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Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan


Black Crow

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4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes but its the timing. Is she still going to be weltering in her blood when the fever finally kills her? I can go with a messy death in childbirth, I can go with a post-partum infection, but do the two go together or does the blood come from a separate event?

I am wondering about that as well.  The room smells of blood but I think Theon's dream of her is something entirely different.  I just don't know what it means.  I wonder if this has something to do with Howland Reed and the God's eye and the possibility of Lyanna being a gods-wife.  The symbolism of a white (wedding) dress and blood sacrifice.  Or what this might have to do with Jon Snow if she was pregnant during some kind of ritual or sacrament.  Because it seems to me that the Horned Lord has significant meaning to the Wildlings or at least to Dalla and possibly Mance. It's not coincidence that the King Beyond the Wall resides in a large white tent crowned with the horns of a great elk of a type that Coldhands shows up riding one. A green man in other words, possibly one of the cold gods.  Mance denies he is KBtW and perhaps the true KBtW is Jon.  Not coincidently, Melisandre seems to be looking for the same thing... a crowned stag.  Not to mention that Jon has been given the mysterious broken horn, possibly even Joramun's true horn.

Howland is a big mystery of course and I suspect he wasn't just showing up for Ned's benefit. Certainly, if Howland hadn't been present at the ToJ, Ned would have died and Jon's future would have been in someone else's hands.

Not enough information... although I maintain that Robert's celebration of the twin white fawns spattered in blood beside the sleeping lion nearly torn in two... is a show and tell.

I'm also wondering if it was Howland Reed who killed the direwolf rather than Gared.  If he was waiting for Gared on the other side of the Black Gate and brought the wolf south.

 

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As to Lyanna and the possibility of a section, it occurs to me that there may be a simple solution here, namely that Lyanna was already dying of some kind of a fever and Jon was ripped untimely from her womb in order to at least save him.

 

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO Lyanna's fever was from a festering sword wound. Arya was supposed to be like Lyanna, and Ned made sure Arya has sword lessons. Ned sees Lyanna as weeping blood. Theon sees a spattered gown. Myrcella, who mirrors Lyanna, was injured by a sword. Being mortally wounded by a sword does not eliminate the possibility of also having a child, however it does help open up when Jon was born. Because I think he was actually born months earlier than the showdown at the tower of joy.

I think that what you're saying here is very possible if not even probable as far as Lyanna receiving an injury from and possibly dying as a result of an injury. I guess either way that you look at it the cause is just a different type of sword. I would also have agreed with you at one point about Myrcella and Lyanna being a mirror. I do tend to wonder if you've ever considered that she might be a mirror to Elia instead? Myrcella leaving King's Landing for her betrothal to Trystane seems awfully similar to Elia arriving there for her betrothal to  Rhaegar, just in reverse. I really think that we need to be looking to either Sansa or maybe even Tyrion for Lyanna. 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As to Lyanna and the possibility of a section, it occurs to me that there may be a simple solution here, namely that Lyanna was already dying of some kind of a fever and Jon was ripped untimely from her womb in order to at least save him.

 

Quite possibly. But... Just her attempting to protect him either from being taken away or from some sort of intended harm (unknown ritual) could account for a lot of the symbolism that is shown. Not to mention fit whatever it was that killed her. Another possibility is that if his was Dany and NOT Jon. :cool4:

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Childbed fever... infection caused post-partum or infection caused by c-section.  Either way not incongruent with a bed of blood. 

Yeah, I've been on Team C-section for a year now (assuming Lyanna was even at the ToJ and had a baby). 

Since the room still smells of blood, it was a fairly recent event, but it wouldn't have to be within hours.  A C-section would result in obvious issues.

Unless there was medical talent present of which we know nothing, she wouldn't have been stitched up at all well (assuming there was any stitching), nor would the blade have been sterilized.  I would expect infection and a fever to follow in short order, likely fatal.

If carried out by a KG (such as Dayne) with a sword (such as Dawn), because her baby was a breech, it's also conceivable to me that Lyanna insisted on this to save the baby's life.  If so Ned would not think less of the KG who handled it, even though she subsequently died.

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Here's a little curiosity:

Quote

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

Sure reads like he's not wearing a helm, for Dany to know this from the vision.  Meaning she can see his face. 

