Sam is a sworn brother of the NW (sworn in front of a heart tree, even), which might give his wielding of obsidian some added layer of magic, in the same way that Sam can open the Black Gate when, presumably, Bran and co. could not, even if they knew the words.

[Black Crow]

11 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding him, I'm pretty sure BC is making reference to the fact that Sam is a sworn brother of the NW (sworn in front of a heart tree, even), which might give his wielding of obsidian some added layer of magic, in the same way that Sam can open the Black Gate when, presumably, Bran and co. could not, even if they knew the words.

That's exactly what I meant in referring to the words. There's no doubt that dragonglass has magical properties but like all magic it needs another layer to work. GRRM, remember, said that he broke the spell when he shoved it into Ser Puddles.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think obsidian itself is special and has magic monster slaying properties.  Rather obsidian is part of a complex ritual that creates a white walker, and can interfere with the spell.

Have you ever had metal shavings get inside a computer?  They can completely destroy most components. The components themselves conduct electricity in complex ways, and the shavings are nothing special except they also conduct electricity and interfere with the process. 

I like that comparison, because it goes along with what I was saying about how obsidian, being frozen fire, can counteract or reverse ice magic. Maybe it's more of an "interrupter"? If white walkers are ice golems created by greenseers, the frozen fire interrupts the projection forcing the greenseer out of the ice golem it created....popping like a soap bubble.

[LordBlakeney]

On 4/28/2017 at 10:25 AM, JNR said:

OK, interesting idea, but how do you reconcile the idea of an ice dragon with the idea of a corpse queen?

Corpse Queen tells you everything. What does Varamyr Sixskins think is a second life worthy of a King? A direwolf. A Queen would be deserving of something more elegant. Icy. Inhuman. A second-lifed ice dragon could easily be described as a corpse.

Remember when Varamyr takes Haggon's animal and his second life? Remember all of Haggon's warning about "abominations?" The NK started the abominations. 

On 4/28/2017 at 11:25 AM, Matthew. said:

Out of curiosity, are you proposing that the NK and his ice dragon were the cause of the Long Night, and the slaying of the ice dragon (which became the pool at Winterfell) was the decisive factor in winning the Battle for the Dawn?

I believe that is a possibility, and I think it likely that the legends of Azor Ahai, Last Hero, and Night's King are in some cases redundant, describing the same event but from a different perspective passed down by different peoples through the years. 

Nissa Nissa = Amethyst Empress = Night's Queen would be a tidy reveal, but I also don't believe all these stories have to be about the same people for it to make sense that the NK caught an ice dragon. Nor do I believe it necessary for the NK to have caused the long night. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think obsidian itself is special and has magic monster slaying properties.  Rather obsidian is part of a complex ritual that creates a white walker, and can interfere with the spell.

Have you ever had metal shavings get inside a computer?  They can completely destroy most components. The components themselves conduct electricity in complex ways, and the shavings are nothing special except they also conduct electricity and interfere with the process. 

Notwithstanding the Mummers' version I'm wary of dragonglass being involved in the creation of white walkers, but otherwise we and Feather appear to be in agreement that dragonglass is connected with fire and while otherwise harmless in everyday use can be used to conduct magic. As I said earlier Sam's ability to break the spell I strongly suspect was based on him having said the words of the oath, just as they were necessary to open the Black Gate. I suspect that had Gilly tried to stab Ser Puddles with that same dagger - he would have laughed. 

[Black Crow]

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:47 PM

In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles with the dragonglass dagger "he broke the spell holding him together." [his words]

[silverthorndale]

I like the idea of it being the Night's Watch vow that powers the spells in the dragonglass. 

It will be interesting to see how this affects oathbreakers trying to battle the Walkers if it is true. Would the power be null in the hands of a soiled Watchman? 

Since most of them are technically oathbreakers  (buried treasure) I wonder where the line would be drawn. Useless in the great struggle because of a bit of whoring? That would be rough!

I like the parallel with the Faceless Men this brings about. The greater the sacrifice, the greater the power (greater the target in the case of the Faceless). The Watchmen sacrifice everything but their lives so it makes sense they're the ones with the power to wield dragonglass' true potential.

I know better than to bring up the show in book discussion, so please take this part less seriously, but we saw

Spoiler

Meera slay Ser Puddles the Third in the show last season, and she never said the words.

 

However! She did swear a very specific oath to Bran in the books, and she sacrificed everything to get Bran to maybe-Bloodraven, including the life of her own brother  (his sacrifice, too). 

