Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All perfectly true, but the Free Folk, who know more than most about the blue-eyed...

Brad already touched upon this, but it is worth questioning: Do the Free Folk know more than most about the Others? It's a thing we might logically infer, but we've never actually seen any of them - save for possibly Craster - demonstrate a knowledge that goes any further than what the modern Watch knows.

At the least, Tormund and Mance speak only from recent experiences with the return of the Others, but don't reveal any deeper knowledge inherited from oral tradition (which at least makes a degree of sense with Mance, since he wasn't raised beyond the Wall); references to obsidian and dragonsteel exist in the NW archives, but is the efficacy of obsidian known to the Free Folk? Was it ever known to them?

We can't say, because we don't entirely know who the Free Folk are descended from--survivors of the LN who huddled in safe places within the territory that would eventually find itself on the wrong side of the Wall, not knowing how the war was ended? People who made offerings to the Others (or their masters) to survive? People who were subsequently exiled beyond the Wall, for various reasons? We don't really know.

Edit: Of course, much of this still goes toward your point that obsidian may not work against the Others if you're not a member of the Night's Watch, as the Free Folk couldn't inherit knowledge of a weapon that has never worked for them in the first place.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The free folk haven't been fighting the blue eyed lot for thousands of years.  We do know there was an agreement with the pact where Children gave men obsidian daggers.

Not quite. Sam found mention of their giving the Watch 100 pieces of obsidian every year although he said nothing of when they stopped and in any case 100 pieces each year sounds like a ritual or ritualised tribute rather than a gun-running operation

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Brad already touched upon this, but it is worth questioning: Do the Free Folk know more than most about the Others? It's a thing we might logically infer, but we've never actually seen any of them - save for possibly Craster - demonstrate a knowledge that goes any further than what the modern Watch knows.

At the least, Tormund and Mance speak only from recent experiences with the return of the Others, but don't reveal any deeper knowledge inherited from oral tradition (which at least makes a degree of sense with Mance, since he wasn't raised beyond the Wall); references to obsidian and dragonsteel exist in the NW archives, but is the efficacy of obsidian known to the Free Folk? Was it ever known to them?

We can't say, because we don't entirely know who the Free Folk are descended from--survivors of the LN who huddled in safe places within the territory that would eventually find itself on the wrong side of the Wall, not knowing how the war was ended? People who made offerings to the Others (or their masters) to survive? People who were subsequently exiled beyond the Wall, for various reasons? We don't really know.

Edit: Of course, much of this still goes toward your point that obsidian may not work against the Others if you're not a member of the Night's Watch, as the Free Folk couldn't inherit knowledge of a weapon that has never worked for them in the first place.

True, but that raises another question in itself. The free-folk do know about the blue-eyed lot - as Osha makes very clear - but their experience is one of helplessness. They don't know how to fight them and there is no suggestion that they believe the Watch do either. They see the Watch as the enemy not as protectors, just as the Watch themselves do.

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

True, but that raises another question in itself. The free-folk do know about the blue-eyed lot - as Osha makes very clear - but their experience is one of helplessness. They don't know how to fight them and there is no suggestion that they believe the Watch do either. They see the Watch as the enemy not as protectors, just as the Watch themselves do.

I am quite skeptical, not of Osha, but of including all wildlings under the umbrella of helplessness. I think there are some wildlings that do know how to create white walkers, but the knowledge is confined to a small handful. I suspect Val, and Dalla before her, know how to work the ice magic and the blood sacrifice involved, and it's likely the reason why Mance married Dalla in the first place. Val's playful, yet knowing nickname, "Monster", for Gilly's son seems to hint of this knowledge.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Not quite. Sam found mention of their giving the Watch 100 pieces of obsidian every year although he said nothing of when they stopped and in any case 100 pieces each year sounds like a ritual or ritualised tribute rather than a gun-running operation

I disagree.  Obsidian is reusable,  so if they went through 100 daggers each year, they had to be fighting thousands of Others.

[JNR]

14 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

That would be be before my time.

Be merciful, @JNR, tell me where I can find this discussion.

Certainly, it begins right here.

Note also this remark by ATS, who is gone but not forgotten.