Yet she shows no sign of realizing this dying and murmuring prince, whose face she can apparently see, is the same guy she had only just seen here:

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

Nor does Dany mention the dying and murmuring prince when she discusses this with Mormont:

Quote

 

Dany could not let it go. "His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I'm certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings."

Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

 

You'd think it would come up. 

"I saw him twice, and one of those times rubies were coming off his breastplate, and I know that describes Rhaegar because I've been told how Robert killed him at the Trident.  So yes, I'm sure it was Rhaegar in the first vision with the baby."

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14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I think that what you're saying here is very possible if not even probable as far as Lyanna receiving an injury from and possibly dying as a result of an injury. I guess either way that you look at it the cause is just a different type of sword. I would also have agreed with you at one point about Myrcella and Lyanna being a mirror. I do tend to wonder if you've ever considered that she might be a mirror to Elia instead? Myrcella leaving King's Landing for her betrothal to Trystane seems awfully similar to Elia arriving there for her betrothal to  Rhaegar, just in reverse. I really think that we need to be looking to either Sansa or maybe even Tyrion for Lyanna. 

It certainly is open to interpretation. As for the mirroring, it's a time loop that keeps repeating so it's both Elia and Lyanna. Deja vu, over and over again. I think the intention behind the attack on Elia was to abduct or kill her, but it was a failed attempt. The events in the time loop were similar for Lyanna, but the abductors were successful. Ever since the Tourney of Harrenhal the time loops, while continuing, have been going backwards in time. We will get into some of this in the Knight of the Laughing Tree essay coming next, but I will say that the tourney in Ned's honor is a repeat of the Harrenhal tourney, and Myrcella's "abduction" is a repeat of Lyanna's and Elia's. Myrcella's abduction was just another variation, as she participated willingly with Ser Arys's urging. The three different Kingsguard for each respective loop were Hightower, Dayne, and Oakheart. In another variation of the loop, Sansa avoids "help" from her non-Kingsguard Clegane, but she's "abducted" none the less. She goes willingly with another "knight", Ser Dontos, and then Littlefinger spirits her away. Multiple loops, similar events, different outcomes.

If we were to fully deconstruct The Queenmaker chapter we could identify the repeating aspects of the time loop. In each loop there is a group of people representing the abductors, a prince, a female target, a Kingsguard, and someone is injured. These are the bare bones, so to speak, but each loop has slight variations. Try inserting each female into the loop's formula: Elia, Lyanna, Sansa, then Myrcella, and I think you will see what I'm talking about.

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10 hours ago, JNR said:

Yeah, I've been on Team C-section for a year now (assuming Lyanna was even at the ToJ and had a baby). 

Since the room still smells of blood, it was a fairly recent event, but it wouldn't have to be within hours.  A C-section would result in obvious issues.

Unless there was medical talent present of which we know nothing, she wouldn't have been stitched up at all well (assuming there was any stitching), nor would the blade have been sterilized.  I would expect infection and a fever to follow in short order, likely fatal.

If carried out by a KG (such as Dayne) with a sword (such as Dawn), because her baby was a breech, it's also conceivable to me that Lyanna insisted on this to save the baby's life.  If so Ned would not think less of the KG who handled it, even though she subsequently died.

I've wondered about the C-section possibility as well.  First we have Eddard perhaps subconsciously linking Robert's death bed scene to Lyanna's, and Robert at the time had been ripped from "groin to nipple" by the board, which would give a bit of a parallel to Lyanna post C-section.

The other thing that makes me wonder about it, is the possibility that GRRM has been inspired by the Volsunga saga for this story.  In the Volsunga saga, the birth of Volsung occurs only after his mother had been pregnant with him for six winters :o.  Finally having enough, she ordered a fatal C-section and out comes a six year old Volsung.  The saga ends with the slaying of a dwarf turned dragon, Fafnir.