Could it be the sacrifice itself that gives the obsidian power? Not necessarily the words, but the sacrifice inherent in saying the words (and meaning them)? The words simply being verbal affirmation of one's intent to commit to their sacrifice?

I hope this post is worthy of Heresy. You folks are my favourite. 

Do season 6 spoilers matter here? Added a tag anyway.

[PrettyPig]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 5:05 AM, LordBlakeney said:

In the discussions I think we're missing something. Everyone assumes the woman he glimpsed was down on the ground and that she seduced him. That interpretation tends to ignore some of the precious few details we're given about the event. The Night’s King was atop the wall and spotted his corpse queen. Nothing says he was looking down. Everything seems to indicate the Night’s Watch is looking up – Myrish lenses and all.

You know, I have never looked at it this way, and now that you say this it makes perfect sense.   The Wall is 700 feet high, and he's on top of it...of course he's looking up.   I feel so stupid for not having put this together.

The ice dragon idea is interesting, and it does fit in places.   On the other hand, now that I'm in the mindframe of "look to the skies", I'm wondering if this also might be a reference to a celestial body  - like, not an ice dragon, but the ice dragon...the constellation.  Or, something else in space - my brain is tying this to the meteorite from which Dawn was made, and what certainly sounds like magical properties associated with it ("pale as milkglass, alive with light, sharper than any normal steel", etc.)   I'm imagining something extraterrestrial that exerts a controlling force.

That sounds weird, I know, but I think people forget that GRRM is at heart a sci-fi guy.   Not only did he pack his childhood/young adulthood with stories about entities from alternate dimensions, superheroes from alien planets,  or secret colonies lurking on hidden moons, he's written stories of this nature himself.   I don't believe he's going to drop actual aliens into the ASOIAF mix (although I'll be interested to see if he tries) but when I read theories like yours I realize that there's nothing keeping him from injecting that "first love" line of thought into the ancient legend in a very subtle and totally non-provable way.   Now that I view the NK tale from a different perspective, I won't be surprised if this is in fact meant to be an homage to the sci-fi stuff GRRM likes.  It fits.
 

[Lady Dyanna]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

Well,  I'm not sure how we can read GRRM saying that he (GRRM) has given obsidian magical properties in his world... and conclude from this that obsidian has no magical properties.  Or that it requires Sam to say special things for it to work, or that it's part of a complex ritual all of which must be executed to kill Popsicles.

Hi there. Just a brief interruption in programming to provide you with the below service. 

You are JNR. Today is Sunday, April 30, 2017. The next holiday is Mother's Day. The season is Spring. The weather outside is warm and sunny.  (Well, where I am, at least.) You have been posting/having discussions in Heresy. Have you met any of the rest of us before or do we need to reintroduce ourselves? (JIC.  Hi, I'm Lady Di, I  pointless arguments, crazy ideas and Heresy.  I do not like sudden rainstorms and RLJ.) 

Cuz, really, I'm thinking,  how would it be possible for at least one person NOT  to read it that way. You might not have noticed but there does tend to be a bit of over analyzing around here at times.  

[Lady Dyanna]

On 4/28/2017 at 7:05 AM, LordBlakeney said:

In the discussions I think we're missing something. Everyone assumes the woman he glimpsed was down on the ground and that she seduced him. That interpretation tends to ignore some of the precious few details we're given about the event. The Night’s King was atop the wall and spotted his corpse queen. Nothing says he was looking down. Everything seems to indicate the Night’s Watch is looking up – Myrish lenses and all.

Also she didn’t just seduce him – we’re told he had to chase her. He had to then catch her.

The Night’s King spied an ice dragon from atop the wall. He chased it and caught it and “wed” it – he skinchanged it. Ice Dragons, going off the world book, are even more fearsome, powerful, and probably magical to the extreme compared to fire dragons. Naturally, when a skinchanger bonds with an animal, part of that animal merges with the skinchanger. The skinchanger grows more and more like that animal. The Night’s King grows fearsome and terrible to behold as his bond with the ice dragon takes his soul and leaves him cold as ice.

He then "brought her back to the Nightfort." Some of this action is taking place away from the Wall. Specifically, when he "chased her and caught her." A last hero setting out into the cold dead lands? Maybe he brought 13 companions with him.

Dovetail this nicely with the theory that the always-cold black pool at Winterfell is a melted/slain ice dragon (surrounded by hot pools and the Walls of Winterfell).