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

which is why I think its not kryptonite and needs something else to break spells

Well, it's not impossible. Since the large majority of those defending the Wall against the Popsicles are free folk who have not sworn the oath, and obsidian is very likely going to be a primary defense in the form of arrowheads, we may well find out in the next book.

Assuming there is a next book...

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I don't know, it's not as though "Magic Items That Distinguish Between the Worthy and Unworthy" is a wholly unknown concept in fiction and mythology

Of course -- Thor's hammer from Marvel Comics coming to mind as an outstanding example.

But if this were possible in ASOIAF, then I would expect the Black Gate to work the same way... in which case there would be no need for it to ask Sam a password and wait for a correct answer.  It could simply have Distinguished Him As Worthy, automatically.  Yet it couldn't.

[JNR]

OK, here's a thought I had recently that I'll throw out for Heretical discussion.

This passage has bugged me for years:

Quote

Lord Balon occupied the Seastone Chair, carved in the shape of a great kraken from an immense block of oily black stone. Legend said that the First Men had found it standing on the shore of Old Wyk when they came to the Iron Islands.

Here we find the subtle logical problem of how, if they found a chair, the First Men knew that it had been carved from an immense block. 

A block, of course, is a rectangular object with flat sides.  I don't know how you could look at a carved chair, and know it had come from a block, as opposed to, say, a huge boulder of no regular shape.

But suppose that the "it" in the second sentence doesn't mean the chair.  Suppose it means the immediately previous noun: the block of black oily stone.

Aha, now the light begins to dawn.  Now the idea is that the First Men found an immense block on the beach and from it, they carved the chair... and that's how they know where the chair came from.  Quite simple.

This interpretation also fits rather neatly with something else, from ADWD:

Quote

Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil.

This naturally makes me wonder if there's an architectural (and therefore, cultural) connection between the Iron Islands in incredibly ancient times, and the similarly super-ancient Moat Cailin.  Quite interesting. 

Now I'm starting to think that these vast blocks of black stone were left behind by... someone... at some point... and found and used by the First Men to build Moat Cailin's curtain wall.  And from another one of these blocks, found on Old Wyk, the Seastone Chair was carved.

If this is true, I suspect that Yandel, who wrote the World book, may not be quite as well informed as he thinks.  Because his rendering of the Seastone Chair myth is quite flat and unambiguous compared to GRRM's:

Quote

Among the ironborn, it is said that the first of the First Men to come to the Iron Isles found the famous Seastone Chair on Old Wyk, but that the isles were uninhabited.

Why, it's almost as if the learned Maester Yandel had in some impossible way read ACOK (though it exists only in our world and not Yandel's) and had been fooled by GRRM into thinking the wrong thing. 

But that, of course, could not ever happen.

[Black Crow]

I don't think its necessary to tie yourself in knots over this one. I think it simply means that it was carved from a single large piece of stone

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I disagree.  Obsidian is reusable,  so if they went through 100 daggers each year, they had to be fighting thousands of Others.

Not particularly. The reference is to "pieces" of dragonglass, not daggers and therefore  can include arrowheads and the shards used to set in wooden blades to make an Aztec-style sword.

I'd also say that in terms of mortal combat Sam got lucky. Better you than me going up against one of those ice swords with a small shard of dragonglass.

The 100 pieces of course also correspond to the 100 kingdoms of First Men - hence the suggestion of a ritual exchange [for what?]

[LordBlakeney]

On 4/30/2017 at 9:28 PM, PrettyPig said:

The ice dragon idea is interesting, and it does fit in places.   On the other hand, now that I'm in the mindframe of "look to the skies", I'm wondering if this also might be a reference to a celestial body  - like, not an ice dragon, but the ice dragon...the constellation.  Or, something else in space - my brain is tying this to the meteorite from which Dawn was made, and what certainly sounds like magical properties associated with it ("pale as milkglass, alive with light, sharper than any normal steel", etc.)   I'm imagining something extraterrestrial that exerts a controlling force.

I've seen several people with this idea. There are lots of ways it could work. The specifics of who the real people behind NK and NQ were leaves plenty of wiggle room, but the general idea that the person remembered as the Night's King skinchanged an ice dragon fits the story. 