I've wondered if GRRM has been inspired by some of the stranger origin stories of various mythological heroes.  Perhaps Jon as a nod to Volsung was born to Lyanna only after an unusually long pregnancy (which would put a bit of a crimp in some of the timeline theories about Jon's parentage) which ended in a C-section and the birth of Jon.  It's been theorized that Tyrion is a genetic chimera (the product of two different male's sperms, one fetus absorbing another in womb).  If so, it could be a nod to Hercules' origin he and his twin brother having been born from his mother's pregnancy from two different fathers (Zeus and a mortal husband).  And finally I've long thought it possible that Aerys' rape of Rahella overheard by Jaime and Jon Darry, may not have been Rahella after all but perhaps by someone under a glamor (my guess is Ashara).  Which in turn would be an inverse to the conception of King Arthur, when Arthur's father, King Uther Pendragon, magically disguised himself as Igraine's husband.

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It certainly is open to interpretation. As for the mirroring, it's a time loop that keeps repeating so it's both Elia and Lyanna. Deja vu, over and over again. I think the intention behind the attack on Elia was to abduct or kill her, but it was a failed attempt. The events in the time loop were similar for Lyanna, but the abductors were successful.

There's actually a section in ACoK that makes me think that the attack on Elia and the Kingswood Brotherhood in general, instead of being meant to be the primary attack was just something put in place to distract from the whatever the real goal is. In the chapter where Theon first attacks the North and is met by Benfred? Tallhart and his band of young hares there is a lot that brings to mind certain members of the Brotherhood. In particular in the description of Dagmer Cleftjaw. In it Theon sends Dagmer off to Torrhen's Square, not to actually capture it, but rather as a diversion for his true plan of taking Winterfell. Were the Kingswood Brotherhood and the attack on Elia meant to actually be a diversion? 

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ever since the Tourney of Harrenhal the time loops, while continuing, have been going backwards in time. We will get into some of this in the Knight of the Laughing Tree essay coming next, but I will say that the tourney in Ned's honor is a repeat of the Harrenhal tourney, and Myrcella's "abduction" is a repeat of Lyanna's and Elia's.

Great! I'm looking forward to it! I agree that there is a lot of parallels/echoes/mirroring what ever you want to call it in Ned's tourney, both of the tourney at Harrenhall, and I'm pretty sure echoing the history of Westeros and the Long Night. It's been quite a while since I've looked at it, though, so I really need to find the time to read back through in order to remember exactly what it was that I saw. Hopefully I should get some time to do so before the next essay. 

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Myrcella's abduction was just another variation, as she participated willingly with Ser Arys's urging. The three different Kingsguard for each respective loop were Hightower, Dayne, and Oakheart. In another variation of the loop, Sansa avoids "help" from her non-Kingsguard Clegane, but she's "abducted" none the less. She goes willingly with another "knight", Ser Dontos, and then Littlefinger spirits her away. Multiple loops, similar events, different outcomes.

I agree with adding Sansa into that. I also wonder if we might not almost be mistaken to not include both Arya and Tyrion in as well, as both of them were either rescued or taken away as well. For Arya she was rescued by Yoren and with Tyrion he was taken by Cat.

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If we were to fully deconstruct The Queenmaker chapter we could identify the repeating aspects of the time loop. In each loop there is a group of people representing the abductors, a prince, a female target, a Kingsguard, and someone is injured. These are the bare bones, so to speak, but each loop has slight variations. Try inserting each female into the loop's formula: Elia, Lyanna, Sansa, then Myrcella, and I think you will see what I'm talking about.

And yep. I'm pretty sure that I get exactly what you're talking about without even going that far. You're exactly right, they are all different variations on a single theme. And I bet we could find even more examples if we think about it. As a matter of fact I think I just did. I'm betting both Gilly and Val would fit to a certain extent as well. I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm right back at looking at all of the different variations of women in a tower. Some jump. Some are pushed. Some are just there. But every single time it seems theres something to do with a child involved. Either that or somehow I've just progressed to making up my own set of patterns. 

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15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In the Volsunga saga, the birth of Volsung occurs only after his mother had been pregnant with him for six winters

Two thoughts:

1. Good thing these weren't ASOIAF's multi-year winters.

2. Volsung also reminds me of the birth process of TWOW.

It seems GRRM has been pregnant with TWOW for almost 25 winters at this point, and actively in labor for the last six.