Don’t get too tied down to timelines we’re presented in the books (they’re flawed oral histories), move some of the legends around, and this could fit in nicely with a bunch of pet theories different posters have.

Can I just say that the more thought that I put into this idea, the more that I like it. It truly does make a lot of sense. Due to some parallels that I've found between the tale of the NK and his Queen and Bran's coma dream, I've been holding onto the idea that the NQ was at the very least a skinchanger, if not that time period's version of the 3EC. Not to mention the parallels between Bran and Symeon Star Eyes. And if Bran at times parallels both of them, wouldn't it, in fact make sense for both of them to be parallels of each other? It would make a lot of sense for a guy with "Star Eyes" to be gazing at the heavens. 

I just wonder if you have put any thought into the idea that even if the NK originally spotted his Queen in Ice Dragon form, that there was already a woman that was skinchanging said dragon? 

8 hours ago, LordBlakeney said:

Corpse Queen tells you everything. What does Varamyr Sixskins think is a second life worthy of a King? A direwolf. A Queen would be deserving of something more elegant. Icy. Inhuman. A second-lifed ice dragon could easily be described as a corpse.

Because, yes, Corpse Queen, really does tell you everything. Yes, it would be a second life fit for royalty, but in this case the gender seems to have previously been specified, and it doesn't match that of a king. That leads me to believe that SHE was the one that was bonded with the dragon. Now that's not to say that she never taught him the secret of how she did it, or at some point he didn't in fact learn to bond with either his own ice dragon or simply another creature, because honestly, I suspect that he might have. Possible into the body of one of the popsicles if I let my imagination run away from me for a moment. 

8 hours ago, LordBlakeney said:

Remember when Varamyr takes Haggon's animal and his second life? Remember all of Haggon's warning about "abominations?" The NK started the abominations. 

As to the bolded, I suspect that you might be completely correct on this one. I think the NK did exactly that. I think that each of those abominations are another way to amass a certain type of power. And I've long wondered if they might be the route needed to "make" a Greenseer or the equivalent. Varamyr's abilities seemes to increase with every abomination that he committed. Eat human flesh, go from warg to skinchanger. Mate in his animals, gain control over the animals when he isn't directly skinchanging each one. Attempt to skin change a human, but not quite make it, then you travel through the earth and the trees, but don't quite become a greenseer. And this last one even happened after Melisandre purified him with fire. What happened then? He lost control of all of his animals with the exception of his wolves, who he could naturally warg. And if you look at Bran, you see the same thing happening. He's committing all of the abominations as well and it's only serving to increase his abilities. Did the NK's Corpse Queen teach him the value behind these acts? 

[JNR]

13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

In part, I was interested in that line of speculation as relates to the daggers that the CotF used to provide the NW. If any obsidian can slay a white walker, then the daggers are primarily a symbolic gesture

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure it really would have been that symbolic in the Age of Heroes, so much as practical. 

This is because there are no volcanoes near the Wall... the nearest one apparently being Hardhome (some 150 miles northward into hostile territory).   Dragonmount, the only apparent alternative in Westeros, is a long weary way to the south, more than a thousand miles off in a time when there was no kingsroad, dozens of petty kingdoms to travel through with their own kings and laws... and, very likely, not much in the way of established sea commerce to compare with modern times.

So the CotF as obsidian suppliers, responsible not only for finding it and shaping it but also delivering it, would have been performing a valuable service to the Watch.

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM, remember, said that he broke the spell when he shoved it into Ser Puddles.

Yes, because that's the magical property he gave it to his fictional version of obsidian.

But as with so much else, we'll find out for sure in forthcoming books, no doubt. My guess is that we'll see men on the Wall with dragonglass-tipped arrows in TWOW, and if they strike Popsicles, it's not going to matter who fired them.  Some are likely to be free folk who never swore the oath or joined the Watch.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As I said earlier Sam's ability to break the spell I strongly suspect was based on him having said the words of the oath, just as they were necessary to open the Black Gate.

The clear problem with this theory being that the Black Gate is a conscious entity that asked Sam to recite that as a password (and he did). 

An obsidian dagger is not conscious, didn't ask him to recite anything, and he didn't recite anything (instead resorting to giggling), etc.  So the only way it would know would be if it were telepathic.  I struggle with the notion of a conscious and telepathic obsidian dagger that would have refused to function properly had Gilly used it the same way.

However, we are now entering territory sufficiently unexpected that the contemplation is its own reward.  (Reminds me of a prior discussion in which the question came up as to whether the Popsicles would break the crust of snow if wearing stiletto heels that concentrated their weight on a point.)