[LynnS]

On 2017-05-01 at 4:34 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I am quite skeptical, not of Osha, but of including all wildlings under the umbrella of helplessness. I think there are some wildlings that do know how to create white walkers, but the knowledge is confined to a small handful. I suspect Val, and Dalla before her, know how to work the ice magic and the blood sacrifice involved, and it's likely the reason why Mance married Dalla in the first place. Val's playful, yet knowing nickname, "Monster", for Gilly's son seems to hint of this knowledge.

I'm wondering about the whole business of being a godswife.  Mirri Maaz Duur calls herself a godswife; Melisandre seems likely a bride of fire and Bran has been 'wed' to a weirwood.  Is it possible that Theon's dream of Lyanna in a white dress spattered with blood means that she was initiated as a godswife, on the God's Eye perhaps.  Something that involved a blood sacrifice?  I have my tinfoil hat on of course.  Is this why Craster says he is a godly man.  Are his wives also godswives?  What about Val and Dalla? Septas are also godwives who wear white, blue and grey.  Could this be why Ned dreams of Lyanna's statue weeping blood like a weirwood?

[Black Crow]

Interesting; the term Gods-wife is clearly analogous to bride of Christ.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Interesting; the term Gods-wife is clearly analogous to bride of Christ.

Also this:

Quote

God's Wife (Egyptian ḥmt nṯr) is a title which was often allocated to royal women during the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt. The term indicates an inherited sacral duty, in which the role of "God's Wife" passed from mother to daughter. The role could also exist among siblings, as in the case of the role of "God's Wife" being shared or passed by daughters of Ahmose-Nefertari, Satamun (I) and her sister, Ahmose-Merytamun.^[1]

 

[Prof. Cecily]

On 5/1/2017 at 11:30 PM, JNR said:

Certainly, it begins right here.

Note also this remark by ATS, who is gone but not forgotten. ...

 

Thanks. That image of the stiletto heels will stay with me forever!

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm wondering about the whole business of being a godswife.  Mirri Maaz Duur calls herself a godswife; Melisandre seems likely a bride of fire and Bran has been 'wed' to a weirwood.  Is it possible that Theon's dream of Lyanna in a white dress spattered with blood means that she was initiated as a godswife, on the God's Eye perhaps.  Something that involved a blood sacrifice?  I have my tinfoil hat on of course.  Is this why Craster says he is a godly man.  Are his wives also godswives?  What about Val and Dalla? Septas are also godwives who wear white, blue and grey.  Could this be why Ned dreams of Lyanna's statue weeping blood like a weirwood?

I do suspect Lyanna died from a sword wound and not childbirth. What happened to Myrcella is meant to mirror what happened to Lyanna. Darkstar tried to kill Myrcella, but the sword left a gash down the side of her face and took her ear off. Certainly blood running down a face could resemble tears.

[LynnS]

On 2017-05-03 at 6:52 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I do suspect Lyanna died from a sword wound and not childbirth. What happened to Myrcella is meant to mirror what happened to Lyanna. Darkstar tried to kill Myrcella, but the sword left a gash down the side of her face and took her ear off. Certainly blood running down a face could resemble tears.

Well, there is also the business of the Horned Lord and other Kings Beyond the Wall who broke their forces on the Wall or Winterfell.  Mance's tent is curious:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.

 

 

[Black Crow]

We do have something of an odd contradiction here. The bed of blood can be dismissed as a similie. Ned refers to "the fever" but Theon [not, admittedly an eyewitness to the original] sees a blood-spattered ghost

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We do have something of an odd contradiction here. The bed of blood can be dismissed as a similie. Ned refers to "the fever" but Theon [not, admittedly an eyewitness to the original] sees a blood-spattered ghost

Childbed fever... infection caused post-partum or infection caused by c-section.  Either way not incongruent with a bed of blood. 

[Black Crow]

Yes but its the timing. Is she still going to be weltering in her blood when the fever finally kills her? I can go with a messy death in childbirth, I can go with a post-partum infection, but do the two go together or does the blood come from a separate event?

[Melifeather]

IMO Lyanna's fever was from a festering sword wound. Arya was supposed to be like Lyanna, and Ned made sure Arya has sword lessons. Ned sees Lyanna as weeping blood. Theon sees a spattered gown. Myrcella, who mirrors Lyanna, was injured by a sword. Being mortally wounded by a sword does not eliminate the possibility of also having a child, however it does help open up when Jon was born. Because I think he was actually born months earlier than the showdown at the tower of joy.