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Being "ripped untimely from the womb" and therefore "not born of woman" does seem to be a bit of an essential prerequisite for heroes

This also reminds me of the birth process of TWOW, which certainly won't be born of woman.  Nor in a fashion most of us would ever call timely.

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On 01/05/2017 at 4:40 PM, Black Crow said:

Not quite. Sam found mention of their giving the Watch 100 pieces of obsidian every year although he said nothing of when they stopped and in any case 100 pieces each year sounds like a ritual or ritualised tribute rather than a gun-running operation

I was just rereading Sam's chapter from AFFC and noticed that he says "The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes."

So the tribute must have ended sometime after Andal invasion.

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13 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

There's actually a section in ACoK that makes me think that the attack on Elia and the Kingswood Brotherhood in general, instead of being meant to be the primary attack was just something put in place to distract from the whatever the real goal is. In the chapter where Theon first attacks the North and is met by Benfred? Tallhart and his band of young hares there is a lot that brings to mind certain members of the Brotherhood. In particular in the description of Dagmer Cleftjaw. In it Theon sends Dagmer off to Torrhen's Square, not to actually capture it, but rather as a diversion for his true plan of taking Winterfell. Were the Kingswood Brotherhood and the attack on Elia meant to actually be a diversion? 

Great! I'm looking forward to it! I agree that there is a lot of parallels/echoes/mirroring what ever you want to call it in Ned's tourney, both of the tourney at Harrenhall, and I'm pretty sure echoing the history of Westeros and the Long Night. It's been quite a while since I've looked at it, though, so I really need to find the time to read back through in order to remember exactly what it was that I saw. Hopefully I should get some time to do so before the next essay. 

I agree with adding Sansa into that. I also wonder if we might not almost be mistaken to not include both Arya and Tyrion in as well, as both of them were either rescued or taken away as well. For Arya she was rescued by Yoren and with Tyrion he was taken by Cat.

And yep. I'm pretty sure that I get exactly what you're talking about without even going that far. You're exactly right, they are all different variations on a single theme. And I bet we could find even more examples if we think about it. As a matter of fact I think I just did. I'm betting both Gilly and Val would fit to a certain extent as well. I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm right back at looking at all of the different variations of women in a tower. Some jump. Some are pushed. Some are just there. But every single time it seems theres something to do with a child involved. Either that or somehow I've just progressed to making up my own set of patterns. 

You've just identified an event that is another time loop.  A mother, a baby swap, a Lord Commander, and a tower. I'm sure we could identify at least four instances of this same repeating loop as well. The tragedy at Summerhall is another one, with the tower of joy and Mirri's tent revival being repeating loops. How many incarnations of the Blackfyre Rebellion has Westeros seen? (answer: 4) However, after the Tourney of Harrenhal it was Robert's Rebellion. He wasn't a Blackfyre, but he was the biggest threat since. These multiple time loops are camouflaged under the storyline, which is just a redirect in my opinion. And the length of the seasons has something to do with these time loops. At the moment I suspect it has something to do with the Children's use of magic to defend themselves. Working magic is like wielding a two-edged sword without a hilt, right? Even the multiple Brandons...there's always a Brandon. And I think the time loops are what the greenseers use to try and change the future. It's all one big game of Cyvasse. You may not be able to change the past, but by changing the players and how the "playing board" is laid out, you just may be able to change the future outcome.

 

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On 2017-05-04 at 11:56 PM, JNR said:

Here's a little curiosity:

Sure reads like he's not wearing a helm, for Dany to know this from the vision.  Meaning she can see his face. 

Yet she shows no sign of realizing this dying and murmuring prince, whose face she can apparently see, is the same guy she had only just seen here:

Nor does Dany mention the dying and murmuring prince when she discusses this with Mormont:

You'd think it would come up. 

"I saw him twice, and one of those times rubies were coming off his breastplate, and I know that describes Rhaegar because I've been told how Robert killed him at the Trident.  So yes, I'm sure it was Rhaegar in the first vision with the baby."

And the reason why I'm going with this:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

"He is!" Sansa insisted. "I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We'll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you'll see. I'll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he'll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion."