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Cuz, really, I'm thinking,  how would it be possible for at least one person NOT  to read it that way. You might not have noticed but there does tend to be a bit of over analyzing around here at times.

Well, you're right, of course. 

I often have to remind myself that however many times GRRM swears the books and show are increasingly divergent, and there are huge changes coming... many fans interpret that to mean there aren't and can't possibly be any huge changes.  

However many times people point out Jon never, in his many dreams, has a dream involving a dragon in any of the five books... and when asked by Tyrion, says he never had such a dream... many fans will still insist that that is clear proof that Jon must necessarily have had dragondreams (like any Targ -- GRRM just didn't want to give it away so easily).

Naturally obsidian isn't going to be much different. 

[Voice]

Heretic Service Announcement
 

Spoiler

 

We have updated the Poll:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1472/round-2-voice-ask-grrm

 

Poll Winner will have their question asked first, but if GRRM allows me, I will be asking everyone's questions that have been submitted.

You may submit your question(s) here:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1459/george-martin

Or here:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1472/round-2-voice-ask-grrm

I'll post notes and recordings of the meeting, and hopefully, video.

 

 

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

(Reminds me of a prior discussion in which the question came up as to whether the Popsicles would break the crust of snow if wearing stiletto heels that concentrated their weight on a point.)

That would be be before my time.

Be merciful, @JNR, tell me where I can find this discussion.

 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

 

The clear problem with this theory being that the Black Gate is a conscious entity that asked Sam to recite that as a password (and he did). 

An obsidian dagger is not conscious, didn't ask him to recite anything, and he didn't recite anything (instead resorting to giggling), etc.  So the only way it would know would be if it were telepathic.  I struggle with the notion of a conscious and telepathic obsidian dagger that would have refused to function properly had Gilly used it the same way.

However, we are now entering territory sufficiently unexpected that the contemplation is its own reward.  

All perfectly true, but the Free Folk, who know more than most about the blue-eyed lot have no [revealed] traditions about dragonglass and no carefully hoarded pieces, which is why I think its not kryptonite and needs something else to break spells wittingly or unwittingly.

[Matthew.]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure it really would have been that symbolic in the Age of Heroes, so much as practical. 

This is because there are no volcanoes near the Wall... the nearest one apparently being Hardhome (some 150 miles northward into hostile territory).   Dragonmount, the only apparent alternative in Westeros, is a long weary way to the south, more than a thousand miles off in a time when there was no kingsroad, dozens of petty kingdoms to travel through with their own kings and laws... and, very likely, not much in the way of established sea commerce to compare with modern times.

I suppose, in my head, I was envisioning that by the time of the Long Night men might have their own sources of obsidian, including existing weapons and tools obtained through conquest, trade, and scavenging - and that supporting the NW would be a priority in the early days following the LN - but I can just as easily envision the scarcity you suggest.

 

11 hours ago, JNR said:

An obsidian dagger is not conscious, didn't ask him to recite anything, and he didn't recite anything (instead resorting to giggling), etc.  So the only way it would know would be if it were telepathic.  I struggle with the notion of a conscious and telepathic obsidian dagger that would have refused to function properly had Gilly used it the same way.

I don't know, it's not as though "Magic Items That Distinguish Between the Worthy and Unworthy" is a wholly unknown concept in fiction and mythology; eg, Sigmund being the only one able to draw the sword Gram from the Barnstokkr tree in which it had been embedded by Odin, and the similar tale of the sword in the stone.

To revisit Sam, it may not only be notable that he's in the NW, but that he specifically said his oaths before the old gods, so I can see the case for what BC suggests--that the magic of the old gods might respond to him in a way that it wouldn't respond to others.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All perfectly true, but the Free Folk, who know more than most about the blue-eyed lot have no [revealed] traditions about dragonglass and no carefully hoarded pieces, which is why I think its not kryptonite and needs something else to break spells wittingly or unwittingly.

Or maybe they simply don't know that obsidian has those properties. If the wildlings were the people that were practicing ice magic and making white walkers, then the Children and the Watch may not have made that weapon known.

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All perfectly true, but the Free Folk, who know more than most about the blue-eyed lot have no [revealed] traditions about dragonglass and no carefully hoarded pieces, which is why I think its not kryptonite and needs something else to break spells wittingly or unwittingly.

The free folk haven't been fighting the blue eyed lot for thousands of years.  We do know there was an agreement with the pact where Children gave men obsidian daggers.