Notice the similarities between the statue of a youth surrounded by six cherry trees like sentinels and Tyrion's description of young Griff.  The notable difference is hair color.  The statue is blonde while the boy hides his hair color by dying it blue.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I

Beneath his window six cherry trees stood sentinel around a marble pool, their slender branches bare and brown. A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo's blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. So lifelike did he seem that it took the dwarf a long moment to realize he was made of painted marble, though his sword shimmered like true steel.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion III

Beyond the tangled willows the road ended abruptly and they turned north for a short ways and rode beside the water, until the brush gave way and they found themselves beside an old stone quay, half-submerged and surrounded by tall brown weeds. "Duck!" came a shout. "Haldon!" Tyrion craned his head to one side, and saw a boy standing on the roof of a low wooden building, waving a wide-brimmed straw hat. He was a lithe and well-made youth, with a lanky build and a shock of dark blue hair. The dwarf put his age at fifteen, sixteen, or near enough to make no matter

 

Then the similarity of eye color for the man in Dany's vision and Tyrion's description of young Griff.

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

"You do not know the river. Wait, and you will see."

The bacon turned crisp, the biscuits golden brown. Young Griff stumbled up onto deck yawning. "Good morrow, all." The lad was shorter than Duck, but his lanky build suggested that he had not yet come into his full growth. This beardless boy could have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms, blue hair or no. Those eyes of his would melt them. Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple. His eyelashes were as long as any woman's.

It could be argued that the statue is of Illyrio; if you choose to believe his story.  But I wouldn't believe his stories any more than Dany or Tyrion. 

 

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11 hours ago, Ckram said:

I was just rereading Sam's chapter from AFFC and noticed that he says "The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes."

So the tribute must have ended sometime after Andal invasion.

I stand [or sit] corrected as to the daggers rather than the "pieces" of dragonglass, although stick with my comment about going up against an ice-sword with just a dagger or spear.

Otherwise you're hitting on the important bit. There is no mention of an event terminating the deal. Effectively the Andal septons who wrote all this down were told that the daggers used to be given once upon a time, but not now. The Andals never conquered the North and never came near the Wall except as captives, so why should the southern pogroms affect the relationship between the tree-huggers and the Watch unless those daggers were given in return for the sacrifices made by the Nights King and his men. 

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It could be argued that the statue is of Illyrio; if you choose to believe his story.  But I wouldn't believe his stories any more than Dany or Tyrion. 

But why doesn't Dany realize or say that she was looking at Rhaegar twice, despite seeing the two visions only moments apart, and apparently seeing his face in both?

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

why should the southern pogroms affect the relationship between the tree-huggers and the Watch unless those daggers were given in return for the sacrifices made by the Nights King and his men. 

I suspect that after so many hundreds of years following the Long Night... a time when the focus of the Watch had shifted to the rapidly-expanding wildling population, and the Popsicles faded from threat to legend to myth... the point of dragonglass daggers became less and less relevant to anybody involved.  Such weapons weren't nearly as useful against wildlings as metal blades.

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

I suspect that after so many hundreds of years following the Long Night... a time when the focus of the Watch had shifted to the rapidly-expanding wildling population, and the Popsicles faded from threat to legend to myth... the point of dragonglass daggers became less and less relevant to anybody involved.  Such weapons weren't nearly as useful against wildlings as metal blades.

Possible, but in story-telling terms I think my version will turn out to be more relevant

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Well, mine already has turned out to be relevant in storytelling terms:

Quote

"The Wall was made to guard the realms of men . . . and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

The LC of the Watch is obviously pretty fair authority on the defense of the realms of men.  Yet here we see that until now, he's been completely oblivious to the value and meaning of dragonglass in that context. 

He doesn't even realize it's volcanic in origin... he wonders if it's created by dragons.  Heh.

And he tells us why he's so ignorant: "too many hundreds and thousands of years" in which dragonglass played no functional role, because the Watch "lost sight of the true enemy."

I think we'll find that the CotF had no more to do with creating or commanding the Popsicles than Craster, and that GRRM thought this all through a great deal better than the HBO guys did.

(And really, this is a thing that the timeline should make pretty plain -- because otherwise the CotF sure have taken their sweet time in leveraging the Popsicles against the Andals who slaughtered them en masse in the south.  That would be tardiness on a scale -- thousands of years -- to put even GRRM to shame.)

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